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Carbohydrate Deficiency

by (5232)
Updated about 4 hours ago
Created November 11, 2010 at 12:20 AM

The fine folks at the Perfect Health Diet are proposing that we need to start looking for evidence of carbohydrate deficiency. They state that humans are likely the only animal this would effect due to the unlikely combination of a large brain and a relatively small liver. What are your thoughts? Or maybe more aptly, why do you disagree?

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1032

  • Update 1: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1077 - 600 calories of carbs / protein is their recommendation.
  • Update 2: Scurvy http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1139
  • Update 3: Kidney stones http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1177
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    11986 · June 03, 2011 at 1:31 PM

    Another late note: Stancel, the term "zero-carb" is a convenient handle. It doesn't always mean the ZCer is looking to avoid any and all carbohydrate. Usually it denotes eating from all-animal sources, including organs and dairy and eggs, all of which contain trace (and sometimes more) carbs. Although, as pfw notes, there are folks who've eaten nothing but muscle meat for years and they're apparently fine.

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    11986 · June 03, 2011 at 1:17 PM

    Just as a very late note to your idea of "illadaptation" (I like it), Stephen Phinney talks about ketoadaptation in one of his papers, and says it can take up to six weeks for some people, and the process is only made longer if carbs are continually added back in; in other words, if ketosis isn't steadily maintained during the adaptation period. I'm not saying this is true in every case, but I sure do see it a lot among folks who try to go VLC or ZC. And Stefansson's account anecdotally supports the "go big or go home" idea.

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    11986 · June 03, 2011 at 1:12 PM

    Late to the party, as usual. This was my experience, too. I tried ZC for weight loss, and my RA symptoms evaporated. For that lottery prize, I'm totally happy to risk some vague, hand-wavy carbohydrate "deficiency." (And go, Alan! I'll be right there at 100 with ya!)

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    10 · May 31, 2011 at 12:26 PM

    Lex got 2 kidney stones recently, BTW.

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    1781 · November 22, 2010 at 2:53 AM

    "If you eat zero carb... your lifelong autoimmune problems will clear up and you'll be healthy with no obvious deficiency?" Love it!! My experience exactly. I do so well on low/zero carbs that I don't actively seek them at all but do actively avoid most of them, grains etc. I don't believe zero-carb to be suboptimal at all and I'll prove it to you when I hit 100 in another 45 years.

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    4163 · November 21, 2010 at 11:53 AM

    +1 on the book recommendation, it really is excellent, so technical but very easy to understand.. I'm actually doing much better on 100g of 'safe' carbs a day than I was on ketogenic, which seemed to worsen my depression.

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    20787 · November 21, 2010 at 4:39 AM

    Interesting. I have never felt thirsty on low carb. Just the reverse actually. The more carb I eat, the thirstier I get. I am sometimes amazed at my apparent lack of thirst or need for water when not eating carbs. Just goes to show how different one person is from the next.

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    373 · November 17, 2010 at 10:04 AM

    "just as our ancestors did" ... where are you getting that our ancestors were VLC?

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    7821 · November 16, 2010 at 5:27 PM

    I have crohn's, treating it based on Ebringer (bacterial proteins mimic body proteins causing auto-immune). I don't think it would be possible to have an auto-immune response to "carbs", or if it was, you'd be dead pretty quick since glucose in your blood is required for being alive. My point is that if their hypothesis predicts immune system dysfunction, I stand as a falsified prediction, and they need to go back to work on their hypothesis.

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    22913 · November 16, 2010 at 2:33 PM

    Maybe your autoimmune wasn't carb based but specific protein based, say Gluten?

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    7821 · November 16, 2010 at 11:14 AM

    Everyone eating "zero carb" right now doesn't have scurvy, including those people who have been eating cooked muscle meat only for years. Your assertion is thus falsified.

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    9948 · November 12, 2010 at 7:50 PM

    Yes, have heard of people who complain that their energy nosedives when going on grass fed beef..whether cooked or raw..because some grass fed does not have enough fat..meaning calories..to sustain their level of activity. I have not seen any studies designed to support your hypothesis that uncooked meat results in a loss of energy. Can you provide links? Lex has a fat meter that measures the fat content in his beef and then he adds rendered fat to the mix so that he gets his 75/25% mix. I suspect your drained experience had to do with the fat content of your grass fed not being sufficient.

