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What do you think about juice fasting?

by (2520)
Updated September 16, 2014 at 7:15 PM
Created October 22, 2010 at 12:37 PM

I just read an interesting interview on the Nutrition & Physical Regeneration blog, where Dr Richard Schultze discusses his experience with therapeutic juice fasting and its ability to allow the body to heal. He cites some pretty amazing successes.

Now, I have my own opinions about where the benefits are coming from (I also practice fasting regularly, without juice, and find that even a 24 hour fast soothes my digestion; I know the importance of enzymes; etc), but I'd love to know what other paleos think, given that the idea of using herbs and fruit is quite a traditional practice, although consumption of just the juice without the pulp isn't something I've heard of very often in this context. I'm also learning a lot about medicinal uses of herbs at the moment, and some of that information aligns itself with what Dr. Schultze reports.

One of the other ponderings currently running through my brain is whether juices would be an effective replacement for glucose IVs etc during hospital visits (assuming the visit isn't going to impact the efficacy of the digestive system). The idea of a glucose IV now makes me a little nauseated, especially given that when I recently had some 75% dark chocolate, I felt really ill afterward, whereas 85% doesn't bother me. I suspect some juices might be quite high in sugar and have a similar impact, but perhaps not as extreme as a glucose drip, but I really don't know the impact of IV drips on blood glucose and insulin. What do you think?

Even if we know raw vegetarianism isn't the ideal way of living healthfully, do you think medicinal juice fasts could be helpful to paleos in certain circumstances?

EDIT: People, I'm not intending to juice fast. This is a theoretical, hypothetical question. I'm interested in the practices of using foods & traditional medicines as treatment for diseases, etc. I'm more than happy with my own eating habits, and I'm really healthy. I just want to learn things outside of what I already know. We already accept that vegetarianism is very helpful for certain types of people, and for others (like diabetics), zero-carb protocols are very healing. Why not consider juice fasting as well?

UPDATE: An 'interesting' take on the juice fasting concept by the mainstream media: A Strange & Green Journey

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3979 · December 18, 2012 at 5:58 AM

Juice is food? Not to me. Semantics.

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0 · May 02, 2012 at 3:36 AM

I am trying a combination veggie juice/bone broth fast and this suggestion to add some coconut oil is a great idea. Thank you

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11571 · August 01, 2011 at 11:25 AM

GGP, IMO a green smoothie is in a completely different class than juicing, since it retains all the fiber and other constituents of whole food that would be stripped out by juicing.

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200 · December 06, 2010 at 5:43 PM

My digestion has finally settled down! I told them I would take no medications, and after researching ways to get nutrients, this seemed to be the most effective. Typically I'll do carrot, beet, cucumber, and apple in the morning and kale, spinach and lemon in the evening. My mom did a lot of natural therapies to cure her cancer. Building up your body is critical when fighting cancer. There are many docs actually "curing" cancer. Burzynski & Gonzalez are a couple of them.

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3651 · October 29, 2010 at 12:59 PM

i might go on a fish oil fast.

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22913 · October 29, 2010 at 11:49 AM

mental note: if visiting NY, no drinks that Melissa makes.

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56596 · October 24, 2010 at 5:26 PM

Depends on the juice. My fav trad. method to make drinks is the one that Amazonian hortaculturalists use...the women chew the ingredients and spit them into a bucket!

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1219 · October 24, 2010 at 1:45 PM

I haven't found that to be true in my experience. Most of the folks I have dealt with assumed primarily vegetable and some fruit.

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22913 · October 24, 2010 at 2:20 AM

Not much "juice" either. Technically vegetables can be juice, but unless you painfully clarify, most will assume fruit juice, not homemade V8

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 5:05 PM

People have been making juices for as long as they have been making wine and other fermented drinks. You don't need high tech to make juices. High tech just allows you to juice some fruits/veggies which couldn't be juiced previously, and juice more effectively other fruit/veggies which could always be juiced.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM

For the record I have fasted for 42 days and 21 days on juices. IIRC I think 12-14 days on water. 8 days on coconut water. And IF regularly.

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56596 · October 23, 2010 at 4:14 PM

How is it traditional medicine? How long have people had the tech to make juices from vegetables?

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56596 · October 23, 2010 at 4:12 PM

I think a juice fast probably has similar benefits to some other fasting regimes, particularly since the simple sugars get taken up in the small intestine and are generally not fermented. When in a bind I chose a juice rather than a "nutrition" bar if I don't want to do much damage. For example when I traveled with my father recently I would pick up Naked Juice and my father would pick up a fiberous honey-sweetened bar. Let's just say my stomach was in better condition at the end of the trip, though I was very eager to eat some meat!

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56596 · October 23, 2010 at 4:10 PM

There are tons of great articles online about tea compounds. I can't go into all of them because there are hundreds of types of tea! But if there is a juice for a condition, there is probably also a tea and the tea won't have any sugar and many do have ample scientific evidence for them. Some teas I drink include: mate, matcha, honeybush, licorice, cinnamon, cardamon, fennel, Ramon nut, chicory, pine needle, and ginger

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56596 · October 23, 2010 at 4:08 PM

One thing I noticed in the hospital was, unlike my normal fasts, I was very very hungry and somewhat enraged...

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:25 PM

I don't understand your point about IV drips either, since I was agreeing with you, not suggesting you believed otherwise. If you are going to wait on the reputation of coconut water as an IV drip, you will be waiting a long time. :-) Unless you are dealing with a bootleg nurse, you won't get it in the US either. I suggested cocowater as your own private IV alternative, rather than juice as an IV drip.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:19 PM

There is also a form of juice fasting involved in the original Gerson Therapy, and all that is very well documented, even to the point of hearings before the Congress of the United States.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:18 PM

The rejection of the cancer was inspired by the fasting. Juicing may have speed it up. It is a normal occurence in the fasting literature, such as it is. Why don't u write Dr. Schulze and ask for a list of people you can contact that were healed of cancer on his protocol, so you can "see" proof. Perhaps the interview has led you to believe there is only one single interaction here. Fasting in general tends to send the body into extreme healing mode, causing it to mobilize all its various resources. At any rate, Schulze himself uses many things all at once when it comes to "incurable" diseases.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:11 PM

