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Vitamin K2 and K1 questions

by (598)
Updated about 12 hours ago
Created February 07, 2014 at 10:25 PM

So if you're getting plenty of K2, do you still need some K1 to help with clotting or something? Leafy greens don't do well in my gut is why I ask. What are the best sources of K2? If I do still need K1, what are some good sources that don't have all the roughage of a salad? Where does "MK7" come into play?

<EDIT>

Gotta love Kresser:

http://chriskresser.com/vitamin-k2-the-missing-nutrient

Clarification would still be awesome and I'm still not clear on whether I need to seek out K1 in addition to K2, or if the K2 from meats, cheeses, and butter is all I really need?

</EDIT>

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91 · June 06, 2014 at 6:58 PM

MK4 is said to be better than MK7

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1005 · February 14, 2014 at 9:28 PM

Interesting on http://books.google.com/books?id=iYVM81WrdMUC&pg=PA139 under "Utilization of Menaquinones from the gut" - Intestinal contents range up to 5100mcg of k2 (my supps are only 100mcg). "Although the extent to which large amounts of menaquinones in the gut can be absorbed is not known, nutrition texts often indicate that they furnish a significant portion of the human requirement. Much of the data to support the view that menaquinones produced in the gut are important is based on the relatively high incidence of vitamin k-responsive, antibiotic-induced hypoprothrombinemia"

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598 · February 14, 2014 at 9:02 PM

I remember reading that the K2 produced by your gut flora mostly remains trapped within their cells. Very little if it becomes available for absorption, which helps to explain the excellent results of K2 supplementation. I'd like to see some studies backing this up but until then I'll eat my cheese and krauts for K2 because why not?

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41544 · February 11, 2014 at 1:25 PM

You're likely overestimating K2 intake, it's pretty easy to get adequate K1 too without large bulky salads. 1 ounce of spinach raw is more than enough, cook it if you're concerned about digestion.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 3:05 AM

LOL. You're insinuating that I'm the guy getting mad.

Most people thought the earth was flat long ago.

No one said humans should consume vegetation as their source of calories.

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1005 · February 11, 2014 at 2:55 AM

http://i.imgur.com/6iunpuj.png

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 2:54 AM

That search doesn't prove anything scientifically.

I've proven above that we humans have bacteria in our colon that can breakdown cellulose, not whole vegetation.

Are you talking about cellulose or what?

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1005 · February 11, 2014 at 2:48 AM

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fiber+in+iceberg+lettuce

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 2:44 AM

Which supposed insoluble fiber are you talking about?

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1005 · February 11, 2014 at 2:27 AM

Iceberg lettuce has a 4:1 ratio of insoluble to soluble fiber. http://i.imgur.com/6iunpuj.png

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 2:25 AM

My rhetorical question was to point out how arrogant you are.

Has it ever crossed your mind that humans have bacteria in their guts that can breakdown toxins?

Who said meat is toxic? RAW meat is harmless and just a survival food however cooked meat is harmful. How many people actually consume or would consume raw meat?

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 2:14 AM

You're the one who is indoctrinated and on a pedestal. I ain't Vegan.

Wikipedia is written by brainwashed sheeps like yourself.

Below is one specie of bacteria in the human colon that can break down cellulose; not whole vegetation. Hopefully you can find Cellulose on the chart.

http://www.genome.jp/kegg-bin/show_pathway?org_name=btp&mapno=00500&mapscale=&show_description=hide

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3642284/

I said humans can break down cellobiose.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 2:11 AM

This is false. Lettuce is 100% soluble when consumed raw and chewed properly.

Chris Kresser has tunnel vision and doesn't know anything about bacteriology.

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1005 · February 11, 2014 at 1:39 AM

Vegetables (as well as some fruits) are often high in insoluble fiber. While soluble fiber can be soothing for the gut, consuming large amounts of insoluble fiber when your gut is inflamed is a little bit like rubbing a wire brush against an open wound. Vegetables that are high in insoluble fiber include lettuce.

http://chriskresser.com/got-digestive-problems-take-it-easy-on-the-veggies

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612 · February 11, 2014 at 1:38 AM

Your indoctrination is strong vegan. If you had half a working brain you would know that breaking down cellulose requires cellulase which humans do not have the ability to produce (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose#Breakdown_.28cellulolysis.29), this process requires symbiotic anaerobic bacteria which are present in the guts of ruminants like cows and sheep but not in humans. If humans could digest cellulose we could live off of grass. Get an education vegan, your ignorance is showing.