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    2399 · November 12, 2010 at 9:49 AM

    Paul: Yeah :D I'm a book-buying addict too.

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    7324 · November 11, 2010 at 10:41 PM

    lkco, it explains everything out well, with actual references! And if I had to chose a book to give to my doctor or someone I really wanted to convince, I think it would do a better job than the other two.

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    9647 · November 11, 2010 at 5:37 PM

    @Ikco, I'm kind of wondering if people like the book a lot because it explains the physiology of nutrition very clearly. Judging by some of the comments on Amazon, that might be the case. I'm thinking about buying it -- but then again I have a bad book-buying habit.

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    820 · November 11, 2010 at 5:35 PM

    That's purely anecdotal and no one should take Lex's experience as indicative of the whole. Remember, raw food takes a lot of energy to digest. Maybe he can deal with the extra expenditure but I am a very active person. I spent a week eating raw grass finished beef and I spent that week completely drained. I switched back to lightly cooked foods and it all went away. Humans have been eating cooked foods and carbs for quite a long time. Granted, if the only carbs people are eating are empty starches and sugar I can't imagine that being essential.

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    9948 · November 11, 2010 at 5:07 PM

    Last time I checked, we are all animals in the best sense. Lex's eating is not extremist to him and he does not advocate anyone else follow his example. If you eat anything other than meat and fat, you may be the extremist, when applied to your ancestry. He is an experiment that is thriving when there are many of Eva's "sick animals" thrashing around on PaleoHacks asking what is the perfect paleo diet.

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    762 · November 11, 2010 at 2:11 PM

    Eating just to survive sounds animalistic in the worst sense. We enjoy preparing and eating food. Since natural food tastes quite good, why glorify an extremist position?

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    18671 · November 11, 2010 at 2:00 PM

    You don't even need the fruits and veggies. On a zero carb diet, you body makes the glucose it needs via gluconeogenesis out of protein.

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    2399 · November 11, 2010 at 1:39 PM

    Better than Paleo Solution and Blueprint ? Why ? Thanks :)

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    602 · November 11, 2010 at 11:24 AM

    Yes glucose if you want to be specific.

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    19220 · November 11, 2010 at 9:54 AM

    Except our ancestors did not.

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    19220 · November 11, 2010 at 9:53 AM

    I'm sure you could equally find someone who has not eaten any animal products for 4 years and is in good health. Does this prove that there are no essential animal products and that humans can live perfectly normal lives on plants only?

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    20787 · November 11, 2010 at 5:33 AM

    Doesn't sound like they really have a case but more are just hypothesizing and data gathering. Nothing wrong with that specifically.

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    20787 · November 11, 2010 at 5:32 AM

    I'd be surprised if we and our livers were not designed to handle low carb living seeing as how carbs were not a reliable food source in many areas of the world. Is gluconeogenesis really that much of a terrible and horrible strain on our poor feeble livers? However, I have no problem if they want to openmindedly explore the issue further. Could be that for some people, an optimal diet includes some level of healthy carb consumption.

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    40 · November 11, 2010 at 5:19 AM

    I guess you meant glucose.

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    7324 · November 11, 2010 at 2:33 AM

    I don't believe they are saying it will definitely occur, just that it can.

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    1085 · November 11, 2010 at 2:23 AM

    I am currently reading the book. So far I agree with mari, it is one of the best nutrition books I have read.

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    1085 · November 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM

    I have found this to be true for me too.

    D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930
    5232 · November 11, 2010 at 12:35 AM

    Does going too low carb put too large of a burden on the liver over the long haul?

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    8 Answers

    4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff
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    7821 · November 11, 2010 at 1:58 AM

    I'm skeptical. My auto-immune gut disease got better on zero carb, and I get sick less, which is exactly the opposite result predicted by their hypothesis. Which in itself seems somewhat absurd - deficiencies are real, measurable things with definite symptoms. If you eat zero fat, you'll get EFA deficiencies that will eventually kill you. If you eat zero protein, your body will be unable to accomplish a zillion tasks and you will die. If you eat zero carb... your lifelong autoimmune problems will clear up and you'll be healthy with no obvious deficiency?

    Maybe zero-carb is suboptimal in the long term, but calling suboptimal a deficiency is abusing the term deficiency. You get real symptoms and real problems with deficiencies, not long-term survival with no obvious problems (ie Inuit).

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    1085 · November 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM

    I have found this to be true for me too.

