Medium avatar
0

Amino acid balance/restriction for longevity...

by (598)
Updated about 4 hours ago
Created April 11, 2014 at 11:04 PM

So far I have:

  • Protein restriction may be as effective as caloric restriction on life extension... in fact protein restriction may be WHY caloric restriction works, for all I know...
  • Leucine and Methinoine restriction has been shown to have similar effects and, for all I know might be WHY protein restriction works!!! Let me know if I'm off in this reasoning.
  • Extra dietary Glycine might have the same effect as restricting Methenoine, I think it helps eliminate excess Methenoine or something... (thank you, @Stephen 4 and @Mscott1!)

An interesting picture is coming together. Any other insights on the effects of amino acid balance on the aging process?

It seems to me that if we can reduce insulin + IGF, and manage our aging signals like mTOR (what others are there?) then enhanced health and longevity could be attained without engaging in any detrimental practices like starvation.

Medium avatar
598 · April 20, 2014 at 3:30 PM

I happen to like Ray Peat's work. I certainly wouldn't live by it but then he doesn't offer much of a diet/lifestyle prescription (at least nothing I could find on his site, though I've heard rumor that he has a book out which he never promotes)...

What Ray Peat offers is an incredibly insightful look into the science of nutrition. He doesn't have to be always right as long as readers exercise discretion. I'd wager he's right more than twice a day and gets some things right that Paleo BigHeads miss.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41544 · April 15, 2014 at 11:00 PM

He's only right twice a day, the rest of the time, he's worthless.

Medium avatar
598 · April 15, 2014 at 10:30 PM

I've taken to eating about 70-80% yolk for about a year. I do eat some of the whites some of the time but I rarely eat "whole egg" as I see little use for the whites. The yolks taste better, look better, and provide almost all the nutrients the egg has to offer.

Medium avatar
598 · April 15, 2014 at 10:18 PM

Oh, to answer your question no I wouldn't engage in celibacy as part of an "experiment" in longevity. However, if it were proven effective I might give it some thought. In case you're curious I'm 29. I don't know how young that makes me, but I do feel like my "youth" is slipping away quickly, which may be a part of my motivation.

B82f2515ba5a800bed018c9536f9108d
1262 · April 14, 2014 at 9:45 PM

Although I agree with Ray, with what we know, it is probably best to just eat the yolk. It has many goodies, and the white has avidin. I can't bring myself to do it because I was taught not to waste food, but if I had chickens they would get all their whites back. You can always rebalance a yolk with a bowl of broth. No need to bring liver in this discussion, liver has a lot of glycine and not a lot of methionine.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5
10994 · April 14, 2014 at 9:38 PM

All clocks are off to a degree, it's the order of magnitude of the error that makes the difference.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41544 · April 14, 2014 at 9:27 PM

Ehhhhh, Peat. I would not rely on a broken clock to tell time!

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5
10994 · April 14, 2014 at 6:13 PM

@raydawg, what you're saying is speculative. We each know there is no scientific data to support the idea that a high egg yolk/ liver diet will alleviate all deleterious effects of excess amounts of the amino acid methionine in rats much less in human beings. Unless you can prove otherwise? You can say it will help but the data isn't strong enough to say "If you eat extra yolks, or beef liver, you're all set for dealing with the excess from meats as well".

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84
17412 · April 14, 2014 at 6:09 PM

True, however egg yolks are high in B6, B12, and folate, all of which can help with the homocysteine cycle - if you eat the whole egg, you have enough of those to dispose of the methionine, if you eat the CW egg white omelet you're screwed. But, if you eat extra yolks, or beef liver, you're all set for dealing with the excess from meats as well.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c
787 · April 14, 2014 at 3:34 PM

Supposedly pig skin is ideal for humans as its so similar to ours, pig skin soup is delicious, although the hairs can be off putting! When I make a broth with a pigs trotter it's almost solid jelly.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c
787 · April 14, 2014 at 3:29 PM

Once your in the routine of making broth it's really easy, as with most things its just getting back into it, once the balls rolling...

I will order some salmon sashimi soon & mackerel if they have it in season. I'm not a massive fan of smoked salmon but reckon I could do it without being smoked.

Medium avatar
598 · April 14, 2014 at 3:21 PM

I definitely need to get more broth/stock in my diet. I love the stuff and it makes me feel great but I keep making excuses.

