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Tell me about your personal experience with Chris Kresser

by (2437)
Updated about 22 hours ago
Created March 25, 2012 at 12:04 AM

I would like to go see him for hormone and possible autoimmune reasons but his reviews online are less then stellar. Then again Ive had some good luck following some of his articles. Is this a case of good researcher but bad practitioner (as some college professors are known to be) or have people seen great personal benefit from seeing him? He is super expensive ...$550 ish for first apt so want to make sure its worth it.

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0 · August 11, 2014 at 6:36 PM

That is such a pity! I have always rated Chris's opinions on Paleo Nutrition. Sad to think he might not be as helpful as his fee warrants

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17103 · August 11, 2014 at 10:26 AM

Why are you sneaking in links to commercial sites in here? Would you like to be banned for spamming?

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10176 · April 19, 2014 at 9:15 AM

The best medical advice I got was from my doctor, who could look at my tests, and me, and ask me what I'd done to screw up my diet. It didn't take more than a minute to sort it out. It required a personal visit to someone familiar with me for 10 years though.

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8065 · April 19, 2014 at 4:27 AM

I've noticed the robotic tone in his podcasts and his somewhat dogged focus on minute detail. All I can think of when I hear him is "Aspergers". My nephew has AS, very bright (a PhD candidate) but lacking in "people" skills. I wouldn't be surprised if that shoe fits for Kresser.

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4873 · September 29, 2013 at 5:59 PM

Our healthcare system is BEYOND broken as a result of reductionist thinking and the compartmentalization of health care. One of the HUGE benefits of seeing a L.Ac is that they are extensively trained in nutrition and do not rely on segmenting health into components. L.Acs are trained to examine systems, which is a very different perspective from MDs.

For you to discount a medical practice that requires 4 years of graduate level study, including both Western and Eastern diagnoses (yes, FOUR YEARS, just like MDs), is blatantly ignorant

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529 · September 29, 2013 at 12:10 PM

@Charlie 1

This is very well written, and thoughtful.

Thank you for posting it.

Any chance you'd be willing to follow up on what happened (2 1/2 years later)?

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56606 · September 07, 2013 at 1:28 AM

not banned, just downvoted :)

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156 · March 29, 2012 at 12:50 AM

Also, just to be clear, nothing I've said here should be construed as anything negative about Kresser. I still might consult him again in the future.

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156 · March 29, 2012 at 12:37 AM

Yeah I feel in over my head too. I just have a bunch of weird, mostly minor symptoms and abnormal test results and no one seems to be sure how they fit together. There have been a couple theories, but they don't really fit all the evidence. Using this, there aren't many areas I feel like I've ruled out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgical_sieve Did your rheumatologist feel like there were any clues as to what is causing your problems, or advice on what you should do next? I'll send you an email later.

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1198 · March 28, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Oh, and by the way, I went to a rheumy and after an hour of questions, examination, medical/family history, and going over blood tests, she says she honestly doubts SLE or something similar. No antibody tests ordered. She took me seriously and I trust her evaluation. I have to remember the only thing that tipped me in this direction was a barely positive ANA. The symptoms are minor enought to be anything, really.

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1198 · March 28, 2012 at 8:56 PM

Not_James, I almost feel uncomfortable posting so much about Kresser's methods on a public forum. Might be easier if you e-mail me: everet.swadson at the-email-provider-that-everyone-uses.com. I'm starting to get in over my head with this stuff.

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1198 · March 28, 2012 at 8:51 PM

dsohei, I was only low carb for a few months, mostly an over-dramatic response to acne. The mysterioous symptoms got worse then but certainly didn't originate with low carb. I've explored everything with thyroid, which both Kresser and I suspected from the get-go. It seems fine.

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2437 · March 27, 2012 at 7:57 PM

I disagree with people saying people only leave bad reviews. I work with dentists for a living and many have glowing reviews. In my experience the ones with bad reviews actually deserved them. Hence why I asked the question

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1786 · March 27, 2012 at 9:26 AM

Because, what if its not autoimmunity, what if its low thyroid or something along those lines

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1786 · March 27, 2012 at 9:22 AM

Streak, have u been low Carb for a while?

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 5:11 AM

Yes, I've had mild lymphocytopenia for at least about two years. Not sure about before then because I never got a WBC diff. The lymph count got brought up because of recurrent minor illnesses a couple years ago, then more recently the flushing/hypertension/photosensitivity/myriad weird symptoms started or worsened. I'm actually not sure if I've had free T3 checked; the labwork I have with me just mentions TSH, T4, Free T4, and T3 uptake. I guess I need more tests?

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 4:51 AM

That's very typical. And ur there consistently, not because u had a cold, right. How's your Free T3? A high Rev T3 with 4-6 WBC is very typical for hypothyroid, 90% of which is Hashimoto's, i.e., autoimmune. But not all test + on TPO/TG. All that will show is that you COULD be hypothyroid and have an autoimmune condition. This is not an exact science.

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 4:16 AM

Thanks for the ideas. WBC is around 4.5, mild lymphocytopenia at 0.9-1.4. (This is normal on some reference ranges, particularly in the US; apparently British people have more lymphocytes.) Haven't had TP or TGO tested, I guess because T3/T4/TSH were totally normal, but will look into that per your suggestion. I'll ask the derm about a biopsy, but I have a feeling he's just going to get out his prescription pad.

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 3:58 AM

Also, you could do a biopsy of your facial rash by a dermy and that could confirm whether it's lupus. That is, if +, then lupus, if -, then you still don't know. You could be ANA- but if tissue + with symptoms, you could be dxed then.

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 3:45 AM

I think low WBC is typical for most people with autoimmune diseases. How low is it? The typical pattern is not out of the range but low-normal, like 4-6. Also, about 95% of SLE sufferers are ANA positive, so if you're not positive with only symptoms, you might not be diagnosed. But symptoms can always show up later. Light sensitivity also typical for most connective tissue AI sufferers. Did you get your TP and TGO tested -- they overlap with ANAs. If not tested yet, I'd show studies showing Hashimoto's overlap with SLE, Sjogren's, etc. That's probably the easiest way to confirm autoimmunity.

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 2:46 AM

Oh sorry that was anticardiolipin antibody, not anticentromere. Yeah this is confusing. : (

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 2:44 AM

Interestingly all the autoimmune bloodwork has been negative/normal so far, which is making me suspect some other source of a problem like cortisol from a pituitary tumor (which are surprisingly common).

