"Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please? - PaleoHacks.com

"Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T19:58:25Z

Hi all. I would describe myself as "paleo vegan". Having read a fair amount of both vegan and paleo literature, I think that there is solid evidence that a paleo diet which incorporates some meat is optimal for human health and digestion. However I will not compromise my vegan diet. I have been vegan for 7 years now (vegetarian for 11). My diet is free of meat, dairy, gluten and soy.

My reasons for being vegan are primarily psychological and partly ethical. I have OCD and a "purity" complex and I just can't eat meat without feeling disgusted that there is "rotting flesh" inside me. (I accept that this may be irrational, but I can't really help it). I have the same attitude towards dairy and eggs. As for ethical qualms, I have come to the conclusion that animals most likely do not have the capacy to value life in the same way as humans do, but that said they still suffer and feel physical pain. Hence, I am against factory farming but not against hunting nor "humane" farming. Anyway, this post isn't about the ethics of meat-eating.

My diet primarily consists of: - Fruits (in the morning / first half of the day) - Vegetables (both raw and cooked) - Potatoes (sweet and white) - Nuts (sparingly, in salads for a main course and never on the same day as potatoes).

I've omitted things which I use sparingly or occasionally, like olive oil, raw food bars, etc. Also wine (when I socialise). As a rule, I just try to stay gluten free and vegan, and have at least 50% of my calories coming from raw frutis and veg.

Is this a good diet? I am not aiming to lose some weight, just maintain good health. Helpful comments would be appreciated. I'd remind that I have been civil in this post so I will not appreciate condescending vegan-bashing at all. I will answer any further questions. Thanks!

Answer by Pecan for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T20:26:28Z

MathGirl, I personally find that eating nuts and potatoes together or on the same day results in digestion problems (pain, bloating and loss of energy). It's not a rule that I'd recommend universally or anything.

whoreball, I have and am thinking it through. It's a very deep-seeded thing with me, psychologically and physically, and I'm not ready to start eating meat any time soon.

Answer by Liz for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T20:27:09Z

I love pecans!

Personally, I think you should incorporate more fats, like coconut oil/butter, olive oil, avocados, etc.

I know you said no eggs or dairy, but if I were to go vegan again, I would definitely include eggs. Following a diet with no fat soluble vitamins or b12 is not conducive to good health at all. If you can keep your own chickens or get eggs from a local farm that cares for their chickens properly, it might help with your concerns.

I would also be sure to include fermented veggies every day, like homemade sauerkraut or pickles.

Answer by Matt for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T20:28:40Z

Soy-free gluten-free vegan is as good as you're going to do, until you can get over the animal product hangup you have. It takes a seriously tiny amount of animal product to complete a vegan diet. A half a dozen oysters monthly would stave off B12 deficiency easily, in a natural whole foods way.

See also Denise Minger's vegan recommendations: http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/

Answer by miked for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T20:45:48Z

To answer your last question: "is this a good diet?". No.

It is better than a gluten, soy overload of frankenfoods that most vegans eat, but it's no where near good enough to meet your goals of losing weight and maintaining good health. But it's probably as good as you're going to get without adding meat.

After reading a bunch of Nora Gegaudus' stuff I bet your OCD and orthorexia might go away or be signifantly diminished if you eat meat and get your brain some nutrients.

Answer by Stabby for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T20:50:58Z

I'll list the potential areas of concern as I see them point by point. They are:

Eating of unhealthy things, essential micronutrients, macronutrient composition and non-essential but important nutrients.

It doesn't sound like you eat anything that is unhealthy, so that's good.

If you haven't already you should use a website like Fitday or a program like Cron O Meter to make sure that you are getting enough of all of the essential micronutrients.

Many people are not good converters of beta carotene to vitamin A and so some vegans may benefit from supplementing with it http://www.nutri-facts.org/News.10+M5631ea278ba.0.html The article says that people just need more beta carotene, but that is dubious if people can't make enough vitamin a from b-carotene. You aren't consuming soy, meat or dairy so you might benefit from more vitamin K2 as well. There is of course vitamin B12 to consider and your diet might be too low in zinc. But I'll let you figure all of that out for yourself.

Your diet appears to be mostly carbohydrates and very little fat. Fat is important, and a diet without enough fat can be detrimental to mental health http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.ca/2012/07/eat-fat-be-happy.html http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.ca/2011/07/fat-and-happy.html You might say that your mental health is fine, I don't know, but many people's moods are better when they eat more fat. It is a bonus in that case.