No, juice fasting works because it is functionally a fast. You may or may not have regular bowel movements depending on what you are juicing. Schulze of course encourages regular bowel movements, but the hygienic school of fasting says your body will move its bowels when ready. Personally on a long term fast I don't think it matters. You fast long enough your bowels will move, regardless of what you are drinking. On a short term fast regular bowel movements will be more important.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:01 PM

That said, because you are ingesting (liquid) foods, you slow the detox reaction on the one hand, but because of the easily assimilated nutrition, you can speed the healing on the other hand, depending on what it is you are trying to treat.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:00 PM

[GGP]but nothing I've seen that really explains why juice fasting somehow might belong in the realm of magical medicines..[Michael] There is nothing magical about it. I've seen people do well fasting on store bought junk juices. Fasting is a powerful therapy regardless of the liquid. I have a post coming up where I rank in order of physiological aggressiveness the various types of fasts with water being on one end and full blown juicing being on the other end.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:54 PM

That said, there isn't really all that much on IF, & it is difficult to dig up stuff on long term water fasting, but that same body of material that deals with water fasting often deals with juice fasting. Dr. Otto Buchinger is the old school clinical king of juice fasting, and his material, though difficult to come by, can be had with some effort. But essentially therapeutic juice fasting allows you to emulate therapeutic water fasting without the difficult psychological/physiological effects often associated with water fasting. Why? Because food (including liquids) slows down detox responses

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:41 PM

[GGP]I would hope that it was clear from my question that I'm interested in the short-term practice of juice fasting in certain contexts, not something to add to your everyday routine. [Michael] I knew what you meant but clearly some of the people who responded missed that point. So I was further clarifying the issue. That is why I said I wasn't picking on you but rather using your writing as a jumping off point for further clarification. I think I was very clear about that. I also knew you understood my point of view. That too was clear, but clearly some of the responders did not.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:39 PM

[GGP]I would hope that it was clear from my question that I'm interested in the short-term practice of juice fasting in certain contexts, not something to add to your everyday routine. [Michael] I knew what you meant but clearly some of the people who responded missed that point. So I was further clarifying the issue. That is why I said I wasn't picking on you but rather using your writing as a jumping off point for further clarification. I think I was very clear about that.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:35 PM

[GGP]Thanks for chiming in Michael, but you didn't really add anything new... 1. Surely you know that paleos fast intermittently - this is what I refer to. I mentioned my 24hr fast as a hint towards my opinions on fasting, not a suggestion that it was the same as a therapeutic juice fast. [Michael] Then I don't understand your point. I knew you were referring to intermittent fasting. You made that clear. You then say "Now, I have my own opinions about where the benefits are coming..." which my response supports and confirms, i.e. the ultimate benefit is from the fasting, not the liquid used.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:36 PM

Thanks! So juice fasting works primarily because it causes regular bowel movements? Or is there more to that? (FYI, I used the word 'believe' not because I believe juice fasting can't be good, but because I believe extreme results are rarely caused by one single interaction. I know people whose bodies have literally ejected skin cancers from their bodies without any particular treatment at all - the colon cancer example could fall into this category, for all we know. Or maybe it truly was encouraged by the juice. There's currently no way to be sure. When I see proof, I'll 'believe' it.)

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:31 PM

So, that said, do you have any information you can add to this discussion? Any theories or resources that explore why juice fasting can be helpful? There's lots out there explaining why IF-ing, longer water fasts, and cutting out animal products can be healthful, but nothing I've seen that really explains why juice fasting somehow might belong in the realm of magical medicines...

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:29 PM

3. I'm not equating raw vegetarianism with juice fasting, but pointing out that I'm not endorsing a juice-based lifestyle, such as raw veg, since we paleos know enough about the long-term effects of such lifestyles. So I was trying to cut off those kinds of responses before they arose. I would hope that it was clear from my question that I'm interested in the short-term practice of juice fasting in certain contexts, not something to add to your everyday routine.I understood your point of view for the article (which I linked to) - if you promoted raw veg, I wouldn't be following you! :)

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:26 PM

Thanks for chiming in Michael, but you didn't really add anything new... 1. Surely you know that paleos fast intermittently - this is what I refer to. I mentioned my 24hr fast as a hint towards my opinions on fasting, not a suggestion that it was the same as a therapeutic juice fast. 2. If I didn't know to avoid IV drips, I wouldn't be asking the question. But at the moment there's no alternative - coconut water has only arrived recently in Australia and isn't terribly reputable as yet.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:19 PM

You're pretty much repeating my original question. I want to know if people have tried this, or know anything about how the body uses juice if the digestive system is compromised. Drinking a 'juiced' steak would be akin to drinking blood, surely, and that's going to be arguably healthy depending on the source. But as far as I've read, soluble fibre and carbs are easy for the system to uptake - but I want to know what the mechanism of this is, and if it involves the working of the digestive system in a way which would not suit a hospitalised situation.

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803 · October 23, 2010 at 10:20 AM

For an approach that supports intermittent fasting, a question about juice fasting can hardly be called "absolute bullshit." It can be called misguided, but as people have pointed out, any period of giving the system a rest has its benefits. Not everyone can hack constant heavy meals, and some people are still working at it. I wouldn't be apt to cleanse with juice since I've gone paleo but an IF or an F certainly has its place.

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20787 · October 23, 2010 at 3:54 AM

This is a good point. If you are malnourished and having problems digesting, then 'predigesting' foods via juicing and getting rid of the hard to digest parts like fiber and pulp, might in fact be really good for you. And the nutrients would probably absorb better than if from vitamins pills. Later, once the gut is healthy, you would no longer need to 'predigest.'

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20787 · October 23, 2010 at 3:50 AM

Anyway my point is, how do we know the juiced form of some veggies is easiest to digest? IF I juice a steak, is that also now easiest to digest?