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 2:42 AM

Hi Namby Pamby, my GP thinks I have some SLE-like condition, because of my depressed lymphocyte count, low platelets, and photosensitive malar rash/flushing, plus some other weird symptoms. ACA was probably for antiphospholipid/Hughes', which sometimes accompanies SLE. I got tested for SSB/La as well (was going by memory earlier, sorry). It is confusing for me too. I think my GP might be pushing the limits of his expertise, but wants to help and is willing to run tests. I was expecting to get told I was fine & referral to a psychiatrist. Prob. going to see a rheum and derm soon.

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 12:08 AM

Ok, not james, I've been tested for all those antibodies except for ACA, which is centromere and is for scleroderma. U have CREST? The whole alphabet soup can be perplexing and it confused the heck out of my PCP, who's a gastroenterologist of all things. He hadn't a foggiest idea what I was being tested for and why I needed them. Why only SSA/Ro, not SSB/La? Sounds like some COBOL programmer creating spaghetti codes. Mork calling Orson, come in Orson.

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24523 · March 26, 2012 at 11:37 PM

You can try going to a rheumatologist / general practitioner who has research interests in the type of stuff you're looking for. Although I'm sure you've thought of this, since you live in the Bay Area, UCSF and Stanford can be goldmines. Cheaper going through insurance, once you find a good doc.

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66 · March 26, 2012 at 11:05 PM

I think we, the collective consumer we, should begin to skew the negative collective consumer result, and always send in our kudos whenever possible. We need to change and we want it now! It's true, the Internet is chock full of sick people; the well folks are out living life. I know, I gots lots of BS goin' on.

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156 · March 26, 2012 at 10:33 PM

StreakofLean, thanks... I was actually more interested in the case review labwork. I suppose I might pay to find out the next time I get stuck. I'm a little reluctant because it probably mostly overlaps with stuff I or my GP have already done.

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156 · March 26, 2012 at 10:31 PM

I was able to get screening for about 8 antibodies (ANA, anti-dsDNA, ACA, anti-ENA, anti-SSA/Ro, anti-neutrophil, RNP, La, anti-CCP) at the GP level without having to be pushy. Might have gotten something different from a rheumatologist, however many rheumatologists are very focused on joint pain and may think your issues aren't rheumatological if joint pain isn't one of your symptoms.

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5132 · March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Streak, the reason why I say a conventional rheumy might be better positioned is because there are literarry hundreds of different varieties of connective tissue diseases. And more than a dozen antibody tests. A nonspecialist simply doesn't know. The closest specialist to a rheumy would be a neuro or an endo, and they don't know either, since they don't deal with connective tissues. Based on your ANA+ and skin flush, you need a minimum of double strand DNA Ab for SLE.

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24523 · March 26, 2012 at 9:13 PM

Okay, someone has started the ball rolling. You only need two more downvotes. Go ahead, if you ever wanted to say something dumb, now is the chance.

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24523 · March 26, 2012 at 8:15 PM

Yes, and only 15 people have earned it. If you want to type something dumb, I can downvote you, and you can be on your way! http://paleohacks.com/badges/36/peer-pressure#axzz1qFLbk1mK

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1198 · March 26, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Not_James, the bloodwork he did after the initial screening? The case review bloodwork is pretty extensive, I couldn't even summarize it. But the additional tests he ordered, as I remember, were an Immunosciences Autoimmune Panel, Metametrix Organic Basix Profile, and a full thryroid lab from Labcorp (antibodies, free T4, c-reactive preotein, free T3).

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1198 · March 26, 2012 at 6:40 PM

Geoff, yeah, the reason I went to Chris is because I didn't want to take this all on myself. I had tried with self-experimentation, and it was a maddening miserable dead end. That sounds like a good protocol, and may work, but what do you do when it doesn't and provides almost no answers for you? That's where I was. Your other path, as Namby says, is dealing with conventional doctors, wherein you won't even be acknowledged as anything but a crackpot, especially before you had any relevant testing, which they won't order for you, because you're a crackpot....

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1198 · March 26, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Namby: Thanks! I have my first rheumy appointment tomorrow. When I asked for a referral from my PCP, he told me my symptoms/test results were "not clinically significant." Squeezed it out of him anyways. for diet, what's strange is when I ate closest to autoimmune, very strictly, I felt the worst. Perhaps because I didn't know how to do it yet, and so also was limping along on this really limited low-carb thing. What I[m doing now is being patient and diagnostic, no supplements, eating a very doable diet, and seeing what happens, getting a kind of baseline.

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11111 · March 26, 2012 at 2:35 PM

Love that name @ ZombieApocalypseKitten !

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56606 · March 26, 2012 at 5:09 AM

to get banned you have to actually saw something offensive like "all the mods are goats and vegans rulez, here is a link to buy some Viagra!"

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66 · March 26, 2012 at 2:53 AM

Never been much of a sissy, so I'll leave it as a "badge" of ignorance ;-)

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5132 · March 26, 2012 at 2:47 AM

Also, to Streak, I realize ur in a rush to solve this autoimmunity, but you've got to give it some time. Have your diet as close to the autoimmune diet as possible; to do that, you have to explore new food sources and that will take time. I would reserve LDN for when you fail to reduce your symptoms via diet; but from what I'm hearing, your symptoms aren't that serious ... except for a numb feet ... unexplained neuropathy that may completely immobilize your foot is a serious issue. I would still look for a competent rheumy that is used to testing antibodies for Sjogren's, CREST, RA and SLE.

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5132 · March 26, 2012 at 2:35 AM

Holy basil from a naturopath? Well, I think in many cases, we simply don't know still. At least the doc here odered a slew of relevant tests. You don't know how much time you'll be wasting beating around the bush with someone from alleopathic medicine. It took me 3 years to find an endo who would order thyroid antibody tests for me.

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2437 · March 25, 2012 at 11:19 PM

Im asking this genuinely. It seems like the above is what you'll get from a paleo doc and then maybe things like holy basil if youre stressed out??