Protein is also important, especially the sulfur-containing amino acids. A vegan diet tends to be low in these and it can compromise glutathione (important molecule for detoxification and other protective processes) status. I think that people should get at least 15% of their calories as protein for that reason. Pea and hemp protein appear to be viable sources for you. And be sure to get enough sulfur, either from foods (dried fruit often has it as a preservative) or supplements.

There are numerous non-essential but highly useful nutrients that are low in or absent from a vegan diet. You may benefit from creatine supplementation http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.ca/2012/09/turboboost-your-brain-eat-meat.html carnitine supplementation, although you might get by with just a high intake of its precursors http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753065 http://suppversity.blogspot.ca/2011/07/amino-acids-for-super-humans-part-iv_17.html and carnosine or beta alanine supplementation http://thatpaleoguy.com/2011/02/21/carnosine-colons-and-cancer/

Your diet could also probably use more taurine http://suppversity.blogspot.ca/2010/08/taurine-from-foods-can-i-be-taurine.html

I hope that helps take your diet and health to the next level. Cheers.

Answer by Mscott for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T20:54:53Z

I would be most concerned with nutrient deficiencies on your diet. I wrote about nutrients difficult or impossible to acquire without animal products here. Let me touch on a few things.

Vitamin B12 is the classic concern. I'd recommend supplementing it, specifically with methylcobalmin (not cyanocobalamin).

You diet strikes me as low protein. Adequate protein is important in your case not just for preventing loss of muscle and bone, but for synthesizing nutrients like choline, taurine, carnitine and creatine, which are difficult to acquire without animal products. Soaked legumes may be beneficial for this purpose if you tolerate them.

Sea vegetables and fermented foods will be beneficial additions in my opinion. I'd even recommend an algae based omega-3 supplement, since it's a vegan source of long chain O3.

I'm also a fan of cooked mushrooms (crimini, white, button, and portebello) for a bit of B-vitamins and some minerals that may be lacking on your diet.

Hope this helps.

Answer by Semi-Primal for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T20:55:52Z

There is no such thing as "paleo-vegan".

Answer by Spears for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T21:29:19Z

Well I'd do it differently. If I had to design a paleo vegan diet it would include:

a good quantity of coconut oil, coconut milk and fresh coconut "meat"

more nuts in general, 100g a day

other fats including avocados, olive oil and red palm oil

pea protein isolate (protein powder) it has an impressive amino acid profile that doesn't look that different from whey

white rice, it has no known toxins, reasonable amounts of protein, is calorie dense and globally keeps a billion people alive

extensive supplementation including vegetarian algal source omega-3's

I think your calories are way too low. Are you actually getting half your calories from fruit and non-starchy vegetables? If so how many grams of fructose are you consuming on a daily basis.

You acknowledge you have OCD, a branch of the anxiety disorders that encourages your veganism; it is feasible that poor nutrition is worsening your OCD and your health choices in a vicious circle. You apparently have no more ability here to make rational choices than does an anorexia sufferer. Ethical reasons for veganism are incredibly weak, even plants eat animals such as the Venus Flytrap and the many other carnivorous plants. Your reasons for being vegan are primarily psychological so you should aspire to develop a structured and rational return to optimal eating.

And you have weight to lose? I am surprised you don't look like David Life after seven years of this. If you are going to stay vegan for now why don't you visit http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ At least many of them look strong and healthy and they'd encourage you to eat more and build yourself up.

Answer by VB for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-09T21:35:32Z

My answer:

By not having any animal products you are denying yourself some very important nutrients, like vitamin B12, essential amino acids, etc. Sooner or later it may cause some serious damage to your health.

Here are some videos by former vegetarians:

This is NOT my answer, but this is what I was actually thinking while reading your question:

WHF is paleo-vegan? Is it like a christian atheist? Have some fish, for God's sake. Or grass-fed meat.

Rotting flesh? How can somebody even come up with an idea of NOT EATING MEAT??? OR FISH??? It is like feeding grass to lions or tigers. That's where rotting flesh comes it.

Answer by smartcookie for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-10T15:11:12Z

Seaweeds/kelp, coconut and coconut oil would be good additions. I second the link to http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/ - all recs including the last: consider non sentient bivalves.

Answer by Pecan for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-10T15:53:17Z

A lot of people are recommending I add more fats like coconut oil, avocado and olive oil (which I do use sparingly). Do you think that if I add more fats, I should also reduce carbs? I currently eat about 1500-2000 cals of fruit/veg/potato/otherstuff a day and exercise regularly.

