Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle? - PaleoHacks.com [closed]

Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-15T15:42:23Z

Recent questions and answers about the "dubious" aspects of a Paleo lifestyle prodded me to investigate how women are viewed within it. There isn't much out there.

Perhaps the way to begin to investigate it is to survey people who are participating in it.

To begin, what do you think are important aspects to being a woman of child-bearing years in living a Paleo lifestyle? What about women who are of post-childbearing age? What do you think of defining women's roles via reproductive capacity? (It's pretty much done across disciplines, but that doesn't make it legitimate.)

What aspects of Paleo-ism lifestyles are different than mainstream American/Western cultures? Other cultures?

What are some of the negatives for women living a Paleo-lifestyle? Why? How could they be minimized or eliminated?

What do women value as being important in a Paleo-lifestyle? What needs to be there to make those things happen?

Answer by Carl_Stawicki for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-15T16:18:49Z

I don't think paleo has become popular enough yet for mainstream culture to form any generalizations about anyone.

Answer by Travis Culp for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-15T16:28:51Z

I think the subjugation of women is a neolithic development. Certainly females of nearly all animal species have lives that are quite a bit more difficult than the males simply as a result of having to nourish offspring during and after gestation. They also usually invest resources in their protection of the offspring for some period of time. The phenomenon of women being thought of as chattel is, in my opinion, quite recent and the result of the rise in wealth in general that is concomitant with a move toward agriculture.

Cultures without any real wealth markers such as the Hadza are thus free of this situation. Hadza women choose their husbands in stark contrast to the parental influence exerted in the various pastoralist groups that surround them. The idea that parents would force two incompatible people together is alien to them. They will voice disapproval if the man is a drunk etc. as would be expected, but even then that sentiment can be overridden by the children.

Additionally, older Hadza women (40-60) actually bring more kcals into camp than any other age-sex group, mostly as a result of digging for tubers. I think a lot of folks in the paleo community have an unrealistic view of how HG or paleolithic societies functioned where everyone either sat around eating meat or was out hunting for it, but the fact is that there would have almost certainly been a sexual division of labor coupled with various types of food sharing. Both contributions are time-consuming and equally essential to the health of the individuals as well as the societies themselves.

Answer by Ed for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-15T20:29:25Z

I know group identity is important to some here, and I may get in trouble for saying this, but to me it doesn't mean squat.

For me, paleo is about n=1. Find the best information from whatever source (gender, ethnicity or country of origin doesn't matter) and apply it to yourself, as an individual. If I can help other individuals by passing on some of my meager knowledge, that's great too.

The internet smashes hierarchies and supplies an abundance of UN-conventional wisdom. When I read a great blog entry by Melissa, Diana Hsieh or Karen De Coster, guess what?--It doesn't matter what the gender of the author is. What matters is that they know what they're talking about and can express themselves well. If they discuss a topic that doesn't apply to me or I don't find interesting, I can move on to the next entry--problem solved.

Answer by Kathi for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-15T22:31:06Z

I really gave up on worrying about how people "view me" long ago.

I have no doubt that the idea of a woman devouring blood-laden raw beef, consuming lots of fats and brushing her teeth or swishing with coconut oil would be quite shocking to most so-called "men".

I think the same image might be more "appetizing" when seen in a man though, just as belching and scratching the genitals seems to be a socially acceptable act for men.

Ignorance is everywhere...and it is very frustrating.

Especially when you dine out and see that people are convinced about their old ideas. I can see them wince when I happily consume fat and more fat and red meat, thinking poor me that I never picked up on this new science of eating whole grains and fiber (regardless of the fact that I'm thin as a rail and healthy).

And you realize there is no point in explaining the goodness you are doing for your health.

I haven't even found an effective way of explaining it to my husband. After all, if it hasn't sunk in, I haven't explained it enough or in the right language.

How about how a Paleo woman views another Paleo woman?

With a lot of respect.

There is of work involved in the kitchen, not to mention the research, and strict Paleo leaves no room for laziness.