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2437 · March 25, 2012 at 11:16 PM

So basically order a full thyroid, vit D, c-reactive protein test, etc yourself online and save a bunch of dough? That is actually what my gut instinct was telling me was the proper course of action. It seems like the bottom line is autoimmune Paleo as a base, get your vitamin D up, supplement with magnesium and get a full thyroid test to see what to do with iodine. Then ride that out for 30 days and either add foods back in or tweak from there. Also, get stress and sleep in as much control as possible. Doesnt seem like there is much more then this does there?

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15003 · March 25, 2012 at 10:18 PM

You could make lemonade out of lemons if you want. You can delete your response and actually get the "peer pressure" badge ;).

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 10:04 PM

Now that I know how NOT to answer (!), THANK you for your well-written short analysis. This really sums it up for me & to keep searching for a practitioner; actually, this and other "findings" particular to my search [for one who isn't my freakin' doctor]. Am I allowed to acknowledge the OP or is that against PH bylaws?

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156 · March 25, 2012 at 9:53 PM

Also have to agree with you about there being some value in ruling things out. In any discipline, sometimes when you can't figure what something is, you have to figure out what it isn't.

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 9:52 PM

yes it was obviously very complicated.

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156 · March 25, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Hey, thanks for posting this. I'm always interested in what you say, partly because we have some overlapping weird problems. If you have time, could you summarize what bloodwork he used for screening?

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3049 · March 25, 2012 at 9:40 PM

Thank you for taking the time to post a review of your experience.

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1040 · March 25, 2012 at 3:53 PM

People don't tend to speak up unless they've had a bad experience. Anyone who's done any time in customer service knows this. It makes getting a 'kudo' much more meaningful.

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1467 · March 25, 2012 at 10:17 AM

wow. He sounds like a douche on the reviews but anonymous online reviews should be taken with a pinch of salt.

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5043 · March 25, 2012 at 6:48 AM

That's the difference between comments and answers. If you have an answer, answer. IF you have a comment, comment. Not too complicated.

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 6:04 AM

I'm laughing -- I think I have to read the FAQ cuz I do not quite understand the gestalt here @PH. Like, I don't think I intended to "answer" the OP. Am I banned for life!?

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 4:59 AM

Fresh out of elaboration except I have attempted to get through the process to "see" Chris; it's a process that can leave one with a lot of doubt.

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7275 · March 25, 2012 at 4:47 AM

This answer is not very helpful without some elaboration.

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156 · March 25, 2012 at 1:42 AM

Guessing the bad reviews are some of these: http://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/3240944/CHRIS-KRESSER-BERKELEY-CA.html (I don't know enough to comment on them.)

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56606 · March 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

he has bad online reviews?

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156 · March 25, 2012 at 1:36 AM

Here is what he told me regarding possible autoimmune issues: diagnosing autoimmune issues via blood tests can be difficult. You may have to assume you have an autoimmune condition and act as if you did -- try the paleo autoimmune protocol, for example. Look at glutathione repletion, B12 levels, and vitamin D levels. You could ask your doctor for a breakdown of levels of Th1 and Th2 cytokines. This advice was tailored to the symptoms and test results I described, so what he would tell you would likely differ.

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156 · March 25, 2012 at 1:30 AM

I only saw him once, for a 15 minute consult, but he had some helpful & reasonable advice for me. I haven't worked with him beyond that for now because I live in another country, making ordering lab work somewhat difficult.

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1118 · March 25, 2012 at 12:47 AM

I'd love to know if you get responses. I live in san francisco and I too am considering going to see him.

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7275 · March 25, 2012 at 12:22 AM

See similar post: http://paleohacks.com/questions/66222/has-anyone-consulted-with-chris-kresser-wolf-other-guru-in-the-flesh

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195 · May 20, 2012 at 12:52 AM

I tend to be more of a lurker than a poster, but I think it's important to share that I didn't have a good experience with Chris Kresser, either. The other reviews here touch on all the same problems I had: he is very expensive, 'prescribes' excessive amounts of expensive supplements without checking in on their efficacy, comes off as arrogant and didn't seem to really like talking during our phone consultations, seems fairly indifferent to patient health issues, and has unpleasant and sometimes unresponsive office staff. I saw another review on another site where the poster said he was uncomfotable with Chris's "aggressive business practices" and I very much agree. We all need to make a living, but this seemed to bleed a little bit too far into the realm of taking advantage of people.

Most importantly, many rounds of testing and more than $1000 later, (yes, I'm a fool, but I felt desperate) he didn't enlighten me to anything that led to any resolution of my symptoms. My impression of him is one of someone who speaks with great respect and deference to people he wants to impress, such as other big names in Paleoland, but treats others, like his patients who are paying him huge sums of money, with a dismissive and somewhat condescending attitude. The indifference leave me feeling a little violated, having shared such intimate details of my health, in the sincere hope that he could help.

If you need help, I don't think Chris Kresser's practice is a good place to look.

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0 · September 14, 2014 at 12:07 AM

funny you read his little "about me" on his website and he expresses how he spent so much money on indifferent doctors that couldnt get him better... he sounds like he became what he used to condone... money changes everyone

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0 · August 11, 2014 at 6:36 PM

That is such a pity! I have always rated Chris's opinions on Paleo Nutrition. Sad to think he might not be as helpful as his fee warrants

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1198 · March 25, 2012 at 9:34 PM

Ok, so I'm the one who posted a similar question a few months ago when I was on the fence about seeing him, and I did indeed end up making the plunge. I'll try to answer this, but I've not yet settled on an opinion about his practice.

So, I started having these weird symptoms pop up post-paleo. You can read any of my other PH questions to hear me obsessively whining about it. After getting nowhere with my PCP, I turned to Kresser. We did the case review, which is essentially a comprehensive (our kind of comprehensive) blood panel, a long questionnaire, and an hour review with Kresser where he outlines a treatment plan. I live in SF, so I went to his office. Most of the bloodwork came back fine, which was actually kind of dissapointing, not that I wished anything was wrong, but something WAS wrong and I was desperate for a culprit. He was really thorough with the review, explaining to me what each test result meant and asking me questions about my symptoms. To follow up, Kresser ordered a full thyroid panel, an autoimmune panel, and an organic acids test. His supplement treatment for the interim mostly addressed my acne, along with a low-histamine/tyramine diet. He also ordered two adrenal-support supplements to normalize my sleep pattern, which was slowly getting worse along with the other symptoms.