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    7324 · November 11, 2010 at 2:33 AM

    I don't believe they are saying it will definitely occur, just that it can.

    4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff
    7821 · November 16, 2010 at 5:27 PM

    I have crohn's, treating it based on Ebringer (bacterial proteins mimic body proteins causing auto-immune). I don't think it would be possible to have an auto-immune response to "carbs", or if it was, you'd be dead pretty quick since glucose in your blood is required for being alive. My point is that if their hypothesis predicts immune system dysfunction, I stand as a falsified prediction, and they need to go back to work on their hypothesis.

    4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1
    22913 · November 16, 2010 at 2:33 PM

    Maybe your autoimmune wasn't carb based but specific protein based, say Gluten?

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    1781 · November 22, 2010 at 2:53 AM

    "If you eat zero carb... your lifelong autoimmune problems will clear up and you'll be healthy with no obvious deficiency?" Love it!! My experience exactly. I do so well on low/zero carbs that I don't actively seek them at all but do actively avoid most of them, grains etc. I don't believe zero-carb to be suboptimal at all and I'll prove it to you when I hit 100 in another 45 years.

    3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
    11986 · June 03, 2011 at 1:12 PM

    Late to the party, as usual. This was my experience, too. I tried ZC for weight loss, and my RA symptoms evaporated. For that lottery prize, I'm totally happy to risk some vague, hand-wavy carbohydrate "deficiency." (And go, Alan! I'll be right there at 100 with ya!)

    06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458
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    9948 · November 11, 2010 at 4:09 AM

    You have only to follow Lex Rooker's n=1 4 year on going experiment in eating only grass fed meat and fat. His Dexa bone scans, his blood lipids, blood glucose are all excellent. He is truly zero carb and the meat and fat he eats daily...once a day comprises about 75% fat and 25% protein...and is eaten raw. About 2 pounds a day eaten at 2pm. No supplements. Lex does not consider eating a recreational sport...or a satisfying activity. He only eats to survive...not to seek pleasure.

    Read his odyssey: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/lex's-journal/ 124 pages going from June 2008 to present.

    The moral: There are no essential carbohydrates. Humans can live perfectly normal lives on meat and fat only....just as our ancesters did.

    0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
    19220 · November 11, 2010 at 9:53 AM

    I'm sure you could equally find someone who has not eaten any animal products for 4 years and is in good health. Does this prove that there are no essential animal products and that humans can live perfectly normal lives on plants only?

    4e40d2b9e1a762949a25b958762aa10d
    762 · November 11, 2010 at 2:11 PM

    Eating just to survive sounds animalistic in the worst sense. We enjoy preparing and eating food. Since natural food tastes quite good, why glorify an extremist position?

    9f187c931f7ce55d375ed5806e254aaf
    820 · November 11, 2010 at 5:35 PM

    That's purely anecdotal and no one should take Lex's experience as indicative of the whole. Remember, raw food takes a lot of energy to digest. Maybe he can deal with the extra expenditure but I am a very active person. I spent a week eating raw grass finished beef and I spent that week completely drained. I switched back to lightly cooked foods and it all went away. Humans have been eating cooked foods and carbs for quite a long time. Granted, if the only carbs people are eating are empty starches and sugar I can't imagine that being essential.

    0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
    19220 · November 11, 2010 at 9:54 AM

    Except our ancestors did not.

    06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458
    9948 · November 12, 2010 at 7:50 PM

    Yes, have heard of people who complain that their energy nosedives when going on grass fed beef..whether cooked or raw..because some grass fed does not have enough fat..meaning calories..to sustain their level of activity. I have not seen any studies designed to support your hypothesis that uncooked meat results in a loss of energy. Can you provide links? Lex has a fat meter that measures the fat content in his beef and then he adds rendered fat to the mix so that he gets his 75/25% mix. I suspect your drained experience had to do with the fat content of your grass fed not being sufficient.

    06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458
    9948 · November 11, 2010 at 5:07 PM

    Last time I checked, we are all animals in the best sense. Lex's eating is not extremist to him and he does not advocate anyone else follow his example. If you eat anything other than meat and fat, you may be the extremist, when applied to your ancestry. He is an experiment that is thriving when there are many of Eva's "sick animals" thrashing around on PaleoHacks asking what is the perfect paleo diet.

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    373 · November 17, 2010 at 10:04 AM

    "just as our ancestors did" ... where are you getting that our ancestors were VLC?