Definitely try sushi. Salmon sashimi is by far my favorite meat, but too expensive to have regularly. Macarel sushi/sashimi is usually served skin-on and has a chewier, fishier, meatier testure/taste than salmon. The salmon just melts away in your mouth if the quality is high. Look for thick white lines.

6fece842bd1bcf5724f458a302a2156e
1169 · April 14, 2014 at 11:25 AM

I'm a skin lover too. I wish I could find a source of more chicken, fish etc skin - I often feel that is the bit I need more than what is under the skin.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c
787 · April 14, 2014 at 9:57 AM

I drink a couple cups of gelatinous broth a day and think the benefits build up over time, like months & months of having the broth regularly, I definitely feel great drinking broth/fat during the day then eating muscle meat at night.

+1 for the fish skin, I recently started eating smoked mackerel with the skin on & apart from being uber delicious I noticed better skin health on myself. I NEED to try sushi, I love fish so much I can't believe I haven't tried it yet

B82f2515ba5a800bed018c9536f9108d
1262 · April 14, 2014 at 1:08 AM

also, I have been making an effort, even before Methodician's and Stephen posts, to eat more of the gristle in a steak and the skin of a chicken. All simple changes.

B82f2515ba5a800bed018c9536f9108d
1262 · April 14, 2014 at 1:05 AM

I think you want to install simple rules in your life. The comments I have seen in other threads about this topic are of the sort "I am too busy living my life" which could be said by anyone eating a SAD diet. If I am already drinking a fruit smoothie with potato starch every second day, it should not be difficult to also add some quality gelatin, and reap about six health benefits. Plus other benefits not listed on web sites. My FIL just came down with inguinal hernia, and my father suffered a lot with it two years ago. I bet gelatin helps prevent it.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
1197 · April 14, 2014 at 12:42 AM

One can tell that you are really young. I imagine once you are occupied with living a long, rich, healthy, complex life the thoughts of trying to live to be as old as possible will fade, and thoughts of squeezing all of the great things out of the time you have will replace them. But I wish you luck - whatever interests you is cool. But seriously, some people believe that abstaining from sex increases longevity. Would you be celibate in order to engage in an experiment in longevity? (I don't mean to railroad the threa - I'm just truly interested. If this is annoying, don't answer!Thnx)

B82f2515ba5a800bed018c9536f9108d
1262 · April 13, 2014 at 8:14 PM

entomophagy is my hobby. and if you read those papers you are going to be amazed at the efficiency and nutrient content of these things. Basically, my daily poop translates into a big steak with a side of liver, for most micronutrients that we intake principally from meat. The real problem is how you can make them reproduce at home.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
1005 · April 13, 2014 at 7:53 PM

Fly larvae, eh? I almost bought a box of cricket protein the other day -- it looks like a 4.0 ratio of glycine / methionine. Where are the grassfed crickets at?

http://labs.russell.wisc.edu/insectsasfood/files/2012/09/8_ProtQualityCricketChicks.pdf

B82f2515ba5a800bed018c9536f9108d
1262 · April 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM

I meant download. sorry. I work at a university, from work I can access them.

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM

Wow awesome. Thanks for all the info Stephen! Makes me feel a little less weird to know other people out there happily obsess over these things too.

I have definitely enjoyed crispy salmon skins either on the fillet or in sushi. I also have quite a taste for beef tendon (at least as it appears in pho) so I'll have to look into sourcing the stuff and see if it's something I could fit into my own diet.

I really appreciate the detail with which you've laid out your own findings and hopefully others can benefit as much as I have.

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 5:56 PM

I'm curious: what is it you do? What did you mean you "upload" those papers?

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 5:49 PM

Very insightful, glib. In particular your first paragraph - a real faceplam "aha"... of course we shouldn't need as much muscle meat in adulthood unless we're serious athletes. Adults, particularly in western society, don't work their skeletal muscles heavily. We do face toxins, pollution, astringents and detergents, oxidative stress, etc... and would need to repair our organs, brain and skin.

Put simply: our endoderm and ectoderm experience greater stress than our mesoderm, unless we're highly athletic.

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 5:37 PM

The funny thing is I don't "stress" over it much. It's actually quite a soothing topic. I'm still pretty young and haven't terribly ravaged my body yet, so I figure I still have time to figure things out. Uncovering these details could not only give me a few extra years but help me feel better in the mean time and, ultimately, could improve my chances of living forever. Yeah, I just went there.