And because I'm an ass who worries too much, the cracks started to show: The outlined diet seemed out of left field, really. He mentions it in a podcast, that helped his patients, but in ALL of the reading I've done about diet and acne, such a thing has never come up. His outlined diet was copied verbatum (including typos) from a website addressing uticaria. Then came the $600 charge for all the tests and supplements, in addition to the $550 from the actual case review. His acne herb tincture had alcohol, which I couldn't take because I'm a recovering alcoholic, something I'd mentioned almost too frequently. I wondered if it was truly OK to take a gob of the FCLO he suggested every day on such a diet because it's probably the most histamine rich substance I could imagine. I also had the morbid fear that I was simply reacting to something in my diet that I hadn't figured out yet, something that no practitioner could really find out for me. Basically, I got lost in my own head again, which isn't Kresser's fault.

The follow-up tests showed nothing but a minor irregularity in the autoimmune panel, "not really a slam dunk" he said, so he ordered a glutathione recycler, suggested whey peptides, and told me to look into LDN (which I would have to get from Thomas Cowan in SF, hundreds of more dollars). So, at this point, I was suppossed to be taking the following: FCLO, Zinc, Selenium, Glutathione Recycler 3x a day, two adrenal support supplements 4x a day, whey, the herb tincture 4x a day, vitamin D, and a probiotic powder. It was getting absurb, and my symptoms got worse, so I stopped ALL supplements besides vitamin D, and things have been getting better. So, yeah, what did I just spend $1200 dollars on? I have to build everything from scratch now, and the bookmark for Paleohacks gets worn out again.

To me, his use of supplements was excessive, and expensive. I felt like we were throwing supplements at the symptoms before having a clear framework about their causes. That was the whole point of going to Kresser, to find the cause. I just didn't buy the pitch that all of these supplements where somehow going to constelate into a solution, a mindset that I myself am guilty of, and it truly seemed more likely that any one of them could cause more reactions, diluting my assesment of what's going on, but that's another rant. However, I think all of this has way more to do with the elusive nature of whatever is happening to my body rather than Chris's practice. Most problems won't get by the blood tests and his nuanced interpretation of them. It was also helpful in definitvely ruling out a TON of stuff, thus saving me the headspace. When a doctor orders a TSH, I'm still left wondering, but when Chris Kresser orders a full thyroid panel and assures me that it's fine, then I can look elswhere, because heck, I do trust the guy's judgement concerning certain things.

Edit after pondering: You know, the only other thing that showed up on any of Chris's testing, on the organic acids test, was an anomaly he said usually correlates with over-supplementation of n3. I've never taken more than maybe gram or two of fish oil a day, and not consistently, but they are lurking there in the fridge and I've more or less supplemented with them for about a year, as it smoothed out my skin. Now, that's a pretty wild thing to discover through testing, to Chris's credit, and seeing how my abrupt elimination of all supplements has brought nothing but improvement, there's a chance that he DID in fact figure out what's going on. Then again, I have ideas like this every time the symptoms calm down, because I just match the improvement to whatever kooky scheme I tried last. In the coming days I'll test and see.

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156 · March 29, 2012 at 12:50 AM

Also, just to be clear, nothing I've said here should be construed as anything negative about Kresser. I still might consult him again in the future.

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156 · March 29, 2012 at 12:37 AM

Yeah I feel in over my head too. I just have a bunch of weird, mostly minor symptoms and abnormal test results and no one seems to be sure how they fit together. There have been a couple theories, but they don't really fit all the evidence. Using this, there aren't many areas I feel like I've ruled out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgical_sieve Did your rheumatologist feel like there were any clues as to what is causing your problems, or advice on what you should do next? I'll send you an email later.

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1198 · March 28, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Oh, and by the way, I went to a rheumy and after an hour of questions, examination, medical/family history, and going over blood tests, she says she honestly doubts SLE or something similar. No antibody tests ordered. She took me seriously and I trust her evaluation. I have to remember the only thing that tipped me in this direction was a barely positive ANA. The symptoms are minor enought to be anything, really.

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1198 · March 28, 2012 at 8:56 PM

Not_James, I almost feel uncomfortable posting so much about Kresser's methods on a public forum. Might be easier if you e-mail me: everet.swadson at the-email-provider-that-everyone-uses.com. I'm starting to get in over my head with this stuff.

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1198 · March 28, 2012 at 8:51 PM

dsohei, I was only low carb for a few months, mostly an over-dramatic response to acne. The mysterioous symptoms got worse then but certainly didn't originate with low carb. I've explored everything with thyroid, which both Kresser and I suspected from the get-go. It seems fine.

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1786 · March 27, 2012 at 9:26 AM

Because, what if its not autoimmunity, what if its low thyroid or something along those lines

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1786 · March 27, 2012 at 9:22 AM

Streak, have u been low Carb for a while?

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 5:11 AM

Yes, I've had mild lymphocytopenia for at least about two years. Not sure about before then because I never got a WBC diff. The lymph count got brought up because of recurrent minor illnesses a couple years ago, then more recently the flushing/hypertension/photosensitivity/myriad weird symptoms started or worsened. I'm actually not sure if I've had free T3 checked; the labwork I have with me just mentions TSH, T4, Free T4, and T3 uptake. I guess I need more tests?

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 4:51 AM

That's very typical. And ur there consistently, not because u had a cold, right. How's your Free T3? A high Rev T3 with 4-6 WBC is very typical for hypothyroid, 90% of which is Hashimoto's, i.e., autoimmune. But not all test + on TPO/TG. All that will show is that you COULD be hypothyroid and have an autoimmune condition. This is not an exact science.

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 4:16 AM

Thanks for the ideas. WBC is around 4.5, mild lymphocytopenia at 0.9-1.4. (This is normal on some reference ranges, particularly in the US; apparently British people have more lymphocytes.) Haven't had TP or TGO tested, I guess because T3/T4/TSH were totally normal, but will look into that per your suggestion. I'll ask the derm about a biopsy, but I have a feeling he's just going to get out his prescription pad.

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 3:58 AM

Also, you could do a biopsy of your facial rash by a dermy and that could confirm whether it's lupus. That is, if +, then lupus, if -, then you still don't know. You could be ANA- but if tissue + with symptoms, you could be dxed then.