    9c0a747b4b5e6291cf37ca5c066cc64b
    10 · May 31, 2011 at 12:26 PM

    Lex got 2 kidney stones recently, BTW.

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    20787 · November 11, 2010 at 5:05 AM

    I am not closed to the idea that for some people, very low carb may be suboptimal or perhaps even make it to a point of deficiency. Some people may not be well designed for large amounts of gluconeogenesis. Or perhaps a lifetime of poor eating, toxins, poor nutrition in the womb, etc may have made them thus. A sick animal will not always do best on the same diet as a robust healthy animal. If you look around at how many pills the average person takes, most of us are in the 'sick animal' category. Certainly, I have heard some people say they felt like crap on very low carb but much better on say 70 to 100 grams carb per day. I would say 'feeling like crap' counts as a possible sign of deficiency or ill adaptation of some kind. I am more inclined to call it an illadaptation though. "Deficiency" makes it sound like it will hold for the general population but seems like at least half the population (that tries it) feels very good on very low carb. I also think that we should first make sure that people are not deficient in other nutrients before assuming the prob is carbs themselves. Maybe the prob for some people is actually related to other nutrients that often co occur with carbs.Kinda goes with the 'islands of safety idea.' It might be fine to go very low carb as long as certain other criteria are met at the same time, but since we don't know the criteria, then it will be somewhat left up to chance if your lifestyle will meet those criteria or not.

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    11986 · June 03, 2011 at 1:17 PM

    Just as a very late note to your idea of "illadaptation" (I like it), Stephen Phinney talks about ketoadaptation in one of his papers, and says it can take up to six weeks for some people, and the process is only made longer if carbs are continually added back in; in other words, if ketosis isn't steadily maintained during the adaptation period. I'm not saying this is true in every case, but I sure do see it a lot among folks who try to go VLC or ZC. And Stefansson's account anecdotally supports the "go big or go home" idea.

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    7324 · November 11, 2010 at 1:02 AM

    I am looking forward to the rest of the series. Until they make their case, it's kinda hard to judge it. The book did include some information on this, but not a ton. I would definitely recommend the book though, it is the best nutrition book I have read so far.

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    9647 · November 11, 2010 at 5:37 PM

    @Ikco, I'm kind of wondering if people like the book a lot because it explains the physiology of nutrition very clearly. Judging by some of the comments on Amazon, that might be the case. I'm thinking about buying it -- but then again I have a bad book-buying habit.

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    2399 · November 11, 2010 at 1:39 PM

    Better than Paleo Solution and Blueprint ? Why ? Thanks :)

    62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3
    20787 · November 11, 2010 at 5:33 AM

    Doesn't sound like they really have a case but more are just hypothesizing and data gathering. Nothing wrong with that specifically.

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    2399 · November 12, 2010 at 9:49 AM

    Paul: Yeah :D I'm a book-buying addict too.

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    1085 · November 11, 2010 at 2:23 AM

    I am currently reading the book. So far I agree with mari, it is one of the best nutrition books I have read.

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    7324 · November 11, 2010 at 10:41 PM

    lkco, it explains everything out well, with actual references! And if I had to chose a book to give to my doctor or someone I really wanted to convince, I think it would do a better job than the other two.

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    4163 · November 21, 2010 at 11:53 AM

    +1 on the book recommendation, it really is excellent, so technical but very easy to understand.. I'm actually doing much better on 100g of 'safe' carbs a day than I was on ketogenic, which seemed to worsen my depression.

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    820 · November 11, 2010 at 5:28 PM

    This is a fair question. Loren Cordain notes (as does the article) the extreme rarity of low-carb diets among hunter gatherer peoples studied, the Inuit being the most noted exception. While it is telling that there are humans who can live on very low carbohydrates we can't dismiss new observations about how quickly evolution can occur. There are some who advocate eating no less than 400 calories in the form of carbohydrates in the long term (sorry, I can't find the reference). Even so, Cordain shows that most studied hunter gatherers get around 50% of their calories from carbohydrates of various forms.

    Of course, these are hunter gatherers being studied in the 20th Century and not pristine cultures. Who knows how they ate before the clash of empires destroyed lands and monopolized resources. Its hard to speculate on exact numbers. What is easier to observe is that we definitely ate more fat than the current Federal recommendations and we didn't eat any HFCS or transfats. As Dr. Lustig notes the problem may just be overconsumption of fructose.