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 5:35 PM

Will do...

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41544 · April 13, 2014 at 4:28 PM

The more points you have, the snarkier you are.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41544 · April 13, 2014 at 4:28 PM

LOL, true!

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5
10994 · April 13, 2014 at 1:20 PM

What do they say about longevity?

Medium avatar
91 · April 13, 2014 at 2:43 AM

Methodician if you are really that interested in longevity I would recommend that you check out the immortality institute other wise known as Longecity.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc
690 · April 13, 2014 at 12:55 AM

People w/ OCD don't live longer....

it just seems longer and more complicated. :)

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5
10994 · April 13, 2014 at 12:12 AM

Lol Matt, you big pointed bully!

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41544 · April 13, 2014 at 12:04 AM

Haven't you died yet from stressing over diet too much? :)

  • Total Views
    1.5K
  • Recent Activity
    32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
  • Last Activity
    221D AGO
  • Followers
    4

Get Free Paleo Recipes Instantly

2 Answers

best answer

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5
0
10994 · April 13, 2014 at 1:18 AM

Hey Methodician,

I want to start off by saying that I think that this is a great question. I love to see people striving for the best!

I personally have experimented with my diet and exercise patterns for a few years now, 3 or 4 probably. Something I'm trying now is experimenting with Glycine and Proline rich foods.@Glib mentioned that nutrition data doesn't have amino acid profiles on many organ meats which is true. I believe that if a food smells or tastes bad then that is your body saying not to eat it. Because of that I've tried Beef Tendons and Burnt Beef Skin and discontinued their use. I want a natural source and as scantly processed as possible, because of this I've also tried and stopped Pork Rinds (personal preference). These 3 foods significantly effected my bowels in a positive manner and I usually have okay bowels.

Today I went to Kroger (grocery store) and found some small fish with relatively low fat (I'm not into a ton of PUFAs, personal taste). The fish I bought is called Haddock and the skin is on. I like chicken skin, and fish skin is tasting just as nice to me, especially when it's a little crispy. Make sure the fish are descaled obviously, the fish in the store should already be descaled though.

In passing I have done some research on glycine (only because it is the most common amino acid in collagen, which is the most common protein in your body [accounting for about a third of the protein in your body]). Proline is also abundant in collagen / connective tissue. I will mention some of the things I've found which I believe are relevant. I'm going by memory and these points are only meant to stimulate personal research on your part and are not necessarily meant to be 100% accurate:

  • Glycine lowered igf1 from 1.4 to 1 in controls vs glycine supplemented groups.
  • Glycine at 12% of diet increased life expectancy but slightly decreased overall body size in mice. Similar life extension without a decrease in body size occurred at 8% supplemented glycine in diet.
  • Glycine reduced mortality in sepsis which was induced in mice from 50% to 0% (zero is not a type).
  • Glycine will lower your blood pressure (eating 2 bags of pork rinds a day for 3 days dropped my BP from approx. 130/78 to approx 109/59). Obviously my n=1 isn't clinical but there is clinical evidence to support this.
  • Assuming 95% success in collagen recycling, the body is deficient in Glycine by 10g/day assuming 3g dietary intake and 2g conversion from serine.
  • Glycine is used in the clinical treatment of schizophrenia.

The studies that show which amino acids are essential or not are based on the promotion of growth. The essential amino acids promote growth (original studies done by cattle industries to increase profits) and not necessarily health (assuming protein to meet essential bodily functions is met). Growth is independent of health just as quantity is independent of quality.

The skin is the biggest organ in the body. When we eat only muscle meats we will necessarily have an unbalanced amino acid profile in our diet. How well our bodies adjust to this imbalance will vary on an individual basis and genetic factors could theoretically come into play here.

I personally do not believe that simply including glycine rich foods will be a magic cure all. I believe that regular exercise, as well as other micro and macro nutrients will be necessary to have ideal health and to thrive. That being said I think there is sound scientific and anecdotal evidence that balancing these amino acids will significantly improve many people's Quality of life.

After a lot of experimenting I've fine tuned my personal habits and used those fine tunnings to help people around me in my personal life. Some people say this is obsessive behavior, but I've come to the conclusion that I have an addictive personality, luckily I've found a hobby to get addicted to that will hopefully improve quality of life for me and others alike!

