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Yet another gut bacteria question... lamblia, enterococcus faecalis, citrobacter diversus, Hafnia alvei and clostridium

by (15380) Updated April 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM Created April 12, 2013 at 5:15 PM

I am working with that wacko doctor because ... she is the only normal one I found. She told me to take some anti-parasite medication. I did not believe her so I submitted a stool sample and a blood test to two different labs to confirm her crazy diagnosis. I did not want to take any medicine without a legitimate test.

So I got mostly negative results, except for those:

They found:

Antibodies IgM, IgA and IgG for lamblia. It does not say lamblia gardia, just lamblia.

They also found:

clostridium

enterococcus faecalis

citrobacter diversus

Hafnia alvei

and some other wonderful creatures that I could live without.

My stool test also indicates lack of beneficial bacteria, including lacto and bifido bacteria.

Before I go back to that wacky doctor, I would be thrilled if somebody could answer my questions:

  1. How did those lamblia guys survive if I took Flagyl for like one month? Did they mutate or something?

  2. Do I have to worry about all that patogenic bacteria? Is there a way to get rid of them?

  3. Anything else?

  4. Last but not least. I work with people. Am I contagious?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!! PLEASE SHARE WHAT YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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3 Replies

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3621 · April 12, 2013 at 7:31 PM

The bacteria you listed are completely normal gut flora. However, Clostridrium - often called "C.diff" - can cause major GI problems if it gets a chance to take over (like if the other gut flora were wiped out by heavy anti-biotic use) Flagyl supposedly can keep C.diff in check without causing too much damage to the other guys.. but it can also become resistant.

The reason Flagyl didn't work on the lambia is the same reason the Flagyl didn't kill you -- it is an antibiotic. Antibiotics are formulated to kill bacteria, but lambia is a protozoa - meaning it has a cell structure more like humans than like bacteria - making it immune to antibiotics, just as you are. I don't know how lambia is detected -- sometimes antibodies are used as detection for current infections of things, sometimes antibodies only indicate previous contact. I would confirm with the labs if they believe you have a current lambia infection, and then decide whether you want to do the parasite protocol.

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1600 · April 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

Have you heard of FiveLac or ThreeLac? They are a probiotic manufactured in Japan (I think?) which contains Enterococcus Faecalis.

This was their response to the following question: http://www.thefinchleyclinic.com/shop/article_info.php?articles_id=505#Q12 "I read on another (surprise, surprise, a competitor's) web site that one of the strains of bacteria in Threelac and Fivelac,Enterococcus Faecalis (EF), is toxic. Is this true?"

and from the company that makes fivelac/threelac:

" I want to take this opportunity to comment on Enterococcus Faecalis (EF) over which there has been some controversy. Unknown to many, there are different strains of EF, some of which can be harmful, but the strain of EF used in Threelac and Fivelac is safe according to the manufacturer, and proven over the years with hundreds of millions of packets consumed world-wide with no proven serious side affects, at least to my knowledge, as also claimed by the manufacturer. According to the manufacturer, it is actually the most important ingredient in Threelac and Fivelac. It is found naturally in the human intestine, has been highly refined, sterilized and cultured by the manufacturer, which is a very large, highly respected pharmaceutical company, and they decline to take it out due to its ongoing safety record and enormous importance to the effectiveness of Threelac and Fivelac. GHT alone sells over a million packets a month. The FDA inspects and has released every shipment of Threelac and Fivelac to GHT.

Most of the negative comments about EF are being made or instigated by uninformed overzealous people that are in competition with Threelac and Fivelac, and find any reason they can to try to discredit their competition. Some may have good intentions because of what they may have heard or read, but may not be aware that there are many different strains of EF with different characteristics. Competitors often quote or refer to website links with hearsay, possible phony stories for self-serving purposes, or obsolete scientific or foreign government information that "groups" all EF strains as if they were one, citing only the potential dangers of the bad strains when good strains also exist within the group. Let's face it, if the product was dangerous, the FDA and other governments that have evaluated its safety would not allow it on the market, and the well trenched highly respected manufacturer would not want the liability of a dangerous product. GHT is merely the distributor, but we certainly would not sell a product if proven unsafe."