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20787 · October 23, 2010 at 3:49 AM

Hmm. Interesting concept. I've actually thought about that some. What if I was in the hospital and they wanted to do a glucose drip. It would be nice to avoid having them pump sugar into my blood and thus weaken my immune system when I need it most. But if this is the case, I think the real question is what healthy food is easiest to digest? Maybe the answer is bland food like banana and unsweetened apple sauce. SUgar is actually easy to digest and probably fine in smaller doses as long as you are not badly spiking your blood glucose with it.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:31 AM

This is very interesting! What kind of response have you had, digestion-wise? My sister-in-law is a recently diagnosed Celiac sufferer, and is being pumped full of drugs to help her absorb nutrients (argh). I hadn't thought of how that would boost her nutrition without putting her through the pain of digesting all that fibre. How do you know juice fasting helped your mother's cancer?

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:28 AM

That's pretty much what I'm thinking too, which is why I think my system runs so much better now that I've given it time to heal fully from old practices. And ditto the fruit juice damage point - I was only really paying attention to the idea of vegetable juicing and wheatgrass, given how other carnivores eat herbs etc medicinally. Maybe Schultze is seeing the benefits that have been long understood by traditional peoples like the Masai given their use of herbs.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:26 AM

I know, but I'm looking mainly at people in hospital who cannot digest food, and want to avoid an IV.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:23 AM

Not much fructose in a green smoothie.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:23 AM

... Where in my question did I imply I wanted to juice fast? This is a theoretical question - I want to know about whether juice fasting could help really sick people who can't otherwise digest etc a normal paleo diet. You're preaching paleo to the choir.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:16 AM

I'm not thinking of juice fasting at all. How boring. I eat mainly meat. I'm just interested in knowing prety much everything about everything when it comes to nutrition, health and medicinal treatments.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:15 AM

The same experts that encourage diabetics to eat lots of whole grains? Eventual coma - no way around it.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:14 AM

The interview would suggest that fasting means giving the digestive system a break, and that pulp-free juice is absorbed as readily as water into the bloodstream, minimising or neutralising the impact upon the digestive system. Not sure if it's a technically accurate concept, but that's what Schultze believes.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:13 AM

Semantics of 'stripping' = fibre scraping out the guts. Diarrhea isn't stripping in that sense, but a violent purge. Otherwise we'd be squeaky clean after every bout of gastro. Gotta get the mucous pumping with some fibre to really clean it all out.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:11 AM

This isn't about me, Melissa, it's about a concept that is working for some people. My digestion is fine - the benefit of fasting for me is not what it 'does' but what it 'doesn't do': I don't notice any detrimental effects in energy or digestion, I have a lot more time in the day to get things done, etc. Anyway, your points about your hospital visit is a helpful response to the actual question. As for the healing properties of tea vs juice, do you have any references to support those ideas?

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:07 AM

I don't believe many of the 'miracle cure' aspects of the interview, sure, but that doesn't mean the wider applications should be ignored outright. Most of the world would never believe that zero-carbing could cure diabetes and not end in heart disease, but there you go... I hoped paleo people would be open-minded enough to at least consider traditional medicines, etc.

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970 · October 22, 2010 at 11:36 PM

Interesting that you've had bad diarrhea from juicing, I've had the opposite experience. My gut was pretty awful for a long time, but fresh homemade juices never bothered it. I did have to remove all pulp by running it through a nut milk bag. A lot of people following GAPS diet with digestive diseases do juicing too. Not saying it can't aggravate digestive issues, but from the results I see in that community, it hasn't been a problem.

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22913 · October 22, 2010 at 10:18 PM

It would break it down, speeding up the digestion process. Not sure if that's optimal in a suboptimal acidic stomach.

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10497 · October 22, 2010 at 10:11 PM

"Man cures his colon cancer by juice-fasting. The cancer came out in the toilet." Are you effin' kidding me???!!! Holy God. It is even worse than I thought. In the future, let's not post questions about absolute bullshit on PaleoHacks. Thanks.

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10497 · October 22, 2010 at 10:07 PM

Not gonna win me any friend amongst the juicing crowd: but this is garbage. Schultze's language reeks of snake-oil. I mean snake-juiece. Sorry.

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10497 · October 22, 2010 at 10:06 PM

Not gonna win me any friend amongst the juicing crowd: but this garbage. Sorry.

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1688 · October 22, 2010 at 8:38 PM

if you're diabetic, paleo or not, and cannot digest food, you MUST have an expert in nutrition and insulin management following a strict protocol. pre-, ante-, and post- procedure. now way around it.

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4089 · October 22, 2010 at 7:00 PM

I guess that the good old-fashioned Paleo logic would apply then; if we evolved eating whole fruits and veggies, odds are we're better off eating them whole as opposed to juiced, but that's probably getting a little over-the-top.

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803 · October 22, 2010 at 5:56 PM

I know you're joking but as someone who is trying to improve protein digestion (currently taking a huge dose of HCL with a mild effect) would a steak puree negatively alter the way it's digested, or would it make it easier to assimilate?

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19220 · October 22, 2010 at 2:33 PM

I have wondered the same thing.

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56596 · October 22, 2010 at 2:02 PM

You don't have to have the fiber to have a stripping effect. Any gut disturbance can do it. I think the irritation in juice fasting comes from bacterial colony disturbance. I've done juicing and had some pretty bad diarrhea from it.

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2520 · October 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM

Well, of course Type 2's are going to be special cases because your system is broken. But what about for undamaged people? I did a quick calculation of the carb content of a typical green smoothie minus the dairy, and it's really not any more than I consume as my veg component of my meals. This is in contrast to the figures I see associated with a typical glucose IV... Out of interest, as a diabetic paleo, what would you do if you were hospitalised and couldn't digest food?

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2520 · October 22, 2010 at 1:49 PM

I imagine you'd need to be consuming the fibre as well as the juice to have a 'stripping' effect - the juices are arguably more of a detox and an immediate energy source, as well as a blood thinning to encourage circulation... This is all going by the interview - I'd love to know if it's wrong. I'm not a paleo-mimic or anything like that either, but we have to concede that a lot of modern medicine has been beneficial as well, so we can't rule out everything according to those rules.

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2520 · October 22, 2010 at 1:45 PM

It's not just fruit juice - you can do celery and herb juices too, according to the interview. Carrot and beet juice would pump up the sugar a bit, but not as high as fruit.