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    9647 · November 16, 2010 at 6:17 AM

    Thanks Andrew. I'm looking forward to our continued conversation about this. I guess I'll get it started with a few thoughts.

    This was the "oh, there it is" moment for me:

    Some micronutrients are required for mucin production ??? notably vitamin D. [7, 8] Poland is fairly far north, and many of the Optimal Dieters could have been low in vitamin D.

    Considering some of the explanations we were able to make with the China Study diet and a number of other places where vitamin D pops up, I think this is very important. Note that Eva said something like this already, below: "I also think that we should first make sure that people are not deficient in other nutrients before assuming the prob is carbs themselves. Maybe the prob for some people is actually related to other nutrients that often co occur with carbs." Good call, Eva. We should also give some credit to the Perfect Health Diet folks for their skepticism. By the way they make a similar point about iodine.

    Another important thing I think is that they advocate getting at least 30% of your calories (well, they say 600 calories for a 2,000 calorie diet) from protein + carbohydrate. The idea is that even if you don't have any glucose (i.e., if you do it 600 protein calories and 0 carbohydrate calories) then you'll still have enough protein for manufacturing ketones and glycogen to keep everything running. But at the end of the article, after having talked about cancer risks, they write:

    It???s plausible that a zero-carb diet that included at least 600 calories per day protein for gluconeogenesis would not elevate gastrointestinal cancer risks as much as the Optimal Diet. But why be the guinea pig who tests this idea? Your body needs some glucose, and it???s surely less stressful on the body to supply some glucose, rather than forcing the body to manufacture glucose from protein.

    But isn't that really the million-dollar question? Just how "stressful" is it for the body to manufacture glucose from protein?

    Anyhow, all this aside, I have to say there is something intuitively appealing about paying attention to your body to see if you have dry eyes or mouth. I've felt this before, and I know it goes away with a little carbohydrate. Although in my case it really is just a little -- much less than they are talking about. OK, looking forward to other people's ideas.

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    20787 · November 21, 2010 at 4:39 AM

    Interesting. I have never felt thirsty on low carb. Just the reverse actually. The more carb I eat, the thirstier I get. I am sometimes amazed at my apparent lack of thirst or need for water when not eating carbs. Just goes to show how different one person is from the next.

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    2581 · November 11, 2010 at 8:45 PM

    The Inuit are not zero carb people. Even putting aside their consumption of berries and sea vegetables, the staples of their diet (raw organs) have small amounts of carbs and are more nutritious in certain vitamins like Vitamin C. They don't eat a lot of muscle meat like many of these zero carbers do. Their whole diet is built around approximating a nutritious human diet given what they have in a harsh cold climate. They've done the best they could to avoid deficiency diseases like scurvy using animal sources. They eat lots of fat only because the animals that are common there have lots of fat naturally, and it helps to balance out protein in the absence of carbs.

    In the absence of supplementation, a truly zero carb diet will lead to scurvy and perhaps other deficiencies. Low carb dieters do not even have to eat fruit to get Vitamin C, in fact parsley is a good source but it has a small amount of carbs. But if you are trying to avoid all carbs you are limiting what you can eat even from the animal.

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    7821 · November 16, 2010 at 11:14 AM

    Everyone eating "zero carb" right now doesn't have scurvy, including those people who have been eating cooked muscle meat only for years. Your assertion is thus falsified.

    3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
    11986 · June 03, 2011 at 1:31 PM

    Another late note: Stancel, the term "zero-carb" is a convenient handle. It doesn't always mean the ZCer is looking to avoid any and all carbohydrate. Usually it denotes eating from all-animal sources, including organs and dairy and eggs, all of which contain trace (and sometimes more) carbs. Although, as pfw notes, there are folks who've eaten nothing but muscle meat for years and they're apparently fine.

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    602 · November 11, 2010 at 2:17 AM

    Didn't I read that the brain can thrive in ketosis? I believe that some parts have to have carbs but we get those from fruits and veggies.

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    602 · November 11, 2010 at 11:24 AM

    Yes glucose if you want to be specific.

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    18671 · November 11, 2010 at 2:00 PM

    You don't even need the fruits and veggies. On a zero carb diet, you body makes the glucose it needs via gluconeogenesis out of protein.

    07c5607b5639012aa228f0734b8b9160
    40 · November 11, 2010 at 5:19 AM

    I guess you meant glucose.

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