So I would sort of question, if you have been taking a probiotic? maybe you ate some dirt from some produce? How do you know if you have the toxic strain or the nontoxic strain of those bacteria? Also, E. faecalis is among the most antibiotic resistant bacteria known. (http://web.mst.edu/~microbio/bio221_2005/e_faecalis.htm - source for previous sentence)

so rather than try to eradicate it, I wonder if you would have success with FiveLac or ThreeLac? (although I must admit I'm supplemented out and hate taking them/recommending them)

As another "For Example,"-H. pylori is found in the guts of many healthy people but can also cause issues for others.

You might try asking paul jaminet of PHD if you are following their diet, or if you have the $, consulting with another doctor via skype for about $400. but from what Paul has told me, once you figure out that you have gut issues, it takes time to improve your gut - about 2 years it says in the GAPS book and that has certainly been my experience - I have seen issues get better but not completely resolve which is frustrating, and due to the problems with testing and the treatment, I take their precautionary measures against pathogens by trying to use coconut oil, spices, increasing glutathione production with egg yolks and N-acetyl-cysteine, etc. Also, it's possible that you have a biofilm.

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07/bowel-disease-part-iv-restoring-healthful-gut-flora/ "Pathogenic species known to generate biofilms include Legionella pneumophila, S. aureus, Listeria monocytogenes, Campylobacter spp., E. coli O157:H7, Salmonella typhimurium, Vibrio cholerae, and Helicobacter pylori. http://pmid.us/12194761."

Any of those on your test results? According to the Jaminets, "Biofilms favor the species that constructed them. So, once pathogens have constructed biofilms, it is hard for commensal species to displace them."

These things can help:

"•Polysaccharide and protease digesting enzymes. Human digestive enzymes generally do not digest biofilm polysaccharides, but bacterial enzymes that can are available as supplements. Potentially helpful enzymes include hemicellulase, cellulase, glucoamylase, chitosanase, and beta-glucanase. Non-human protease enzymes, such as nattokinase and papain, might also help. (This is all from their site) •Chelation therapy. Since biofilms collect metals, compounds that “chelate” or bind metals will tend to gather in biofilms. Some chelators – notably EDTA – are toxic to bacteria. So EDTA supplementation tends to poison the biofilm, driving bacteria out of their fortress-shelter. This prevents them from maintaining it and makes the biofilm more vulnerable to digestion by enzymes and commensal bacteria. It also tends to reduce the population of pathogenic bacteria. •Mineral avoidance. The supply of minerals, especially calcium, iron, and magnesium, can be a rate-limiting factor in biofilm formation. Removal of calcium can cause destruction of biofilms. [6] We recommend limiting calcium intake while bowel disease is being fought, since the body can meet its own calcium needs for an extended period by pulling from the reservoir in bone. Upon recovery, bone calcium can be replenished with supplements. Iron is another mineral which promotes biofilms and might be beneficially restricted. We do not recommend restricting magnesium."

(one of the reasons I stopped supplementing more than 200 mg of Magnesium per day!)

A few other remedies can weaken biofilms:

•Acetic acid in vinegar can solubilize the calcium, iron, and magnesium in biofilms, removing these minerals and weakening the biofilm; citric acid binds calcium and can disrupt biofilms. [9] •Lactoferrin, a molecule in milk whey, binds iron and inhibits biofilm formation and growth. [10] •N-acetylcysteine can destroy or inhibit biofilms. [11]

So I would recommend investigating your bacteria more, and possibly adding in N-acetylcysteine (NAC) and some of the other strategies they mention.

Good luck and sorry I wasn't more help. I've seen you give some good advice here and know you have some health struggles but I think you are a critical thinker who will make it through and pay your knowledge forward.

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137 · April 12, 2013 at 5:31 PM

I can't really comment on those types of Bacteria as I know nothing about them. What I do know is that apparently Broccoli Sprouts do help with eliminating some bacteria.. at least that's what my naturopath said.

Couldn't hurt to try.. even if it doesnt, they are quite healthy so you'll benefit either way. If you do choose to pick some up (they are around $3) I think, take about 1/4 cup a day raw.

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