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 3:45 AM

I think low WBC is typical for most people with autoimmune diseases. How low is it? The typical pattern is not out of the range but low-normal, like 4-6. Also, about 95% of SLE sufferers are ANA positive, so if you're not positive with only symptoms, you might not be diagnosed. But symptoms can always show up later. Light sensitivity also typical for most connective tissue AI sufferers. Did you get your TP and TGO tested -- they overlap with ANAs. If not tested yet, I'd show studies showing Hashimoto's overlap with SLE, Sjogren's, etc. That's probably the easiest way to confirm autoimmunity.

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 2:46 AM

Oh sorry that was anticardiolipin antibody, not anticentromere. Yeah this is confusing. : (

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 2:44 AM

Interestingly all the autoimmune bloodwork has been negative/normal so far, which is making me suspect some other source of a problem like cortisol from a pituitary tumor (which are surprisingly common).

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156 · March 27, 2012 at 2:42 AM

Hi Namby Pamby, my GP thinks I have some SLE-like condition, because of my depressed lymphocyte count, low platelets, and photosensitive malar rash/flushing, plus some other weird symptoms. ACA was probably for antiphospholipid/Hughes', which sometimes accompanies SLE. I got tested for SSB/La as well (was going by memory earlier, sorry). It is confusing for me too. I think my GP might be pushing the limits of his expertise, but wants to help and is willing to run tests. I was expecting to get told I was fine & referral to a psychiatrist. Prob. going to see a rheum and derm soon.

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5132 · March 27, 2012 at 12:08 AM

Ok, not james, I've been tested for all those antibodies except for ACA, which is centromere and is for scleroderma. U have CREST? The whole alphabet soup can be perplexing and it confused the heck out of my PCP, who's a gastroenterologist of all things. He hadn't a foggiest idea what I was being tested for and why I needed them. Why only SSA/Ro, not SSB/La? Sounds like some COBOL programmer creating spaghetti codes. Mork calling Orson, come in Orson.

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24523 · March 26, 2012 at 11:37 PM

You can try going to a rheumatologist / general practitioner who has research interests in the type of stuff you're looking for. Although I'm sure you've thought of this, since you live in the Bay Area, UCSF and Stanford can be goldmines. Cheaper going through insurance, once you find a good doc.

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156 · March 26, 2012 at 10:33 PM

StreakofLean, thanks... I was actually more interested in the case review labwork. I suppose I might pay to find out the next time I get stuck. I'm a little reluctant because it probably mostly overlaps with stuff I or my GP have already done.

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156 · March 26, 2012 at 10:31 PM

I was able to get screening for about 8 antibodies (ANA, anti-dsDNA, ACA, anti-ENA, anti-SSA/Ro, anti-neutrophil, RNP, La, anti-CCP) at the GP level without having to be pushy. Might have gotten something different from a rheumatologist, however many rheumatologists are very focused on joint pain and may think your issues aren't rheumatological if joint pain isn't one of your symptoms.

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5132 · March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Streak, the reason why I say a conventional rheumy might be better positioned is because there are literarry hundreds of different varieties of connective tissue diseases. And more than a dozen antibody tests. A nonspecialist simply doesn't know. The closest specialist to a rheumy would be a neuro or an endo, and they don't know either, since they don't deal with connective tissues. Based on your ANA+ and skin flush, you need a minimum of double strand DNA Ab for SLE.

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1198 · March 26, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Not_James, the bloodwork he did after the initial screening? The case review bloodwork is pretty extensive, I couldn't even summarize it. But the additional tests he ordered, as I remember, were an Immunosciences Autoimmune Panel, Metametrix Organic Basix Profile, and a full thryroid lab from Labcorp (antibodies, free T4, c-reactive preotein, free T3).

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1198 · March 26, 2012 at 6:40 PM

Geoff, yeah, the reason I went to Chris is because I didn't want to take this all on myself. I had tried with self-experimentation, and it was a maddening miserable dead end. That sounds like a good protocol, and may work, but what do you do when it doesn't and provides almost no answers for you? That's where I was. Your other path, as Namby says, is dealing with conventional doctors, wherein you won't even be acknowledged as anything but a crackpot, especially before you had any relevant testing, which they won't order for you, because you're a crackpot....

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1198 · March 26, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Namby: Thanks! I have my first rheumy appointment tomorrow. When I asked for a referral from my PCP, he told me my symptoms/test results were "not clinically significant." Squeezed it out of him anyways. for diet, what's strange is when I ate closest to autoimmune, very strictly, I felt the worst. Perhaps because I didn't know how to do it yet, and so also was limping along on this really limited low-carb thing. What I[m doing now is being patient and diagnostic, no supplements, eating a very doable diet, and seeing what happens, getting a kind of baseline.

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5132 · March 26, 2012 at 2:47 AM

Also, to Streak, I realize ur in a rush to solve this autoimmunity, but you've got to give it some time. Have your diet as close to the autoimmune diet as possible; to do that, you have to explore new food sources and that will take time. I would reserve LDN for when you fail to reduce your symptoms via diet; but from what I'm hearing, your symptoms aren't that serious ... except for a numb feet ... unexplained neuropathy that may completely immobilize your foot is a serious issue. I would still look for a competent rheumy that is used to testing antibodies for Sjogren's, CREST, RA and SLE.

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5132 · March 26, 2012 at 2:35 AM

Holy basil from a naturopath? Well, I think in many cases, we simply don't know still. At least the doc here odered a slew of relevant tests. You don't know how much time you'll be wasting beating around the bush with someone from alleopathic medicine. It took me 3 years to find an endo who would order thyroid antibody tests for me.

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2437 · March 25, 2012 at 11:19 PM

Im asking this genuinely. It seems like the above is what you'll get from a paleo doc and then maybe things like holy basil if youre stressed out??

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2437 · March 25, 2012 at 11:16 PM

So basically order a full thyroid, vit D, c-reactive protein test, etc yourself online and save a bunch of dough? That is actually what my gut instinct was telling me was the proper course of action. It seems like the bottom line is autoimmune Paleo as a base, get your vitamin D up, supplement with magnesium and get a full thyroid test to see what to do with iodine. Then ride that out for 30 days and either add foods back in or tweak from there. Also, get stress and sleep in as much control as possible. Doesnt seem like there is much more then this does there?

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 10:04 PM

Now that I know how NOT to answer (!), THANK you for your well-written short analysis. This really sums it up for me & to keep searching for a practitioner; actually, this and other "findings" particular to my search [for one who isn't my freakin' doctor]. Am I allowed to acknowledge the OP or is that against PH bylaws?