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803 · October 22, 2010 at 1:28 PM

you say you suspect that juices are high in sugar. is it even possible that fruit juice is *not* high in sugar? isn't it mostly straight fructose? maybe not as bad as HFCS but not as good as eating the whole fruit. still, having done the master cleanse, i can tell you that those mythical toxins are in fact released during the process - whether from the liver or the gut. Whether or not you re-absorb a lot of them in your colon before they can be evacuated is of concern however.

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15966 · October 22, 2010 at 1:23 PM

i guess my fundamental problem with it is twofold:

  1. the pure bolus of sugar dumped into the system
  2. the seriously unnatural, unprecedented nature of it.

Please please dont take this the wrong way, i am not a re-enactor or whatever, but certain foods/manners of eating that are very unnatural (in my opinion) just seem to me to be less-than-good for us. I know that certain unprecedented things (like taking isolated cod liver oil) can have very beneficial effects for us, too. This one just strikes me as dangerous.

I do concede that it would prolly clean you out or whatever. If you really wanna strip your guts out yknow?

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:13 AM

Semantics of 'stripping' = fibre scraping out the guts. Diarrhea isn't stripping in that sense, but a violent purge. Otherwise we'd be squeaky clean after every bout of gastro. Gotta get the mucous pumping with some fibre to really clean it all out.

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970 · October 22, 2010 at 11:36 PM

Interesting that you've had bad diarrhea from juicing, I've had the opposite experience. My gut was pretty awful for a long time, but fresh homemade juices never bothered it. I did have to remove all pulp by running it through a nut milk bag. A lot of people following GAPS diet with digestive diseases do juicing too. Not saying it can't aggravate digestive issues, but from the results I see in that community, it hasn't been a problem.

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56596 · October 22, 2010 at 2:02 PM

You don't have to have the fiber to have a stripping effect. Any gut disturbance can do it. I think the irritation in juice fasting comes from bacterial colony disturbance. I've done juicing and had some pretty bad diarrhea from it.

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2520 · October 22, 2010 at 1:49 PM

I imagine you'd need to be consuming the fibre as well as the juice to have a 'stripping' effect - the juices are arguably more of a detox and an immediate energy source, as well as a blood thinning to encourage circulation... This is all going by the interview - I'd love to know if it's wrong. I'm not a paleo-mimic or anything like that either, but we have to concede that a lot of modern medicine has been beneficial as well, so we can't rule out everything according to those rules.

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200 · October 22, 2010 at 11:21 PM

After being diagnosed with Celiac disease, my body's absorption still was terrible, so I began juicing twice a day, but pretty much all vegetables. I will throw in a tart apple or a lemon. But there is no way I could eat all the food I'm juicing, however, I can get all the nutrition. I have never fasted on just juice, but it was something my mom did when she had breast cancer. She actually beat her cancer naturally, and juicing was a big part of that.

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200 · December 06, 2010 at 5:43 PM

My digestion has finally settled down! I told them I would take no medications, and after researching ways to get nutrients, this seemed to be the most effective. Typically I'll do carrot, beet, cucumber, and apple in the morning and kale, spinach and lemon in the evening. My mom did a lot of natural therapies to cure her cancer. Building up your body is critical when fighting cancer. There are many docs actually "curing" cancer. Burzynski & Gonzalez are a couple of them.

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20787 · October 23, 2010 at 3:54 AM

This is a good point. If you are malnourished and having problems digesting, then 'predigesting' foods via juicing and getting rid of the hard to digest parts like fiber and pulp, might in fact be really good for you. And the nutrients would probably absorb better than if from vitamins pills. Later, once the gut is healthy, you would no longer need to 'predigest.'

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:31 AM

This is very interesting! What kind of response have you had, digestion-wise? My sister-in-law is a recently diagnosed Celiac sufferer, and is being pumped full of drugs to help her absorb nutrients (argh). I hadn't thought of how that would boost her nutrition without putting her through the pain of digesting all that fibre. How do you know juice fasting helped your mother's cancer?

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56596 · October 22, 2010 at 2:09 PM

When I was in the hospital I refused an IV and had my friends bring me coconut water and other juices instead. Let's just say that even though coconut water is all natural and whatnot, I did not feel awesome.

If a fast soothes your digestion, maybe there is something in your diet or gut that's still not quite right.

I used to be a heavy juicer because I was a raw vegan. I enjoyed juices very much, but overall I don't think they contribute to a healthy sustainable gut bacterial colony. Frankly, they often gave me the runs. As far as healing properties, teas are a much much better choice. You can make them with healing herbs and not take the hit of the sugar from juice.

Weren't you doing VLC? I don't think that is great for the gut either. Even Far Northern peoples eat some very high-fiber foods like kelp or pine shoots.

I think you need a good balance of animals foods + vegetable foods to keep your bacterial colony happy + a probiotic to make up for the years you ate the Western diet. Cooling Inflammation has lots of good info about this.

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56596 · October 23, 2010 at 4:12 PM

I think a juice fast probably has similar benefits to some other fasting regimes, particularly since the simple sugars get taken up in the small intestine and are generally not fermented. When in a bind I chose a juice rather than a "nutrition" bar if I don't want to do much damage. For example when I traveled with my father recently I would pick up Naked Juice and my father would pick up a fiberous honey-sweetened bar. Let's just say my stomach was in better condition at the end of the trip, though I was very eager to eat some meat!

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56596 · October 23, 2010 at 4:10 PM

There are tons of great articles online about tea compounds. I can't go into all of them because there are hundreds of types of tea! But if there is a juice for a condition, there is probably also a tea and the tea won't have any sugar and many do have ample scientific evidence for them. Some teas I drink include: mate, matcha, honeybush, licorice, cinnamon, cardamon, fennel, Ramon nut, chicory, pine needle, and ginger

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56596 · October 23, 2010 at 4:08 PM

One thing I noticed in the hospital was, unlike my normal fasts, I was very very hungry and somewhat enraged...

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:11 AM

This isn't about me, Melissa, it's about a concept that is working for some people. My digestion is fine - the benefit of fasting for me is not what it 'does' but what it 'doesn't do': I don't notice any detrimental effects in energy or digestion, I have a lot more time in the day to get things done, etc. Anyway, your points about your hospital visit is a helpful response to the actual question. As for the healing properties of tea vs juice, do you have any references to support those ideas?