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612 · February 11, 2014 at 1:33 AM

Persin is harmless to humans (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persin) you're vastly ignorant on this matter. No cats and dogs do not handle toxins better. Meat has less toxins than plants. Hypercarnivores like cats even have decreased glucuronidation capacity (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UGT1A6) because they rarely ingest plant toxins and therefore such functionality would be superfluous. By the way if meat was toxic, why aren't you dead? Your entire body is made from it.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 12:45 AM

I said if other apes can consume them; then so can we.

We do have many different types of bacteria in the colon that can break down cellulose and cellobiose; not WHOLE vegetation and not vegetation covered in oils. We humans also have our own enzymes to break down cellobiose. The difference between us and a gorilla is that we have a big brain that understands the importance of chewing our food properly before ingesting it. Gorillas on the other hand, crap out a lot of undigested plant matter because they don't chew it properly.

Please get educated in subjects you have no clue about.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 12:25 AM

I didn't say ALL plants that produce seeds want to be eaten.

Cats and dogs are carnivores... shouldn't they handle toxins better?

Unripe avocados might kill a cat since unripe avocados contain persin. Persin is also harmful to humans. Ever eaten an unripe avocado and experienced a stomach ache and dizziness?

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612 · February 11, 2014 at 12:19 AM

The flawed logic is on your part, saying "if other animals can consume them so can we". That is complete nonsensical bullshit. Can you eat grass? How about tree bark? Any luck digesting cellulose? Of course not, you're an idiotic vegan who doesn't realize the irony of accusing others precisely of what you are doing. The only generalizing here by claiming the magical properties of plants is yourself. Sure some plants are good, while others are shit. Think before you speak.

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612 · February 11, 2014 at 12:15 AM

Some plant want certain parts of their to be eaten, these generally be the fruits. Fruits were designed to be eaten and then their seeds transported by the consuming animal and planted by defecation. Seeds however, like grains, legumes and others contains chemicals which do cause damage (even if minute to us humans, since we have very powerful livers) when consumed. Try feeding an avocado or a piece of chocolate to a cat. Perfectly harmless right? Wrong, since cats don't have livers as powerful as ours (we are omnivores and thus handle toxins better), they will die from these plant toxins

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 11, 2014 at 12:00 AM

Nice comeback. Whatever floats your boat wendy.

Take anti-inflammatory pills or grow your own lettuce. You decide.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 10, 2014 at 11:56 PM

Not all plants are assholes. There is many plants that WANT to be eaten after they have produced their seeds.

Generalizing isn't helping anyone.

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598 · February 10, 2014 at 11:45 PM

You still strike me as a bit of a moron, making such silly comments and assertions, but I have to admit butterhead lettuce sounds pretty good. Maybe I'll get some of that and see if it's a little easier on my gut than the more fibrous veggies and greens I had a lot of recently. Trouble is it's a bit pricey.

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612 · February 10, 2014 at 11:41 PM

Plants do contain many naturally occurring chemicals designed to ward off animals from eating them. It is a form of protection employed to protect from predation since they can't run away. You don't actually think that living creatures (plants are alive) like being killed do you? This is why the plant kingdom uses toxins to defend itself. For example: cyanide, ricin, alkaloids, etc. are all produced by plants to try to kill you before you eat them. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Plant_toxins, you might learn something.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 10, 2014 at 11:30 PM

oxalic acid in spinach.

You are most likely overcooking those veggies at high temperatures and producing advanced glycation end products.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 10, 2014 at 11:28 PM

You do. Leafy greens are not roughage unless you're consuming grass, spinach, etc..

I consume RAW "tender" butterhead lettuce without condiments and it healed my intestine.

Medium avatar
598 · February 10, 2014 at 11:23 PM

You're pretty far off. What kind of moron thinks "all plants cause inflammation"? And why would I compare myself with "other apes" when I'm actually a human? And where do you get off assuming you know what I'm thinking, taking some random shit out of thin air, then telling me I have "flawed logic"?

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1005 · February 10, 2014 at 10:36 PM

Lactococcus Lactis is a good one http://www.lens.org/lens/patent/WO_2012_022670_A1

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1005 · February 10, 2014 at 10:28 PM

On this page:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/misc_topics/vitamink.html

I see a quote "Vitamin K is found in a number of foods, including leafy greens, cauliflower and, if you consider it a food, liver. However, the chief source of vitamin K is synthesis by bacteria in the large intestine, and in most cases, absence of dietary vitamin K is not at all deleterious."