Hopefully I've given you a few ideas to further research yourself, and some food ideas (fish with skin, I'm trying haddock, but feel free to experiment with any fish, any organ or any animal).

Ray Peat also has an article titled Gelatin, stress, longevity where a few dozen articles cited might pique further interest. Best of luck finding something that works for you and those around you!

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 6:13 PM

Wow awesome. Thanks for all the info Stephen! Makes me feel a little less weird to know other people out there happily obsess over these things too.

I have definitely enjoyed crispy salmon skins either on the fillet or in sushi. I also have quite a taste for beef tendon (at least as it appears in pho) so I'll have to look into sourcing the stuff and see if it's something I could fit into my own diet.

I really appreciate the detail with which you've laid out your own findings and hopefully others can benefit as much as I have.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41544 · April 14, 2014 at 9:27 PM

Ehhhhh, Peat. I would not rely on a broken clock to tell time!

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c
787 · April 14, 2014 at 9:57 AM

I drink a couple cups of gelatinous broth a day and think the benefits build up over time, like months & months of having the broth regularly, I definitely feel great drinking broth/fat during the day then eating muscle meat at night.

+1 for the fish skin, I recently started eating smoked mackerel with the skin on & apart from being uber delicious I noticed better skin health on myself. I NEED to try sushi, I love fish so much I can't believe I haven't tried it yet

6fece842bd1bcf5724f458a302a2156e
1169 · April 14, 2014 at 11:25 AM

I'm a skin lover too. I wish I could find a source of more chicken, fish etc skin - I often feel that is the bit I need more than what is under the skin.

B82f2515ba5a800bed018c9536f9108d
0
1262 · April 12, 2014 at 11:57 PM

It is all very interesting. If there is an ideal fat spectrum, I see no reason why there should not be an ideal protein spectrum. Spectra can be different, more methionine (met) during childhood, more glycine during adulthood. I note that in an adult protein needs are mostly to replace membrane losses (skin and gut), therefore more glycine is a natural need.

Last night I had to be in an overseas Skype conference. I had a lot of time to research the issue. nutritiondata.com is really a limited tool, it does not tell you the protein spectrum for skin, for tripe, for tendons, it just tells you that if you want glycine you have to eat gelatin. To me it is clear that the glycine/met ratio and glycine/leucine ratios matter.

and if you pull enough protein spectra from nutrition data a fairly clear cut picture emerges. the foods with too high met are fish, muscle meat, eggs (both yolk and white), and worst of all dairy. The foods with a gly./met ratio of 2.5-3 are offal, fatty cuts (pork and beef), whole chicken, mollusks. Out of curiosity, I also checked the protein profile of black soldier fly larvae at

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/waste_mgt/smithfield_projects/phase2report05/cd,web%20files/A2.pdf

and came out with 2.5-3 numbers too.

So my conclusions are that you want to shift as much as possible away from "western" paleo (standard western protein sources), and you can not really do without broth. I was able Friday to upload all those papers that Stephen and Scott linked (great job all three of you), and I think this protein profile thing has legs.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
1005 · April 13, 2014 at 7:53 PM

Fly larvae, eh? I almost bought a box of cricket protein the other day -- it looks like a 4.0 ratio of glycine / methionine. Where are the grassfed crickets at?

http://labs.russell.wisc.edu/insectsasfood/files/2012/09/8_ProtQualityCricketChicks.pdf

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 5:49 PM

Very insightful, glib. In particular your first paragraph - a real faceplam "aha"... of course we shouldn't need as much muscle meat in adulthood unless we're serious athletes. Adults, particularly in western society, don't work their skeletal muscles heavily. We do face toxins, pollution, astringents and detergents, oxidative stress, etc... and would need to repair our organs, brain and skin.

Put simply: our endoderm and ectoderm experience greater stress than our mesoderm, unless we're highly athletic.

Medium avatar
598 · April 13, 2014 at 5:56 PM

I'm curious: what is it you do? What did you mean you "upload" those papers?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84
17412 · April 14, 2014 at 6:09 PM

True, however egg yolks are high in B6, B12, and folate, all of which can help with the homocysteine cycle - if you eat the whole egg, you have enough of those to dispose of the methionine, if you eat the CW egg white omelet you're screwed. But, if you eat extra yolks, or beef liver, you're all set for dealing with the excess from meats as well.

Answer Question

Login to Your PaleoHacks Account

Get Free Paleo Recipes