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156 · March 25, 2012 at 9:53 PM

Also have to agree with you about there being some value in ruling things out. In any discipline, sometimes when you can't figure what something is, you have to figure out what it isn't.

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156 · March 25, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Hey, thanks for posting this. I'm always interested in what you say, partly because we have some overlapping weird problems. If you have time, could you summarize what bloodwork he used for screening?

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3049 · March 25, 2012 at 9:40 PM

Thank you for taking the time to post a review of your experience.

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439 · March 29, 2012 at 7:13 AM

I contacted Chris Kresser when I started obsessing with diet after detecting that some joint problems I had improved when I cut gluten and processed foods. By the time of the case review, I had started on a (low-carb) autoimmune Paleo, and a lot of weird symptoms had started to show, like racing heart at night (resulting in insomnia) and during the day, puffy face, fatigue, chest pain, lack of mental focus, dizziness etc. I did not really have these problems pre-Paleo. The case review revealed some wacky patterns. Follow-up tests confirmed anti-bodies to the thyroid. Chris never questioned my diet. From what I told him, he thought it sounded just right. He recommended LDN, which I tried. He did not recommend other supplements, and asked me to wait with dessicated thyroid even though my T3 was very low (on or just below the lab range). I tried the "support your immune system" measures on his website. After 6 months of feeling like shit, including 6 months of amenorrhea (had never had menstrual problems before going low carb Paleo), I started looking elsewhere. What frustrated me the most, is that when I mentioned the big picture in consultations, namely that all my bad symptoms started after going Paleo, he did not take me seriously.

I think Chris is a decent guy. He is friendly during consultations. I think he did a pretty thorough job with the case review. The thing is, I do not buy into his "theory" of hypothyroidism at all, namely that "it is all about the immune system". I have a pretty low stress job and life. I think I had a pretty healthy "lifestyle" before I got messed up. In retrospect, I am sure low-carb Paleo crushed my T3, and consequently messed up my estrogen to progesterone balance and a lot of other stuff. I think my anti-bodies to the thyroid is related to estrogen excess, not that my immune system attacks my thyroid gland. I think Chris missed the hormone connection completely. After implementing some of Ray Peat's recommendations, I got my period back and feel way, way better.

One the positive side, I am happy with the process of getting tests done through Chris. I live outside the US, so getting the ASI and Metametrix GI panel from a local doctor, would be be way more expensive and complicated. Chris' office manager is an absolute darling. Very efficient and easy to work with.

For thyroid related symptoms and hormonal issues, I am skeptical to Chris' approach. However, maybe my case was unique. Maybe he has had good results with others. As for the other problems he specializes in, I have no idea whether his approach is really addressing the "real" underlying cause of the problem or not.

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520 · May 27, 2012 at 6:53 PM

I think I might actually be able to offer some useful info based on my experience. I haven't actually had my case review appointment with him yet. It's scheduled for late next month. I started the whole process way back at the beginning of this year, but took me a while to get my tests done (still have to go get blood drawn for a final one, but need to drive to another state for it because of Massachusetts laws).

I don't make much money these days, but I had a bit of a windfall and decided to take the plunge and do a case review with Kresser. I've had horrible acne for over a decade along with some depression and anxiety issues. Paleo has been the first thing that really helped, but I'm not 100% better yet. More importantly, I don't feel that I have a clear sense of the underlying issues that I'm dealing with. Like other answerers, I turned to Chris hoping for some clarity and encouraged by his focus on testing and his expressed skepticism towards easy answers (which I've had handed to me by conventional and alternative docs alike).

Like I said, I haven't actually had my case review appointment with Chris yet, but I made the decision to do this months ago. I think my experience so far is actually worth sharing.

Even my initial 15-minute skype call with Chris took place a few weeks after I signed up for it, so I had some time to think about what I wanted to express to him and what he might ask me. Now, between Chris' podcast, website, and interviews on those of others, it wasn't hard to come up with a short list of obvious things that I might start doing to address my situation. If I'm willing to pay so much money for the guy's advice, I may as well start by acting on the advice he's giving out for free, right? I can be a pretty academic guy, so I sorta felt like I was preparing for inspection by a professor. I didn't want to seem like an idiot for not doing the obvious things.

The call went by quickly. Chris kind of explained the context in which he was going to look at my situation (gut-brain axis kinda stuff, obviously), and he told me what tests he recommends to get started. Rather than doing the standard comprehensive case review tests, we started with the more specific tests (organic acids and intestinal biota) to save time and money.

And I continued in my efforts to do as much as I could pre-case-review. On top of an already strict autoimmune paleo diet, I really became uncompromisingly committed to avoiding tyramine and histamine. I emphasized gut-healing foods like bone broth and ghee. I started taking L-glutamine, marshmallow, slippery elm, probiotics and experimented with other supplements as well. I even tried small amounts of fermented foods despite their amine content but backed off from them again. I redoubled my stress-management efforts, bought dark curtains for my bedroom, read the GAPS book, the Perfect Health Diet, and others to try to learn as much as possible.

The point is, just by making the commitment to the case review, I ended up doing a hell of a lot of work on my own that I might not otherwise have done. This alone is really worth the cost for me.

And then, I got some of my test results. Orgnanic acids and gut biota. The latter came back pretty clean, which was surprising but also a huge load off my mind. Here I was thinking that I might have a gut full of candida or something, and it seems that I'm actually in pretty good shape in that department. The organic acids results were initially mystifying, but I've done a lot of research and note-taking and am slowly starting to comprehend them. Even though I'm not sure just what to do about them, I'm starting to feel like I've caught a glimpse of those underlying mechanisms that I mentioned earlier. The worst part about having a chronic illness for me is not the illness itself but the sense of not knowing what to do about it. I at least now have some clues to go on.

And my problems? Well, they're not gone yet. At the moment, my skin is looking better than ever. My mental issues are day to day, but on the whole I think they are improving. Everything could all go to shit tomorrow, I know, but I think I'm in a better place than I've ever been with respect to my health.

At the end of the day, few other people will care as much about your health as you do, and nobody else is in a better position to really understand your health issues as you are. If you go to someone like Kresser hoping that he will lift the burden of your own health from your shoulders, I think you'll be disappointed. That's the same hope that people drag into conventional doctors' offices every day. It's the same hope that prompts people to buy processed foods covered in health claims.