I would like to see a study backing that up, but it suggests you might want to look into fermented foods / probiotics. For the bacteria to produce K2, they would need the raw quinone in your diet.

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1005 · February 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/141/8/1451.full.pdf+html mentions cooking with antioxidants also improves your lipid profile and insulin resistance. I'm able to handle fiber, but it doesn't seem particularly essential to me. If cooking works better for you, cook em all up. Maybe after you avoid the problem foods for a while, they won't be a problem in moderation.

Do you eat much probiotic rich food? Fermented veggies are a way to predigest them for your digestive system. A good microbiota synthesizes vitamin k2 in your intestines.

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612 · February 10, 2014 at 8:21 PM

2 oz is 40%, that's a pretty darn good start. Pouring it on your food is a pleasant way to enjoy it. I pour it on just about everything.

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1262 · February 10, 2014 at 7:59 PM

Vitamin K deficiency is rare. nutritiondata says just about any leaf is a rich source. Probably you are OK. You can always add some dried stuff in soups, or some raw parsley in things that go well with it.

Medium avatar
598 · February 10, 2014 at 7:49 PM

I just cut out almost all greens to avoid a total breakdown of my digestive system as I was doing so good before. Getting back on track now, been about 5 days since I ate ANY highly fibrous veggies. I seem to do a lot better with cooked ones and I'm glad to hear that K doesn't degrade too much with heat. I love me some Brussels sprouts. Problem is I also just LOVE sald and I really wish I could eat it without feeling like crap the next day. It seems so counterintuitive, I wonder if there's some other underlying problem I could fix?

Medium avatar
598 · February 10, 2014 at 7:47 PM

I'm not a fan of eating straight oil, though I do like to use way more of it than suggested in recipes. I think I get at most 2 ounces some days.

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8 Answers

Medium avatar
0
91 · June 06, 2014 at 6:57 PM

MK4 is said to be better than MK7

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0 · June 06, 2014 at 6:24 PM

Hey there @Methodician

I had Dr. Justin answer your question on BWR. Your question was answered at (1:30)

http://beyondwellnessradio.com/beyond-wellness-radio-episode-4-listener-questions/

I know this is super late, but I hope it is helpful.

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17402 · February 15, 2014 at 4:02 PM

We mostly need K2 (along with magnesium and D3 for their calcium routing effects). We can convert a little bit of K1 into K2, and we get plenty of K1 from greens, so K2 in the MK7 form is the thing to get.

You could make natto out of very well soaked and washed lentils and avoid the nasty issues of soy, or get MK7 supplements, or get it from meats/egg yolks/cheeses.

I tend to favor going for lots of egg yolks without the whites anyway, and the occasional chicken liver from a whole chicken.

As an aside, I roast the chicken with some salt and herbs and some sliced potatoes (the chicken fat drains out of the chicken and coats the potato slices), then once cooled strip it down into parts and take the bones out for broth, and lightly saute the liver and gizzards in butter with a bit of salt, pepper, and turmeric. (It's even tastier if you replace the chicken with a duck.)

I simmer the bones in a crockpot on high for 24h with a tablespoon of salt and white vinegar, then remove the bones and cool, and skim whatever fat floats (after this long, the fat becomes a bit rancid, so out it goes.)

It's easier to strip the meat out of it once it's been cooked, so you can get at the pockets of meat on the back such as "the oysters" and rib meat. To the broth I add veggies (onion, potato, celery, turnip, parsley, cilantro, parsnips) and maybe some rice noodles, to make soup from the broth and when it's almost done, throw back the stripped bits of meat. Throw in a couple of egg yolks into the soup along with some lemon juice and serve. So this way you get several dishes out of one chicken.

Livers are also a good indicator of the health of the beast you're eating - if you see something mushy and shapeless, you probably don't want to eat that chicken.

So from the chicken breast, soup with yolk, and liver, we get plenty of K2 for several days a week, and it makes a nice contrasting change from all the grassfed beef and beef liver.

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1262 · February 11, 2014 at 12:32 AM

I tend to agree with "neutral taste" greens being non inflammatory. What we are saying is no spinach, no sorrel, no arugula, no turnip greens. Chard, kale, fava greens and collards are probably halfway, but leaf (not heading) lettuce, corn salad, radicchio (after frost), and also potherbs like bok choi, nettles and beet greens are not likely to irritate the gut. Sprouts such as alfalfa and fenugreek, if very fresh, are probably fairly soothing too.