You have to absolutely re-learn everything.

I'm know some men out there are doing the same thing, but let's admit it, today it is still mostly the women who are shopping and cooking for the family isn't it? It's one thing to throw a meal together for one person.. quite another to cook for the entire family to satisfy everyones taste buds.

Answer by Kaz for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-15T22:31:20Z

I'm not Paleo to be viewed. I'm here to optimize my health.

Worrying about how a bunch of men and women regard me is fruitless and undermines all the good that Paleo has done for me and my health. Honestly, all the people I've met have either liked me or disliked me because of who I am, not because they cared about how I ate or, God forbid, their way of eating dictate that they dislike me.

Let go of your obsession with oppression; dredging up negative emotions when there are none places blame and harbors needless animosity.

Answer by familygrokumentarian for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T00:13:23Z

I think that paleo ladies are unbelievable workhorses - in the kitchen, while grocery sourcing/shopping, and while managing to work in quality exercise! Whenever I stumble across a new paleo lady's blog, I'm usually blown away by the creativity, the versatility, the resourcefulness employed to keep friends and family, husbands and children not just sated, but genuinely satisfied and delighted to be eating paleo meals.

It takes a lot of sweat and planning to turn a ship around when you've been raised with SAD diet structures, and even more sweat and planning when you're catering to many different palates within your own household - setting aside for the moment that paleo moms are generally the primary deciders of which hills are worth dying on over school cupcake parties, grandparents and relatives offering treats, holiday celebrations, and cultural monuments to sugar like Halloween and Easter, etc.!

What is most heartening to me about these awesome paleo women is that many have/are/will go on to raise paleo kids to adulthood - and these kids (but especially the girls - more paleo female power!) in turn will in all likelihood be the core food and cooking decision makers within their own households one day. Just think of the precedent set by these pioneering current and future paleo mothers and how their decisions could reverberate for generations to come.

Whether they currently are widely seen this way is a matter of personal opinion which differs - even on PaleoHacks, but I think that paleo women should be heralded as equal partners in the paleo community and all-around rock stars to boot!

Answer by aek for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T00:15:58Z

Hunter gatherer societies/cultures involved communal ways of living. The members of those cultures lived interdependently, and as Melissa and Travis have described via some interesting examples, some roles were gender specific.

Much of PaleoHacks addresses a Paleo lifestyle. To that end I thought it would be interesting to query people who self identify with this to discuss perceptions of women and women's roles in living a modern Paleo lifestyle.

So far, the responses seem to be that it's an every person for himself/herself endeavor. Some people believe that it's a health tool, and others of you describe it as a disciplined form of diet. It seems to be very strength/primal fitness oriented with a high emphasis on youth in appearance and performance.

Am I accurate in that there isn't any sort of community that people want or actually participate in?

I am getting an angry, insulted, disgusted vibe, and I guess at this point, I'm sorry I asked the question. I'm also questioning my own participation on PaleoHacks.

I'll investigate whether I can delete the question. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

But the answers have been enlightening and have told me that I am not a good fit here.

Answer by Bread-Eating Beelzebub for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T01:33:36Z

This has been quite interesting and I'll definitely do a blog post on this topic. There are definitely huge issues, like the portrayal of women and paleo in the media.

There is sadly still some biological denialism here- women and men are VERY different. We have different nutritional needs, not radically different, but still different. Our bodies can lactate and produce children. Recognizing this isn't misandrist or misogynistic.

There are also some incorrect ideas floating around about the status of women in the paleolithic, which we really don't know much about. Hunter-gatherer cultures are diverse and some treat women like crap and others treat them quite well.

Answer by Philosopher for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T02:37:10Z

I do not think as of now that many people can say what the modern "paleo lifestyles" is providing it ever exists as such. I understand that "modern paleo" so far includes a number of people with many things in common regarding diet, several things in common regarding fitness and more or less open minded. which means that comparing "modern paleo" women status to the one enjoyed by women at hunter gatherer societies is extremely far-fetched. Besides there was huge variation in terms of women status in HG societies. As of modern paleos today, there will also be great variations in attitudes, social standing, sexual preferences, you name it...It is wide open....Now in terms of broader discussions, like the one you started some people likes them ( I do) some people do not, you know...Perhaps there should be a section (separated from diet and fitness) that deals mostly with these broader questions.

