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Which Grains and Legumes to Introduce to a Paleo/Vegan

by (72)
Updated October 19, 2014 at 3:48 AM
Created July 30, 2012 at 2:47 AM

This is a follow-up to my last question http://paleohacks.com/questions/138905/recommended-a-vegan-diet-because-of-high-oxalate-levels#axzz224KSnwbr. I was instructed to put my paleo son on a vegan diet due to a very rare genetic disease (Primary Hyperoxaluria Type III). So I need help. I need to take my son off all animal products (milk and butter excepted) and introduce grains and legumes to his diet (I'm afraid he won't thrive otherwise). But which ones?

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3391 · July 31, 2012 at 10:19 PM

Gayle: I'm unaware of any master list of hydroxyproline content, so I use the USDA's nutrition database. Go to nutritiondata.self.com, find the page for the food you want, make sure to click the dropdown in the upper left to choose a 100g serving size, and then click the "Protein and Amino Acids" tab to see a list of every amino acid in the food. Hydroxyproline is the last entry in that list. Note that a ~ can mean there is none OR they didn't test for it, so I wouldn't trust a ~ to mean zero. Use common sense: all muscle and connective tissue of any animal contains collagen. Hope this helps!

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3391 · July 31, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Jamie, Gayle: Fish muscle has collagen in it, just like land animal muscle, and fish collagen has hydroxyproline just like land animal collagen does, so I wouldn't recommend fish or shellfish. (Note that the USDA database claims that some fish meats don't have hydroxyproline in them, which doesn't make sense.) I wouldn't eat fish roe, either, as the outside membrane of the egg is made of collagen AFAIK.

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3391 · July 31, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Gayle: I'm unaware of any master list of hydroxyproline content, so I use the USDA's nutrition database. Go to nutritiondata.self.com, find the page for the food you want, make sure to click the dropdown in the upper left to choose a 100g serving size, and then click the "Protein and Amino Acids" tab to see a list of every amino acid in the food. Hydroxyproline is the last entry in that list, and a ~ means there's no detectable amount. (Ignore all the other junk they add, like the "Inflammation Index".) I hope this helps you and your son!

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72 · July 31, 2012 at 1:30 AM

wow! thanks for that! is there anywhere online with a list of the hydroxyproline content in various food? i'd like to print it and take it to the specialist...

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72 · July 31, 2012 at 1:20 AM

thanks for that! unfortunately, my son's only allowed milk and butter atm.

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6229 · July 30, 2012 at 9:11 PM

Find a functional medicine doc on Paleo Physicians Network http://paleophysiciansnetwork.com/

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12677 · July 30, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Good answer, quite similar to the one I gave on his last question, but I wasn't aware eggs were free of hydroxyproline. Looking back it would seem I misread a study that said the *shell* and not the egg itself had HP. Well that's great news.

D58c513cccb6e80e7b9d5ac93eaeec7b
3221 · July 30, 2012 at 3:02 PM

Is Whey protein digestible by your child? If so, there are very good quality choices, e.g. http://primalblueprint.com/products/Primal-Fuel-%252d-AUTOSHIP%2A.html

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11048 · July 30, 2012 at 2:59 PM

There are several people on here that thrive on a vegetarian form of Paleo, Gayle. Type "vegetarian" into the search bar.

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997 · July 30, 2012 at 1:07 PM

Seconding Nourishing Traditions recommendation. I soak gluten-free grain and seed flours for some baking for my celiac family and the improvement in digestibility and texture is really significant.

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41422 · July 30, 2012 at 11:43 AM

If you're going to ask for and then ignore crowdsourced advice, then at least heed our suggestions to get other medical opinions from specialists that haven't treated and dealt with this disorder.

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41422 · July 30, 2012 at 11:42 AM

@Gayle, I have to wonder why you're asking the questions are you and yet proving to be extremely resistant to the wealth of information being shared with you.

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5381 · July 30, 2012 at 11:41 AM

I wonder about shellfish ...do they have hydroproline?

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5381 · July 30, 2012 at 11:40 AM

Good answer. Eggs, butter, milk, liver and cheese and your not missing out on good nutrition or energy sources...

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1085 · July 30, 2012 at 9:56 AM

The diagnosis my be correct but I too would get a second opinion on the diet you have been instructed to feed your child.

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72 · July 30, 2012 at 6:58 AM

Diagnosis is correct as all of our DNA has been sequenced and the mutated gene found.

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72 · July 30, 2012 at 6:40 AM

thank you! i'll have a look at that book. i was just told he can have egg yolk in occasionally.

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 6:38 AM

i haven't introduced grains or legumes to my son yet, but - having to remove all animal products from his diet (sans milk and butter) - i do not think he will thrive well. i don't know what else to do besides introduce grains and legumes.

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 6:36 AM

thanks! my son was on a low oxalate diet for 6 months and that did not lower his oxalate levels. so, that's why we were recommended a different tactic. he is the only person (as far as i know) in australasia to have this and is the guinea pig.

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1670 · July 30, 2012 at 4:45 AM

Even the worst diseases thrive on a whole foods diet. Maybe email one of the professionals like Paul Jaminet (perfect health diet) for help. If not, go to a "paleo" doc in your area. They are in a website online. Get a second opinion and research your sons disease online. People can't thrive on vegan diets, let alone a sick one.