In a way, Chris can't satisfy me. If he comes to my case review with a super specific answer about what's causing my problems, I will feel cheated, because I know that he can't really know for sure what's going on with me. On the other hand, if he can only offer some vague pronouncements about glutathione and methylation, I might also feel cheated, because I didn't pay all of this money just to hear him reprise one of his podcasts episodes on the phone. Now, of course, I think he will have some valuable information to offer, especially in regards to eliminating possible causes of my condition from consideration. But I know that this probably won't be the end of my travails. I'll probably continue to have these problems for some time, and my work with Kresser will be a small part of the big picture that I'm trying to assemble. I won't fault Kresser for not being able to give me the final word on my issues.

The realization and the commitment to the idea that I am the person who is going to change my own life are really the best things I've gotten out of this whole process.

And one other thing I should consider here is that I've only been paleo for 6 months or so, and I slipped up a few times in the beginning. I've had my problems pretty much my whole life, so the progress I've been making may well just have been a matter of time. And making more progress might just be a matter of patience, not the result of some epiphany that I receive from Kresser or anybody else. One way to look at working with Kresser is just as a coaching experience to keep you committed to what you're doing and to affirm that getting better is a priority for you.

I was surprised to find that I had something to say about this, and writing this has been helpful for me. I'll shut up now! :)

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529 · September 29, 2013 at 12:10 PM

@Charlie 1

This is very well written, and thoughtful.

Thank you for posting it.

Any chance you'd be willing to follow up on what happened (2 1/2 years later)?

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50 · February 28, 2013 at 5:42 PM

People, please, save your money.

While I am an MD, I consider myself open-minded and I'll be the first to say that western medicine does not have all the answers. But that doesn't mean that Chris Kresser does.

Reading this guy's blog is sufficient to start--then explore the literature yourself. See what works and what doesn't. But going to see him for an evaluation, blood panel and supplements is just ridiculous and exploitative.

I'd much more highly recommend Mark Sisson's site, Mark's Daily Apple.

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30 · August 11, 2014 at 5:36 AM

I contacted him some time ago but I would save your money, you can probably get as much benefit or more benefit from seeing a naturopath or functional medicine based doctor/practitioner. I am a big fan of his podcasts, articles and website and he does seem to be having more help and guest posts. Since naturopaths are often covered by most health insurance plans (except medicaid and possibly medicare), you could save a lot by just going to one on your plan and some will even be paid for or covered by insurance upfront (instead of you paying first and then having your insurance reimburse you). I met him in person and hes every intelligent, witty and kind person I think (it was for his book signing).

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17103 · August 11, 2014 at 10:26 AM

Why are you sneaking in links to commercial sites in here? Would you like to be banned for spamming?

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20 · April 18, 2014 at 3:10 PM

Chris Kresser is dangerous. He has no idea what he is doing; he just found some "follow the steps" approach to "treating" people and is running with it. He's about money, and in a niche with very little legitimate research or regulations, he's raking it in. If you spend any time picking apart his articles, you quickly see how skewed his "research" statistics are, and how he has an agenda that he is following. He will use any blurb, completely out of context, as long as it backs up his point. One of my favorites is a Cochran Review that he quoted in his home birth article, "There is no strong evidence to favour either home or hospital birth for selected low-risk pregnant women." Well if you go to the results of the study, they explain that the study (of 11 women) was "too small to be able to draw conclusions;" so, of course there is "no strong evidence," and there is no weak evidence, and there is no evidence of anything at all from that study. That didn't stop him from using the blurb to falsely support his agenda. This is the person he is, and this will be the treatment you receive. Beware of people like this; if you really think you have a medical problem please go to an actual doctor first. They're not all good, they're not all bad, but right now it's your best shot at figuring out what's wrong... Might take seeing a couple of different MDs, but just don't buy anything that this guy tells you as actual evidence based medicine. He talks loud and has lots to say, but when you dig through it, you'll find that he's uneducated, unable to glean the important outcomes of research studies and just doesn't care about the truth, unless it's in his corner and in his bank account. In conclusion: scary person, MDs still best option, please don't waste your money; taking a trip to a beach somewhere will be more likely to cure you than him.

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10176 · April 19, 2014 at 9:15 AM

The best medical advice I got was from my doctor, who could look at my tests, and me, and ask me what I'd done to screw up my diet. It didn't take more than a minute to sort it out. It required a personal visit to someone familiar with me for 10 years though.

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20 · September 27, 2012 at 5:35 AM

I have an nuanced answer as well. Chris has helped me incredibly. He's given me a better understanding of what's goine on in my body, but that said, I haven't gotten any better while seeing him and still feel horrible. I know that knowledge is power, so I'm grateful that I know what I know now and am hoping that I'll get better someday. But Chris has a terrible bedside manner. His tone is robotic, and the caring vibe he gives off in the podcasts is very different from how he behaves during a phone call with a patient. I do believe that as an individual you are in charge of your own health, but I'd like to feel like I have someone along for ride who has my back. It doesn't feel like that with Chris. Moreover, his assistant, Diane, is incredibly unfriendly and his office policies are absurdly rigid and I have had a few situations where I have been charged when I should not have been. Not trying to be bitchy, Just tellin' it like it is.

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8065 · April 19, 2014 at 4:27 AM

I've noticed the robotic tone in his podcasts and his somewhat dogged focus on minute detail. All I can think of when I hear him is "Aspergers". My nephew has AS, very bright (a PhD candidate) but lacking in "people" skills. I wouldn't be surprised if that shoe fits for Kresser.

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15 · September 14, 2014 at 1:11 AM

Also had a bad experience, but to be fair my bad experience was with his front office staff.   They constantly lost my name from lists, made absurd claims about him having a "multi-year" backlog, and when my name finally came up on a list they sent one email only.   When I didn't reply to that one email they then removed my name from the list and said it would be multiple years to see him again.

Any service provider who claims they have a multi-year backlog is running their practice in a very wrong way.   If you are so popular increase your price until supply and demand come into a reasonable balance.  

They need to lose the attitude.   If you are going to make people wait years for your services, pick up the damn phone and make a reasonable attempt - which means multiple phone calls and phone tag over the course of a month - to reach that person.   Sending one email and then cancelling the person off the list not only gets a "F" grade for customer service, but ought to qualify for a 60 Minutes expose on sadistic customer service.