Answer by Chelsea for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-10T16:06:18Z

I found being vegan exasperated my ocd, anxiety, stress and mild depression. Please look into incorporating some grassfed meat, wild seafood and pastured egg yolks. Eventually you get over it. Especially after having a really good ribeye, from cows you know had a good life.And coconut oil/butter/milk are essential sources, especially if you are avoiding so many good whole, natural foods. And I totally agree you should not accept this. By doing so it becomes your normal, it was for me. Until I became so desperate that I would do anything to get my health back. (especially mentally).And please don't think this answer is condescending or belittiling your problems. I came from a place of absolute hell.

Answer by Korion for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-10T17:12:25Z

If you feel well on that diet, I don't see why you shouldn't continue eating like that... There's nothing wrong with not eating muscle meat, but it'd be better if you ate some oysters/liver just to be sure. You tolerate raw veggies?

Answer by Heidi for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-11T02:33:20Z

I echo the sentiment that you need a lot more fat and a little more protein in your diet. For fats, go for more avocado, coconut oil, nuts, palm oil and olive oil. Don't worry that this will stall your weight loss. I think you will be amazed how much better your body feels with more fat in your diet.

I noticed you didn't list beans as part of your diet? Animal protien is the healthiest protein source hands down, but if you aren't ready for this step then I believe legumes are your next best option. Green peas are "Paleo enough" and would be a fabulous option for you. Other legumes are definitely not Paleo, but they are a dense form of whole foods protein and if prepared correctly by traditional methods (e.g.pre-soaked with an acid like lemon juice or vinegar for at least 24hrs, drained, then slow cooked) they are a second-best protein source. I'm not suggesting you eat lots of beans. They do contain anti-nutrients that can cause problems. But I do believe beans are a much healthier source of protein than grains and that many people can eat modest amounts and still be very healthy.

You might check out the Whole Nine blog. They are very sensitive to vegetarians and vegans in their approach to food coaching. They don't sugar coat things. They strongly believe that a Paleo diet that includes animal foods is the optimal diet for humans, but they understand that some people can only go so far in that direction and they are very good about trying to make suggestions for healthier options for vegetarians/vegans. Here's a post that explains their position a little: http://whole9life.com/2010/02/vegetarian/

Answer by Amy B. for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-11T18:56:27Z

I hope I don't get creamed for saying this, BUT...

Considering how things here on PH sometimes devolve into pissing contests, screaming matches, and other displays of anger and general holier-than-thou attitudes, especially where veganism is concerned, I am pleasantly surprised by all the genuinely helpful and constructive answers Pecan got here.

You guys have restored my faith in this group. Some days I log in and it's like, really? This is the best we can do? Now, frankly, I think some people deserve snarky answers and are practically asking for them in the way they phrase their questions and responses, but Pecan came here with a pleasant approach looking for honest feedback, and it looks like she got it. (Sorry, Pecan...not sure of your gender. I'm assuming female.) Thank you!

Answer by matthew for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-09-12T00:50:45Z

you just need to re-frame how you feel about meat. just read more books on paleo

Answer by robin for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-10-03T01:56:38Z

I am vegan as well. And before the Paleo diet came out I was already eating pretty basic and clean. I am not convinced about the Paleo diet and have to do more research on it. Especially since quinoa is a no no. I am very conscious of my body and have a very sensitive digestion. Quinoa is a great source of complete protein and agrees with my digestion very well. I am also conscious to get as much good fat as possible. I eat alot of fruit for breakfast and by itself for snacks. By the time mid morning hits I have already had more fruit than most people have fruit and veggies all day. Then common staples in my diet that I eat almost every day are coconut oil, olive oil, apple cider vinegar, avocados, quinoa, tahini, tons of leafy green veggies as well as onions. Unfortunately I have to work on the road alot and give in to vegan pizza and cupcakes sometimes but it all balances out.

Answer by Dana for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-10-22T06:36:33Z

I am assuming that after 7 years on a vegan diet (roughly the same amount of time I've been vegan; vegetarian for 26 years though), you have probably learned from necessity many of the nutrient issues that have been raised here. I know the nutrient issues hit me hard around year 3.

I understand that your OCD and purity complex comment was primarily to counter the "eat meat" remarks as a pre-emptive strike. However, I have just recently become aware (as I have just this year weaned from my psych meds) that nutrients such as Omega 3 EPA (DHA too, but EPA is more specifically helpful to my needs), niacin, magnesium, and your B vitamins are critical for mental health and can be far more curative than pharmaceuticals if deficiency turns out to be the issue. These are also nutrients that are difficult to properly utilize in sufficient amounts from a vegan diet. I currently supplement these while I, once more, reevaluate the quantities of which foods I eat on a daily/weekly basis to make this happen. (I only wish someone had been more interested in my overall health somewhere along the way than making a buck. It would have saved me a lot of research and possibly a surgery.) By the way, if deficiency has always been the issue for me, as it seems to be, then I have been deficient since the days when I did eat meat.