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 11:19 AM

still, having done the master cleanse, i can tell you that those mythical toxins are in fact released during the process - whether from the liver or the gut. Whether or not you re-absorb a lot of them in your colon before they can be evacuated is of concern however. ??? patrick3000

Schulze addresses this in the interview. The old school natural hygiene fasting folks thought the body would get rid of these toxins in due time, and for a longer fast, in my experience, that is correct. But Schulze is more aggressive on this point, and adds his herbal compounds and specific juices to the regimen to make sure you have a bowel movement at least once a day.

It's not just fruit juice - you can do celery and herb juices too, according to the interview. Carrot and beet juice would pump up the sugar a bit, but not as high as fruit. ??? Girl Gone Primal

Not only that, but during a therapeutic fast, the body maintains very tight control of blood sugar regulation. This is something you only discover through actually working with people on fasts, rather than imagining "oh my God, its a sugar dump." :-)

By the way Girl Gone Primal, I'm not picking on you - you have done a great job here. I'm just using some of what you wrote as a jumping off point for further explanation.

Not gonna win me any friend amongst the juicing crowd: but this is garbage. Schultze's language reeks of snake-oil. I mean snake-juiece. Sorry. ??? Patrik???

"Man cures his colon cancer by juice-fasting. The cancer came out in the toilet." Are you effin' kidding me???!!! Holy God. It is even worse than I thought. In the future, let's not post questions about absolute bullshit on PaleoHacks. Thanks. ??? Patrik???

I don't believe many of the 'miracle cure' aspects of the interview, sure, but that doesn't mean the wider applications should be ignored outright. Most of the world would never believe that zero-carbing could cure diabetes and not end in heart disease, but there you go... I hoped paleo people would be open-minded enough to at least consider traditional medicines, etc. ??? Girl Gone Primal

"Belief" is not required here. It doesn't take much leg work to find people who have benefited in exactly the way Schulze describes from juice fasting and other herbal therapies. The "bullshit" is the way modern medicine has deluded us into thinking they are somehow the answer (or there is no answer other than poisoning, cutting, or otherwise mutilating your body) for degenerative disease. Clearly they are not.

I guess that the good old-fashioned Paleo logic would apply then; if we evolved eating whole fruits and veggies, odds are we're better off eating them whole as opposed to juiced, but that's probably getting a little over-the-top. ??? Fearsclave

That logic might be your death sentence if faced with an incurable disease and a broken body that needs something more than a dietary change to reach equilibrium once again. :-) My point is this interview isn't really about a normal diet, though you can clearly see where his sympathies lie. Hopefully you have a better understanding of my use of the interview from the first answer.

i guess my fundamental problem with it is twofold: the pure bolus of sugar dumped into the system

Is this an reaction from having experience with juice fasting both personally and with others, or is this something you think might be a problem?

the seriously unnatural, unprecedented nature of it.

Fasting has a long history, including even juices.

Please please dont take this the wrong way, i am not a re-enactor or whatever, but certain foods/manners of eating that are very unnatural (in my opinion) just seem to me to be less-than-good for us. I know that certain unprecedented things (like taking isolated cod liver oil) can have very beneficial effects for us, too.

Cod liver oil also has a long history.

This one just strikes me as dangerous.

I do concede that it would prolly clean you out or whatever. If you really wanna strip your guts out yknow?

Does this come from your own personal experience of fasting and fasting others? Does this come from a perusal of the literature on the subject? Or is this just something you are feeling in your gut, that you don't want to strip? :-)

As far as healing properties, teas are a much much better choice. You can make them with healing herbs and not take the hit of the sugar from juice.

Far from me to disagree with one of my favorite bloggers but frankly herbal teas (as normally sourced and used) suck, they are what I call "herbal light". Not really powerful enough to do anything, other than convince people (wrongly) herbal therapy doesn't work.

At any rate the point of the article is juice fasting, and fasting for healing with teas can often be as aggressive and as unpleasant as fasting with water. Tinctures are better, with teas and juices. Also many people fast only with green juices to keep the sugar somewhat lower than juice. But this is all variable depending on a number of factors. For someone who is just juicing as an adjunct to their diet, it is certainly something to consider. For someone dealing with an "incurable" disease, there are other factors to take into account, since the body operates differently during a fast than it does while eating normally.

I don't understand the terminology. Fast means no food. Juice is food. A juice fast is anything but a fast.

The historical use of the term fasting means abstaining from some types of food. It can include a liquid diet all the way up to and including only consuming water, but it is not limited to that.

Alright, enough. :-)

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:19 PM

There is also a form of juice fasting involved in the original Gerson Therapy, and all that is very well documented, even to the point of hearings before the Congress of the United States.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:18 PM

The rejection of the cancer was inspired by the fasting. Juicing may have speed it up. It is a normal occurence in the fasting literature, such as it is. Why don't u write Dr. Schulze and ask for a list of people you can contact that were healed of cancer on his protocol, so you can "see" proof. Perhaps the interview has led you to believe there is only one single interaction here. Fasting in general tends to send the body into extreme healing mode, causing it to mobilize all its various resources. At any rate, Schulze himself uses many things all at once when it comes to "incurable" diseases.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:11 PM

No, juice fasting works because it is functionally a fast. You may or may not have regular bowel movements depending on what you are juicing. Schulze of course encourages regular bowel movements, but the hygienic school of fasting says your body will move its bowels when ready. Personally on a long term fast I don't think it matters. You fast long enough your bowels will move, regardless of what you are drinking. On a short term fast regular bowel movements will be more important.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:36 PM

Thanks! So juice fasting works primarily because it causes regular bowel movements? Or is there more to that? (FYI, I used the word 'believe' not because I believe juice fasting can't be good, but because I believe extreme results are rarely caused by one single interaction. I know people whose bodies have literally ejected skin cancers from their bodies without any particular treatment at all - the colon cancer example could fall into this category, for all we know. Or maybe it truly was encouraged by the juice. There's currently no way to be sure. When I see proof, I'll 'believe' it.)