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0 · February 10, 2014 at 11:19 PM

Leafy greens have been shown to heal the intestine, most of them have a neutral taste and there is many different varieties of leafy greens... some tender and some not. If leafy greens did mess up the intestine; then other apes wouldn't consume them. But I think you are thinking.. grains cause inflammation to the intestine, grains are plants, therefore all plants cause inflammation to the intestine. Flawed logic on your part.

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1005 · February 11, 2014 at 1:39 AM

Vegetables (as well as some fruits) are often high in insoluble fiber. While soluble fiber can be soothing for the gut, consuming large amounts of insoluble fiber when your gut is inflamed is a little bit like rubbing a wire brush against an open wound. Vegetables that are high in insoluble fiber include lettuce.

http://chriskresser.com/got-digestive-problems-take-it-easy-on-the-veggies

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612 · February 10, 2014 at 11:41 PM

Plants do contain many naturally occurring chemicals designed to ward off animals from eating them. It is a form of protection employed to protect from predation since they can't run away. You don't actually think that living creatures (plants are alive) like being killed do you? This is why the plant kingdom uses toxins to defend itself. For example: cyanide, ricin, alkaloids, etc. are all produced by plants to try to kill you before you eat them. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Plant_toxins, you might learn something.

Medium avatar
598 · February 10, 2014 at 11:23 PM

You're pretty far off. What kind of moron thinks "all plants cause inflammation"? And why would I compare myself with "other apes" when I'm actually a human? And where do you get off assuming you know what I'm thinking, taking some random shit out of thin air, then telling me I have "flawed logic"?

Medium avatar
0
598 · February 10, 2014 at 7:53 PM

I'd still like to know if there's a nutritional requirement for K1 or if I can just get my K2 and stop worrying about it?

It seems like I can get plenty of K2 without the greens. I can also get just enough K by cooking with herbs and eating cooked greens in moderation. Cooked spinach messes me up bad, but I can eat things like broccoli and brussel sprouts in moderation and do okay when I herb up my meats, soups, and stews but often do not do this simply because they're good enough without the extra herbs, and fresh herbs aren't always convenient.

231ce52273639e12b524dab5bb4718b7
0 · February 10, 2014 at 11:30 PM

oxalic acid in spinach.

You are most likely overcooking those veggies at high temperatures and producing advanced glycation end products.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41544 · February 11, 2014 at 1:25 PM

You're likely overestimating K2 intake, it's pretty easy to get adequate K1 too without large bulky salads. 1 ounce of spinach raw is more than enough, cook it if you're concerned about digestion.

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1262 · February 10, 2014 at 7:59 PM

Vitamin K deficiency is rare. nutritiondata says just about any leaf is a rich source. Probably you are OK. You can always add some dried stuff in soups, or some raw parsley in things that go well with it.

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1005 · February 07, 2014 at 10:34 PM

Are you able to eat cooked greens? The bioavailability of K doesn't decrease much when heated. Some green onions in your stews, basil and herbs on meats, and veg like steamed broccoli and grilled asparagus should get you there. Cooking and marinating with greens helps to prevent the other nutrients and fats from oxidizing.

Medium avatar
598 · February 10, 2014 at 7:49 PM

I just cut out almost all greens to avoid a total breakdown of my digestive system as I was doing so good before. Getting back on track now, been about 5 days since I ate ANY highly fibrous veggies. I seem to do a lot better with cooked ones and I'm glad to hear that K doesn't degrade too much with heat. I love me some Brussels sprouts. Problem is I also just LOVE sald and I really wish I could eat it without feeling like crap the next day. It seems so counterintuitive, I wonder if there's some other underlying problem I could fix?

Medium avatar
598 · February 14, 2014 at 9:02 PM

I remember reading that the K2 produced by your gut flora mostly remains trapped within their cells. Very little if it becomes available for absorption, which helps to explain the excellent results of K2 supplementation. I'd like to see some studies backing this up but until then I'll eat my cheese and krauts for K2 because why not?

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612 · February 07, 2014 at 10:33 PM

Olive oil: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/509/2. Get extra virgin if possible. I'm aware you have to consume about 5 ounces to get 100% RDA, but if you do keto, that isn't a problem.

Medium avatar
598 · February 10, 2014 at 7:47 PM

I'm not a fan of eating straight oil, though I do like to use way more of it than suggested in recipes. I think I get at most 2 ounces some days.

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