Answer by gilliebean for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T04:22:51Z

What do you think are important aspects to being a woman of child-bearing years in living a Paleo lifestyle? Most men in the paleo-sphere tend focus on workout nutrition, leaning-out nutrition or just getting balanced hormonally. But a woman of child-bearing age (like me!) is interested in creating a body (by diet) that is well-prepared to support the creation of a new life! Chris Masterjohn is the only blogger that I've seen to have posted anything about pre- or post-conception nutrition - and it was on a WAPF blog. Although, I just remembered, Chris Kresser has a new seminar called "Growing A Heathy Baby." Also cool... Robb Wolf has mentioned that it's important to discuss and learn about, but hasn't offered much in the way of advice. The best resource I've found is Weston Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, which Masterjohn's post is basically summarizing. I would like to see more paleo doctors attacking this. If we can get women well-nourished before conception, we'll start to see societal benefits!

What about women who are of post-childbearing age? I think once women are post-childbearing age, nutrition and lifestyle goals become similar to a man of that age - health and longevity.

What do you think of defining women's roles via reproductive capacity? I would like you to explain what you mean here. Are you talking about 'as opposed to men' or are you talking about 'as opposed to each other'?

What aspects of Paleo-ism lifestyles are different than mainstream American/Western cultures? Other cultures? As a woman, my desire to create a proper baby-making body is counter-cultural because it is the opposite of selfish. It is "for my baby" even before I've conceived. From Weston Price's book, we see that many cultures practiced specific nutrition for women up to six (6) months before conception! Talk about putting focus on reproduction and not our own desires!

What are some of the negatives for women living a Paleo-lifestyle? Why? How could they be minimized or eliminated? The only negatives that I can come up with are simply typical, across-the-board negatives (peer confusion, peer pressure, refined carb and sugar temptation, tweeking carb needs). I can't think of any negatives that are female-specific, other than the ones that Melissa has mentioned (ie. because we're women, we're left out of sensationalist news stories).

What do women value as being important in a Paleo-lifestyle? What needs to be there to make those things happen? I value the ease of access of good quality meats and offal - grass-fed and pastured. I value the limited carbon footprint of this access. I value the ease of access of other foods (veggies, nuts, seeds, and berries) that are grown locally, organically, and in-season. I value the opportunity to meet with other women who are feeding a family and share ideas about how to continue to transition from the mundane (conventional wisdom) to the paleo lifestyle.

Answer by Mitschu for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T06:18:11Z

Recent questions and answers about the "dubious" aspects of a Paleo lifestyle prodded me to investigate how women are viewed within it. There isn't much out there.

It would be enlightening to know what you consider to be the "dubious" aspects of living Paleo are. It sounds as if you are coming in with a bit of a vague bias, and looking for people to disprove it.

The question seems very similar in nature to the article http://paleohacks.com/questions/579/more-men-than-women-are-paleo, which discusses why there appears to be a larger focus on men in the Paleo lifestyle - primarily, because more men follow it faithfully. It might be worth a read, if you have the time and inclination.

Perhaps the way to begin to investigate it is to survey people who are participating in it.

Perhaps. But you will receive a larger sampling of males for the aforementioned reasons.

First, Paleolithic living is not exactly "caveman / cavewoman" - it's a lifestyle choice primarily focused on maintaining your health, not on establishing or maintaining gender roles. Frankly, people have differing opinions on gender establishment, and that won't really change solely because of their living Paleo or not.

Important aspects to being a woman of child-bearing age in Paleo? Maintaining and sustaining your health, obviously, with a focus on being a sound vessel for a child to pass through (unless your desire is to not have children, in which case:)

Important aspects to being a woman of post-bearing age / do not wish to have children? Again, maintaining and sustaining your health. Being Paleo shouldn't change your priorities, merely make obtaining the goal of healthy living easier.