Like you, I came to veganism from an ethical position, only to discover a vastly improved health after only a few months. I did not properly research it, which is why I have had to do that along the way and make adjustments. I am now on a full blown mission to complete nutritional education in order to combat a systemic autoimmunity issue that my doctors seem somewhat powerless to combat.

Based solely on the foods you listed that you eat and my past year of reading medical journals trying to figure out my own health, I suspect a need, like a couple others have mentioned, of some B vitamins and Omega 3, both of which you can get from a vegan diet or vegan supplementation. You may get what you need here already, as I feel certain that is not an all-inclusive list of your eats.

Anyway, all this is to say you're probably on the right track. I found my way here because I was starting to see the paleo diet pop up in literature here and there...not quite as often as vegan and gluten-free, but some, so I thought I would check it out. I too was looking at the possibility of incorporating it into my vegan diet. I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably shouldn't fully, but their idea is fairly sound. Processed foods and genetically modified foods are barely food, so not eating them is definitely a good plan. I had been trying to reason out why wheat (or broader, gluten) is bad for so many people. If truly we did not always eat wheat, then that makes a lot more sense. That is my next step - gluten free.

I don't really see you eating off their road map for proper diet. Even in the actual days of the hunter/gatherers, some peoples gathered more than they hunted and vice versa. Are you healthy? (Again, I doubt your OCD remark was about a health concern.) Just be healthy and you're doing just fine.

By the way, many have mentioned your weight loss. You said you were not looking to lose weight. Did I misunderstand? While I do find myself overweight, I doubt you have any weight issues on your self-described diet.

Answer by annamalia for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-10-22T09:16:54Z

I would replace some of the fruit with legumes that were properly soaked. The soaking reduces the phytic acid that prevents you from absorbing nutrients.

Are you afraid of using butter/cream that comes from happily grazing cows? Vitamin K2 is so important and if you could get your hands on raw butter...man, I will be damned if you don't like the taste of butter.

Do you eat any fermented foods? Try sauerkraut. It's really good for your digestion and improves your overall health. That kind of food is better than any probiotic supplement.

Answer by Emme for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2012-10-23T15:42:04Z

What's wrong with being or inquiring about being Paleo-Vegan? Can we move away from the judgement? Choosing not to eat meat, regardless of the reason, doesn't make someone crazy or become something they have to get over. I came upon this site while searching for Paleo-Vegan myself. After eating meat all my life and having been Paleo for the last 5 months, I recently discovered I developed an allergy to animal protein which was identified as the sole cause of my SEVERE arthritis inflammation. This was determined via a food elimination diet. Does this mean I have to give up the Paleo lifestyle I've grown into? Does it give me a free pass to bread and pasta? I'm not interested in going back. I like Paleo, but clearly can't eat animal protein. Does my Paleo diet now become 80/20 substituting SOME legumes for meat? I don't expect I'll find the answer here, but I ask you all, again, to save your judgement for those who choose (or in some cases don't have a choice) not to eat meat.

Answer by Kashkillz for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-02T16:44:54Z

To the best of my knowledge, it is not possible to receive a complete amino profile from any single vegan source. There is good news, though. Unused aminos are stored in the body until the necessary components arrive to allow use.

So, your challenge is to find a group of protein sources that compliment each other's amino profiles.

Personally, I don't like using whey, so I use Nutrifusion Multiple Source Vegan protein powder. It's tasty, well-textured, and provides a rapid-delivery of a complete amino profile. The best part, for me at least, is that it's soy-free, too.

Pea protein isolate, Artichoke protein, sprouted amaranth powder, sprouted quinoa powder

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0041556UO

Also, you may want to check out Rich Roll's podcast.

Answer by DH for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-02T16:47:44Z

I eat a carnivore Paleo Diet. and so I shall downvote you!

Answer by primalpat for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-03T00:22:03Z

Howdy Pecan! Love the name.

No one here is going to convince you to eat meat. Just like no vegan would ever be able to convince a paleo foodie to give up meat. Or eggs.

You already know what we know: b-vitamins and numerous others are found only in meat. I'd highly recommend supplementing if you aren't already.

Eat fat! Avocados, coconut, properly prepared nuts.

If you aren't opposed to eating oysters or shrimp, I say go for it.

It's already been said, but...there ain't no such thing as a 'paleo vegan' ;) But now I'm just being a smart-ass arguing semantics.

Do the best you can with what you feel comfortable with! But listen to your body and eat what it's craving.