It is inhuman to make a person wait years for your service and then to arbitrarily cut them off at the knees because they didn't answer an email.   I lost years off my life and a diagnosis waiting for this person, and in the end had to go elsewhere.

The final complaint is that Chris himself ignores all emails and phone calls from potential customers.   He simply forwards these to the same demonic customer service staff who create problems in the first place.    Therefore he has the perfect storm here of bad employees designing his customer service process, combined with his complete blindness to any feedback about those defective processes.

If there were a grade "G" after "F" I would probably give the "G".   "F" means you utterly failed to help me.   "G" means you actively tried to hurt me.

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10 · February 11, 2014 at 11:14 PM

I saw CK and none of my issues have been resolved after spending thousands on tests, herbs and supplements and working with Chris for a year.

Even I felt that the test results from some labs are not correct. Could be a eco system of helping each other make money!

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10 · September 28, 2013 at 2:05 PM

Please don't discount real physicians just because our healthcare system is broken and pcps often have no time to spend with patients. Obtain second opinions, and request referral to endocrinologists, obesity specialists, etc and you will find that many of us practice evidence-based medicine while still having N open mind for outside the box thinking and all of us put emphasis on lifestyle. -Dr. Karl Nadolsky

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4873 · September 29, 2013 at 5:59 PM

Our healthcare system is BEYOND broken as a result of reductionist thinking and the compartmentalization of health care. One of the HUGE benefits of seeing a L.Ac is that they are extensively trained in nutrition and do not rely on segmenting health into components. L.Acs are trained to examine systems, which is a very different perspective from MDs.

For you to discount a medical practice that requires 4 years of graduate level study, including both Western and Eastern diagnoses (yes, FOUR YEARS, just like MDs), is blatantly ignorant

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10 · July 26, 2013 at 7:15 PM

I have only experienced CK's website. I am a natural Dr. in NC. I have found NUTRI-SPEC.NET to be good site that is as good if not better than CK's...consult there for a Dr. near you. The diet from both is similar, but the nutrition from NUTRI-SPRC is more concentraated and specific...another good source/option id a Dr. Tim O'shea, who is somewhere in Ca. Dr Ezra

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0 · September 24, 2014 at 5:40 PM

he's not a primary care doc and it seems maybe some of you expect that sort of care. he's a consultant...he's been a total lifesaver for me, but I've never expected him to fix me...I knew this was my job and that he might just help me find my way as a partner in my journey...which he's done in spades...without any coercion...he's always trusted what my body has wanted and needed so if his suggestions didn't make sense to me it was never an issue...unlike most other docs I've seen. 

He's been my dream doctor BECAUSE he's not over-involved. He makes his consulting status explicit...so I've never expected more. 

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8014 · May 27, 2012 at 7:25 PM

Holy cow...

Just wanted to thank Charlie, edle, Melanie, and StrekofLean for writing such detailed accounts of your experiences with CK. I'm three months away from a master's in nutrition and will be starting up a consulting business. It's so helpful to read about your experiences so I can learn what does and does not resonate with clients. (I've been to an ND myself, for my own hormonal issues, so I've been on "the other side of the desk," as it were, but it's still very educational for me to hear about other people's experiences.)

Seems like it might be a different ballgame when it comes to me helping people who eat 100% SAD and have absolutely no clue about the connections between food, sleep, and stress on their health and mental/emotional well being, vs. people like us, who've been listening to Robb Wolf, Chris Kresser, Sean Croxton, etc., and feel like we could probably tell our conventional doctors a thing or two.

And Charlie, you're SO right -- no one will ever care about your health more than you. If taking thousands of dollars worth of supplements just doesn't sit right with someone, they shouldn't keep doing it just because someone like CK says so. (Lots of things for me to keep in mind when I start my practice. I'll likely use supplements in many cases, but I certainly understand the budget issues! And I'm all about using them to restore/replete and then dosing DOWN. Kind of like conventional medication, even "natural supplements" aren't things we should need to take for the rest of our lives. (Not if we get our diet and lifestyle in line, that is.) Also great info for me not to treat symptoms, but treat PEOPLE. Just because someone presents with x and y issues doesn't mean they'll respond exactly the same way to whatever protocol I gave the last person who came to me with x and y. In that way, sometimes natural medicine is as narrow-minded as allopathic.

Seriously, you have no idea how helpful this is. Thanks, all!

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1626 · March 26, 2012 at 7:58 PM

There is a peer pressure badge?

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24523 · March 26, 2012 at 9:13 PM

Okay, someone has started the ball rolling. You only need two more downvotes. Go ahead, if you ever wanted to say something dumb, now is the chance.

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24523 · March 26, 2012 at 8:15 PM

Yes, and only 15 people have earned it. If you want to type something dumb, I can downvote you, and you can be on your way! http://paleohacks.com/badges/36/peer-pressure#axzz1qFLbk1mK

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1118 · April 03, 2012 at 6:58 PM

somewhat related...has anyone done something like this? http://www.wellnessfx.com/crossfitbox/potrerohill

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 4:43 AM

Yes, he isn't perfect

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56606 · September 07, 2013 at 1:28 AM

not banned, just downvoted :)

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56606 · March 26, 2012 at 5:09 AM

to get banned you have to actually saw something offensive like "all the mods are goats and vegans rulez, here is a link to buy some Viagra!"

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66 · March 26, 2012 at 2:53 AM

Never been much of a sissy, so I'll leave it as a "badge" of ignorance ;-)

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15003 · March 25, 2012 at 10:18 PM

You could make lemonade out of lemons if you want. You can delete your response and actually get the "peer pressure" badge ;).

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 9:52 PM

yes it was obviously very complicated.

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5043 · March 25, 2012 at 6:48 AM

That's the difference between comments and answers. If you have an answer, answer. IF you have a comment, comment. Not too complicated.

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 6:04 AM

I'm laughing -- I think I have to read the FAQ cuz I do not quite understand the gestalt here @PH. Like, I don't think I intended to "answer" the OP. Am I banned for life!?

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66 · March 25, 2012 at 4:59 AM

Fresh out of elaboration except I have attempted to get through the process to "see" Chris; it's a process that can leave one with a lot of doubt.

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7275 · March 25, 2012 at 4:47 AM

This answer is not very helpful without some elaboration.

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