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6082 · October 22, 2010 at 2:25 PM

I don't understand the terminology. Fast means no food. Juice is food. A juice fast is anything but a fast.

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3979 · December 18, 2012 at 5:58 AM

Juice is food? Not to me. Semantics.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:14 AM

The interview would suggest that fasting means giving the digestive system a break, and that pulp-free juice is absorbed as readily as water into the bloodstream, minimising or neutralising the impact upon the digestive system. Not sure if it's a technically accurate concept, but that's what Schultze believes.

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19220 · October 22, 2010 at 2:33 PM

I have wondered the same thing.

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350 · January 25, 2012 at 7:03 PM

Juice fasting would be way more effective if you mixed some coconut oil in the mix.

Coconut oil will not only add some ketones to the mix but also help you absorb the fat soluble vitamins from the juice (A, D, E, K).

Has anyone tried this?

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0 · May 02, 2012 at 3:36 AM

I am trying a combination veggie juice/bone broth fast and this suggestion to add some coconut oil is a great idea. Thank you

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78417 · August 01, 2011 at 8:01 AM

juicing are great* Its hard to get a good juicer.

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22913 · October 22, 2010 at 10:24 PM

I imagine the benefit lies in the rest that your digestive system gets.

This is one of the huge benefits of IF and results in alot of positive health benefits.

Fruit Juice is absolutely not worth the resulting liver/metabolic damage.

Short term vegetable juicing with care taken to reduce lectin load would be great for anyone coming off SAD

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:28 AM

That's pretty much what I'm thinking too, which is why I think my system runs so much better now that I've given it time to heal fully from old practices. And ditto the fruit juice damage point - I was only really paying attention to the idea of vegetable juicing and wheatgrass, given how other carnivores eat herbs etc medicinally. Maybe Schultze is seeing the benefits that have been long understood by traditional peoples like the Masai given their use of herbs.

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20787 · October 22, 2010 at 5:39 PM

Well if the 'juice' where made of lower sugar veggies, it would probably be a far sight better than the regular SAD diet or even many vegan diets littered with sugar, starch, and high fructose corn syrup. So I am not surprised that some or many people have felt much better on it. Basically, it would be a short stint of eating much less crappy foods. Even regular juice would probably be an improvement for many on SAD! And if it did not go on super long you probably would not yet experience any serious nutrient deficiencies. For those who have yoyoing blood glucose levels (most people these days), some sugar would probably prevent them from going into withdrawal symptoms.

However, that is not to say juice fasting would be even NEARLY as healthy as just eating healthy food all the time like we advocate. I think part of the popularity of juice fasting is people want a quick fix that they can do for a few days and then be 'fixed.' But unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way when it comes to eating. You can't juice fast and then go back to eating crap and think you have actually fixed anything really.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM

For the record I have fasted for 42 days and 21 days on juices. IIRC I think 12-14 days on water. 8 days on coconut water. And IF regularly.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:19 PM

You're pretty much repeating my original question. I want to know if people have tried this, or know anything about how the body uses juice if the digestive system is compromised. Drinking a 'juiced' steak would be akin to drinking blood, surely, and that's going to be arguably healthy depending on the source. But as far as I've read, soluble fibre and carbs are easy for the system to uptake - but I want to know what the mechanism of this is, and if it involves the working of the digestive system in a way which would not suit a hospitalised situation.

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20787 · October 23, 2010 at 3:50 AM

Anyway my point is, how do we know the juiced form of some veggies is easiest to digest? IF I juice a steak, is that also now easiest to digest?

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20787 · October 23, 2010 at 3:49 AM

Hmm. Interesting concept. I've actually thought about that some. What if I was in the hospital and they wanted to do a glucose drip. It would be nice to avoid having them pump sugar into my blood and thus weaken my immune system when I need it most. But if this is the case, I think the real question is what healthy food is easiest to digest? Maybe the answer is bland food like banana and unsweetened apple sauce. SUgar is actually easy to digest and probably fine in smaller doses as long as you are not badly spiking your blood glucose with it.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:26 AM

I know, but I'm looking mainly at people in hospital who cannot digest food, and want to avoid an IV.

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1510 · October 22, 2010 at 2:10 PM

I still read a lot of raw food community blogs too, where juice fasting is a big thing, and it looks to me like people who are successful at it (1) mostly juice vegetables and leafy greens, to keep the sugar content of the juice low, and (2) use some means to still prompt the body to eliminate released toxins or byproducts of the healing via the digestive tract and via skin (enemas, probiotics, skin brushing, exercise). Here is one example: http://www.courtneypool.com/ Point (1) prevents juice fasting from being a glucose IV. I think juice fasting works for a lot of the same reasons paleo works -- your body doesn't have to struggle with digesting grains, dairy, or legumes.

How long were thinking of juice fasting for? I think another question is how juice fasting compares to IF. Given the body's need of protein and fat, I would question how paleo it is to choose a 5-day juice fast over a 36-hour IF. But a 36-hour juice fast and a 36-hour IF would be very similar in benefits, I think, especially if you have trouble with regular IF. This all assumes, of course, that you're using fresh juice you've made yourself with low-sugar produce.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:16 AM

I'm not thinking of juice fasting at all. How boring. I eat mainly meat. I'm just interested in knowing prety much everything about everything when it comes to nutrition, health and medicinal treatments.

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4089 · October 22, 2010 at 12:43 PM

As a Type II diabetic, I'd be very nervous about dumping a whole lot of sugar into my system on an empty stomach.

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11571 · August 01, 2011 at 11:25 AM

GGP, IMO a green smoothie is in a completely different class than juicing, since it retains all the fiber and other constituents of whole food that would be stripped out by juicing.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:15 AM

The same experts that encourage diabetics to eat lots of whole grains? Eventual coma - no way around it.

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1688 · October 22, 2010 at 8:38 PM

if you're diabetic, paleo or not, and cannot digest food, you MUST have an expert in nutrition and insulin management following a strict protocol. pre-, ante-, and post- procedure. now way around it.

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4089 · October 22, 2010 at 7:00 PM

I guess that the good old-fashioned Paleo logic would apply then; if we evolved eating whole fruits and veggies, odds are we're better off eating them whole as opposed to juiced, but that's probably getting a little over-the-top.