Answer by UncleLongHair for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-03T02:32:44Z

So just to try to get a handle on the nutritional value of your diet, I entered a bunch of foods into FitDay.com. You didn't say exactly which fruits and vegetables you ate, or at what quantity, but based on your comment:

"Fruits (in the morning / first half of the day) - Vegetables (both raw and cooked) - Potatoes (sweet and white) - Nuts (sparingly, in salads for a main course and never on the same day as potatoes)."

I created a food log with:
(breakfast)
1 banana
1 papaya
1 cantaloupe

(lunch)
1 cup cooked asparagus
1 cup raw carrots
4 red potatoes, baked, with skin, with salt

(dinner)
1 oz pecans
1 TBSP olive oil
1 cup endive/chicory/romaine lettuce
1 medium sweet potato baked in skin, with salt
1 raw radish
1 artichoke, cooked
1 medium sweet raw onion

I picked these items fairly randomly, I know you said you didn't eat nuts and potatoes in the same day, but I just wanted to pick some foods that added up to a representative diet, which might be somewhat accurate over a period of weeks or months.

This adds up to 1,593 calories, which might be enough for you depending on your size and activity level. This is more calories than I eat in a typical day and I am 6' 205#.

Also let me mention that I don't think that the US RDA are gospel, but it does give a good general guideline for nurition.

This diet has the following RDA:

0 cholesterol
0% vitamin B12
0% vitamin D
41% selenium
42% calcium
62% vitamin E
70% zinc
91% riboflav
99% sodium
119% magnesium
126% pant. acid
130% niacin
131% thiamin
154% phosphorus
156% iron
159% potassium
203% manganese
258% vitamin B6
291% vitamin A 359% vitamin C

So this looks ok until you realize that there is zero vitamin D and B12, which are essential for basic health (not good health, just survival). You will die if you don't ever eat these nutrients.

Zero cholesterol sounds great if you buy into the cholesterol myth, but the truth is that most of the rest of those nutrients won't be absorbed or used by your body unless they are consumed in the presence of some kind of fat. So if you are really "sparing" with your olive oil, most of these nutrients will just pass through your system.

The only conceivable way (IMHO) that this diet could be sustainable is if you eat a bunch of supplements that provide the missing nutrients. And this must be done carefully since a supplement rich in vitamin B6 for example, but not B12, won't help.

Without resorting to vegan-bashing, I just don't see how this diet is complete, healthy, or sustainable. It seems like half of a diet to me. And as others have pointed out, eating just a little bit of quality animal such as pastured egg yolks, oysters, grass-fed meat or pastured butter, would go a long way to filling the nutritional holes. I understand that there could be ethical or psychological reasons why you don't want to do that, but you're basically slowly starving yourself.

Answer by Eric for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-03T07:41:24Z

Consuming a vegan DHA supplement is very important. As is fermented vegetables.

Answer by Pecan for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-03T10:39:29Z

Hi all. Since posting this and learning more about paleo, I've implemented some dietary changes. I'm getting more healthy fats and have cut down on tubers (favouring sweet over white). I've also discovered the wonders of coconut oil and have been using that instead of olive oil. Generally I've been making a point to watch my 03:06 ratios. And I try to consume my veggies with a fat source for better nutrient-absorption. For example, often in the evening I'll roast a bunch of veggies in coconut oil and then throw in some raw spinach leaves. My diet consists of fruit, a wide variety of vegetables (raw and cooked), coconut oil (about 2-3 tbsp a day), sometimes raw food treats (eg. bars made with cacao, dates and nut butters), nuts sparingly, green tea, occasional coffee, occasional red wine, and other stuff.

Thanks for all the advice offered. I haven't made the leap to eating meat. If I were to do so, it would be some kind of fish or oysters. But if I were going to eat fish, it'd have to be good quality and I can't really afford that. Still grosses me out, though! Also still have to take the time to locate the right supplements.

Answer by Chelsea for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-03T20:45:29Z

If you have a purity complex buy grassfed meat, free range eggs, pastured pork.

Answer by Organik for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-01-09T20:33:21Z

There sure is a lot of vegan bashing on here by people who seem to know everything about nutrition and disease. You know there are literally THOUSANDS of studies of clinical nutrition every year, and they almost never show health benefits of eating animal products, and regularly show health benefits of eating plants.

http://nutritionfacts.org

Answer by Dwight for "Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

2013-05-20T06:51:22Z

There is starting to become more and more information out there on how to be a Paleo Vegetarian. Your diet is missing healthy fats, especially Omega 3 fats, and protein. All that fruit isn't good for you either. Check out http://www.paleovegetarianhq.com/ for more information it may be your best bet.