What aspects of Paleo-ism lifestyles are different than mainstream American/Western cultures? Other cultures?

Healthy living through intelligent and healthful choices, rather than ridiculous speed diets and instant exercise regimens. That still remains the primary focus of Paleo. If you are asking about gender roles in Paleo, then I still stand by my prior statement, that reestablishing gender roles is not a goal of Paleo.

What are some of the negatives for women living a Paleo-lifestyle? Why? How could they be minimized or eliminated?

Some people discover allergies and intolerancies much later in life than others, and any change in diet or activity can reveal these issues. For women specifically, I'd say that swapping your diet during pregnancy could lead to unwanted complications, and should be avoided or practiced responsibly. Some women also report that their periods change, and that they fluctuate in weight loss and gain during hormonal peaks after switching to Paleo. Being mature and patient are key requirements to minimizing the impact that these changes might have on your body.

What do women value as being important in a Paleo-lifestyle? What needs to be there to make those things happen?

Several women have already fielded this question in other comments / answers, so I'll just close with a reminder: Making a Paleo lifestyle work for you is your own responsibility. The things that need to be there to make your lifestyle work out for you are entirely internal. Patience, maturity, moderation, and commitment.

Answer by Ali for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T17:42:43Z

Paleo in a nutshell, for me, is trying to be as healthy as I can be. As a woman, that might mean having different needs than it would for a man. But I don't see following the paleo diet as being any different from any other diet in the respect that women are going to require different things than men, especially if having kids comes into play.

Those who have mentioned that women are primarily responsible for meals stood out to me. I do most of the cooking and I've found it difficult to stick to my paleo-ish ways while still respecting my husband's non-paleo ways. I don't have the right to tell him he can't have pasta (for example); then again, as the one who cooks dinner, I don't believe in cooking more than one meal in one night b/c someone doesn't like what's on the menu. So my current quandary is whether to avoid an argument over why I never cook pasta, or avoid an argument over why he can't cook his own pasta if he wants it (or maybe argue both things in the same argument, lol).

One thing about the paleo diet that I have personally experienced as being a woman's issue is trying to better my health with respect to menses. My "symptoms," if you will, have become increasingly difficult to manage in the last couple years (I'm 27). After my ob/gyn told me to just take more Advil, I decided CW was not the way to go.

I haven't decided whether or not kids will be a factor for me, but part of the reason I want to be in prime condition is just in case I do decide to have children: so they can develop in the best environment I can provide, and so that I can be an example of what a healthy person is.

Answer by nonnee for Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

2011-03-16T22:45:25Z

No, Patrick, not very well said at all. You conflate description with disparagement. Elizabeth has disparaged no one, and she apologized for using a word you did not like. Indeed, the backhanded "compliments" assigning women to that of cook, cleaner and shopper above are much more disparaging - and widely accepted here.

There is stereotyping galore on this site by many commenters, and there are so many so enmeshed in it that you can't see it for what it is: lame, discriminatory, unenlightened and ill-informed.

And as to your "grumbling" about my question, two points:

Your site is clearly labeled to include a object of discussing a "Paleo lifestyle". Lifestyle includes society and roles of members, be they work, social, familial, etc. So as far as I am able to perceive, my question was wholly appropriate for this site.

And two: I investigated withdrawing the question and I was unable to do it. You, however, are the keeper of the keys to your kingdom. Delete the question if it so worries you. You are welcome to delete every single thing that I posted here in any and every format.

That said, I've found the responses to most questions to be overwhelmingly juvenile, ill-informed and willfully ignorant about a wide variety of basic concepts: historical, sociological, anthropological, science, health and medicine. Sometimes it seems that all that's missing is a reel of the Flintstones.

I came here on the recommendation of Kurt Harris. I leave after a month plus long effort at reading, observing and participating in good faith.

I'm not sure what you're "hacking", but I'm hacking up some foul stuff and need fresh air.