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2520 · October 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM

Well, of course Type 2's are going to be special cases because your system is broken. But what about for undamaged people? I did a quick calculation of the carb content of a typical green smoothie minus the dairy, and it's really not any more than I consume as my veg component of my meals. This is in contrast to the figures I see associated with a typical glucose IV... Out of interest, as a diabetic paleo, what would you do if you were hospitalised and couldn't digest food?

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1005 · December 18, 2012 at 3:09 AM

I think that juice fasts can be very healthful if done right and that yuo get all teh macronutrients. I did a sort-of juist fast the week before last week because my wisdom tooth was bothering me and for fat and protein I added chia seeds, goat or sheep's milk yogurt, and soymilk (I know latter three not paleo) to my juices and smoothies and shakes and I felt great and I was not hungry and had no cravings

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0 · June 05, 2012 at 3:26 AM

I did VLCD 18 months ago, which translated roughly into the Paleo route. Hubby seriously started Paleo 6 months ago. Zero processed sugar, zero grains, zero starchy carbs. We've both lost significant weight...I don't do cheat days as a rule. A month ago, after considering another VLCD round to see if I could finally drop those last pesky pounds, I came across the Crazy Sexy diet. It's a pure vegan juice/smoothie plan with probiotics, teas and colonics.....I was intrigued by the juicing component, not being a huge fan of the fasting days. Then I watched "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" and I was sold, not only on the lean proteins, organic veggies and processed sugar as poison, but the idea of the juice came back again and again. We invested in a low speed, single auger juicer...TONS of pulp and I always add more back. Those juice fast days are cake and pie (metaphorically speaking). I follow several juice gurus advice and always maintain at least 30% dark, green leafy veggies...most days I keep it at 40-70%. We're now juicing for sure in the a.m. And frequently end up making juice for dinner, especially in summer heat. I've seen my teens' faces clear up, I swear their growing like we've doused them in fertilizer and we've all maintained level weight and blood sugars. I'm aiming for a five day juice FEAST to help jump start my father who was just diagnosed with stage two colon cancer. I supplement with sprouted seeds or apple with nut butter. I also love those smoothies with a half an avocado ( learned the hard way on that one...drinking guacamole isn't very fun!) overall, we'll stick with lean, organic proteins and the greens, seeds, and sometimes we go crazy and eat legumes! Our personal experience (without official blood tests or "scientific" quantitative statistics) is that the juice has improved our overall health. It's pretty much like any other recent trend...raw, organic and half the portion. If we turned the food pyramid upside down and screwed the agricultural community by acknowledging that humans weren't supposed to eat grains or milk, we'd all be thinner, healthier and shinier. Find what works for you and commit.

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0 · December 23, 2011 at 12:10 PM

While there is some good discussion here, there is also some narrow "dig in my heels" kneejerk reactive commentary, (such as Patrick- come on, dude..) and I can only hope that the whole dietary movement has grown up in the past year since this thread was created. Many people here seem to confuse "fruit juice" that Schultz would have recmmended with the processed crap sold in bottles in stores. These juice programs are short term healing diets meant to be digestive rests while providing lots of micronutrients in readily digestible form. I am sure ancient people would have eaten fruits and vegetables, perhaps even mashed them, but here we have people clicking away on their laptops while simultaneously knocking the invention of an electric juicer (and saying they "are hard to get"?!).

The juicing program (for those who really cannot wrap their little minds around the word "fast" in this context of NOT EATING FOODS) is an antidote to an ALREADY UNNATURAL progression of events which lead to terribly UNNATURAL states of health in many of those who undergo it- a therapeutic intervention, if you will.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 9:36 AM

Girl Gone Primal, thanks for raising a question about my article on juice fasting. For those of you who want to read the original interview you can go here.

Now, I have my own opinions about where the benefits are coming from (I also practice fasting regularly, without juice, and find that even a 24 hour fast soothes my digestion; I know the importance of enzymes; etc),

If you mean you can get all the benefits of fasting without ingesting a single ounce of juice but rather by water fasting you are absolutely correct, but water fasting for longer than a couple of days can be quite difficult psychologically, and is far more aggressive than juice fasting physiologically. And when dealing with incurable diseases, which is the context of the interview, not physiologically necessary.

One of the other ponderings currently running through my brain is whether juices would be an effective replacement for glucose IVs etc during hospital visits (assuming the visit isn't going to impact the efficacy of the digestive system). The idea of a glucose IV makes me a little nauseated, given that when I recently had some 75% dark chocolate, I felt really ill afterward, whereas 85% doesn't bother me. I suspect juices might be quite high in sugar and have a similar impact, but perhaps not as extreme as a glucose drip, but I really don't know the impact of IV drips on blood glucose and insulin. What do you think?

You should definitely be afraid of the typical IV drip in the hospital. I wrote about that in my article, Ten Tips On How To Survive A Trip To The Hospital. The solution however is not juice but coconut water, which is sterile and has been used as an IV drip historically.

Even if raw vegetarianism isn't the only/ideal way of living healthfully, do you think juice fasts could be helpful to paleos in certain circumstances?

I think you are equating two things that need to be kept separate. Raw vegetarianism and juice fasting can be kept logically distinct, and for the purposes of this interview should be. Not to mention that my blog doesn't in any way shape or form come close to promoting raw vegetarianism as a lifestyle, and I would argue quite forcefully that raw veganism, which Dr. Schulze promotes as the way to eat after you are well (as distinct from raw vegetarianism) is not a way of living healthfully long term under any circumstances. So clearly I posted this interview with something else in mind.

Dr. Schulze earned his chops healing "incurable" diseases. He has a long public and demonstrable track record of doing such a thing, much like the late Dr. Max Gerson, and unlike Aajonus Vonderplanitz, the founder of the Primal Diet, whom I recently wrote an article about: Before Mark Sisson: Aajonus Vonderplanitz And The Primal Diet®

I didn't post this interview as a way of extolling the benefits of adding juicing to your regular dietary regimen, like many raw vegans do. I posted this as a part of my "curing the incurables" series, which is part of the mission of my blog. My take on juicing (non-intermittent fasting) can be summed up at the end of my article on Vonderplanitz:

In my opinion, the Primal Diet® is like non-intermittent fasting and veganism, they can be healthful and effective therapeutically, but are not necessary (and even harmful) as an ongoing continual every day practice.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:25 PM

I don't understand your point about IV drips either, since I was agreeing with you, not suggesting you believed otherwise. If you are going to wait on the reputation of coconut water as an IV drip, you will be waiting a long time. :-) Unless you are dealing with a bootleg nurse, you won't get it in the US either. I suggested cocowater as your own private IV alternative, rather than juice as an IV drip.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:01 PM

That said, because you are ingesting (liquid) foods, you slow the detox reaction on the one hand, but because of the easily assimilated nutrition, you can speed the healing on the other hand, depending on what it is you are trying to treat.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 3:00 PM

[GGP]but nothing I've seen that really explains why juice fasting somehow might belong in the realm of magical medicines..[Michael] There is nothing magical about it. I've seen people do well fasting on store bought junk juices. Fasting is a powerful therapy regardless of the liquid. I have a post coming up where I rank in order of physiological aggressiveness the various types of fasts with water being on one end and full blown juicing being on the other end.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:54 PM

That said, there isn't really all that much on IF, & it is difficult to dig up stuff on long term water fasting, but that same body of material that deals with water fasting often deals with juice fasting. Dr. Otto Buchinger is the old school clinical king of juice fasting, and his material, though difficult to come by, can be had with some effort. But essentially therapeutic juice fasting allows you to emulate therapeutic water fasting without the difficult psychological/physiological effects often associated with water fasting. Why? Because food (including liquids) slows down detox responses

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:41 PM

[GGP]I would hope that it was clear from my question that I'm interested in the short-term practice of juice fasting in certain contexts, not something to add to your everyday routine. [Michael] I knew what you meant but clearly some of the people who responded missed that point. So I was further clarifying the issue. That is why I said I wasn't picking on you but rather using your writing as a jumping off point for further clarification. I think I was very clear about that. I also knew you understood my point of view. That too was clear, but clearly some of the responders did not.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:39 PM

[GGP]I would hope that it was clear from my question that I'm interested in the short-term practice of juice fasting in certain contexts, not something to add to your everyday routine. [Michael] I knew what you meant but clearly some of the people who responded missed that point. So I was further clarifying the issue. That is why I said I wasn't picking on you but rather using your writing as a jumping off point for further clarification. I think I was very clear about that.

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1219 · October 23, 2010 at 2:35 PM

[GGP]Thanks for chiming in Michael, but you didn't really add anything new... 1. Surely you know that paleos fast intermittently - this is what I refer to. I mentioned my 24hr fast as a hint towards my opinions on fasting, not a suggestion that it was the same as a therapeutic juice fast. [Michael] Then I don't understand your point. I knew you were referring to intermittent fasting. You made that clear. You then say "Now, I have my own opinions about where the benefits are coming..." which my response supports and confirms, i.e. the ultimate benefit is from the fasting, not the liquid used.

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:31 PM

So, that said, do you have any information you can add to this discussion? Any theories or resources that explore why juice fasting can be helpful? There's lots out there explaining why IF-ing, longer water fasts, and cutting out animal products can be healthful, but nothing I've seen that really explains why juice fasting somehow might belong in the realm of magical medicines...

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:29 PM

3. I'm not equating raw vegetarianism with juice fasting, but pointing out that I'm not endorsing a juice-based lifestyle, such as raw veg, since we paleos know enough about the long-term effects of such lifestyles. So I was trying to cut off those kinds of responses before they arose. I would hope that it was clear from my question that I'm interested in the short-term practice of juice fasting in certain contexts, not something to add to your everyday routine.I understood your point of view for the article (which I linked to) - if you promoted raw veg, I wouldn't be following you! :)

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 1:26 PM

Thanks for chiming in Michael, but you didn't really add anything new... 1. Surely you know that paleos fast intermittently - this is what I refer to. I mentioned my 24hr fast as a hint towards my opinions on fasting, not a suggestion that it was the same as a therapeutic juice fast. 2. If I didn't know to avoid IV drips, I wouldn't be asking the question. But at the moment there's no alternative - coconut water has only arrived recently in Australia and isn't terribly reputable as yet.

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22913 · October 22, 2010 at 4:18 PM

Only juice fast I'll be trying is a grassfed steak purée.

I can't imagine how That much fructose would damage us long term, who cares about short term with that in consideration.

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1219 · October 24, 2010 at 1:45 PM

I haven't found that to be true in my experience. Most of the folks I have dealt with assumed primarily vegetable and some fruit.

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22913 · October 24, 2010 at 2:20 AM

Not much "juice" either. Technically vegetables can be juice, but unless you painfully clarify, most will assume fruit juice, not homemade V8

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:23 AM

Not much fructose in a green smoothie.

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22913 · October 22, 2010 at 10:18 PM

It would break it down, speeding up the digestion process. Not sure if that's optimal in a suboptimal acidic stomach.

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803 · October 22, 2010 at 5:56 PM

I know you're joking but as someone who is trying to improve protein digestion (currently taking a huge dose of HCL with a mild effect) would a steak puree negatively alter the way it's digested, or would it make it easier to assimilate?

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0 · October 22, 2010 at 3:26 PM

I wonder how much of the benefits come from not ingesting any sort of dietary lectins. I'd imagine a veggie fast would be more beneficial to stop the rollercoaster ride that would be your blood glucose (and hopefully insulin, barring any serious insulin resistance). But on all veggies, you're going to have a hard time getting a decent amount of calories in.

I'd stick to going super strict with the quality of food your putting in your mouth. Grass-fed, wild caught, pastured, meat. Organic veggies. I'd even limit fruit and starchy veggies if you're going for some sort of cleanse.

Either way, hope it works out well for you, and let us know what you decide on!

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2520 · October 23, 2010 at 2:23 AM

... Where in my question did I imply I wanted to juice fast? This is a theoretical question - I want to know about whether juice fasting could help really sick people who can't otherwise digest etc a normal paleo diet. You're preaching paleo to the choir.

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