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3501 · July 30, 2012 at 4:05 AM

Have you gotten any second third opinions yet? Whatever you do, I would suggest for sure NO GLUTEN grains and NO PROCESSED foods. Best of luck, I hope your little gets better soon.

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 3:34 AM

I had another question "Recommended a Vegan Diet Because of High Oxalate Levels". I just don't know how to link that question to my new one. My son's condition is called Primary Hyperoxaluria Type III. Our whole family has been eating paleo for awhile now, but we've been told to put our son on a vegan diet...

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 3:33 AM

I had another question "Recommended a Vegan Diet Because of High Oxalate Levels". I just don't know how to link them. My son's condition is called Primary Hyperoxaluria Type III. Our whole family has been eating paleo for awhile now, but we've been told to put our son on a vegan diet...

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3391 · July 30, 2012 at 8:36 AM

Your doctors are giving you partially incorrect information.

The theory is that people with primary Hyperoxaluria Type III, like your son, have a problem metabolizing the non-protein amino acid hydroxyproline. This is probably true. However, the idea that it is therefore necessary or beneficial to go vegan is not true.

The reason is simple: not all animal products contain significant amounts of hydroxyproline! Collagen (e.g. connective tissue, of which skin and tendons are made) is very high in hydroxyproline, but few other animal proteins contain any significant amount.

For instance, eggs don't contain hydroxyproline, so there is absolutely no reason for your son to avoid eating them. Milk and cheese don't contain any, either. (At least not in any detectable amount.) And butter won't, either, since it's just milkfat and has no protein anyway.

Unfortunately, muscle meat does contain some hydroxyproline (though not much...anywhere from 0.04% to 0.07% by weight), so you should still probably avoid that. However, animal fat is still fine...

...and liver, not being a muscle, is extremely low in hydroxyproline! It has only 46 mg HYP per 100 grams, which is less than a "low-oxalate" food like apples has oxalate!

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3469/2

Conclusion: there is absolutely no reason for you to feed your son a vegan diet of grains! You'll have to avoid muscle meat, but you can still feed him the best sources of animal nutrition: pastured eggs and butter, and beef liver. (And cheese for a treat.)

JS

00c8eb3f6e6a1884216044ca29cf868a
3391 · July 31, 2012 at 10:19 PM

Gayle: I'm unaware of any master list of hydroxyproline content, so I use the USDA's nutrition database. Go to nutritiondata.self.com, find the page for the food you want, make sure to click the dropdown in the upper left to choose a 100g serving size, and then click the "Protein and Amino Acids" tab to see a list of every amino acid in the food. Hydroxyproline is the last entry in that list. Note that a ~ can mean there is none OR they didn't test for it, so I wouldn't trust a ~ to mean zero. Use common sense: all muscle and connective tissue of any animal contains collagen. Hope this helps!

00c8eb3f6e6a1884216044ca29cf868a
3391 · July 31, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Jamie, Gayle: Fish muscle has collagen in it, just like land animal muscle, and fish collagen has hydroxyproline just like land animal collagen does, so I wouldn't recommend fish or shellfish. (Note that the USDA database claims that some fish meats don't have hydroxyproline in them, which doesn't make sense.) I wouldn't eat fish roe, either, as the outside membrane of the egg is made of collagen AFAIK.

00c8eb3f6e6a1884216044ca29cf868a
3391 · July 31, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Gayle: I'm unaware of any master list of hydroxyproline content, so I use the USDA's nutrition database. Go to nutritiondata.self.com, find the page for the food you want, make sure to click the dropdown in the upper left to choose a 100g serving size, and then click the "Protein and Amino Acids" tab to see a list of every amino acid in the food. Hydroxyproline is the last entry in that list, and a ~ means there's no detectable amount. (Ignore all the other junk they add, like the "Inflammation Index".) I hope this helps you and your son!

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 31, 2012 at 1:30 AM

wow! thanks for that! is there anywhere online with a list of the hydroxyproline content in various food? i'd like to print it and take it to the specialist...

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3
12677 · July 30, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Good answer, quite similar to the one I gave on his last question, but I wasn't aware eggs were free of hydroxyproline. Looking back it would seem I misread a study that said the *shell* and not the egg itself had HP. Well that's great news.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5
5381 · July 30, 2012 at 11:41 AM

I wonder about shellfish ...do they have hydroproline?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5
5381 · July 30, 2012 at 11:40 AM

Good answer. Eggs, butter, milk, liver and cheese and your not missing out on good nutrition or energy sources...

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4632 · July 30, 2012 at 4:12 AM

I would go with no gluten, soak all nuts and legumes (or if you have the budget, you can buy pre-soaked, sprouted and dehydrated flours, like at the Blue Mountain Organics website). I would buy Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions book. She has a lot of info on the proper preparation of grains, since that is what you have to work with. I know others have told you to get a second opinion, which I would recommend as well, but right now, I understand that you just need to feed your child.

Can he even have eggs? I am glad he can have butter at least. Wishing you and your son the best.

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997 · July 30, 2012 at 1:07 PM

Seconding Nourishing Traditions recommendation. I soak gluten-free grain and seed flours for some baking for my celiac family and the improvement in digestibility and texture is really significant.

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 6:40 AM

thank you! i'll have a look at that book. i was just told he can have egg yolk in occasionally.

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843 · July 30, 2012 at 4:35 AM

http://www.ohf.org/treatment.html

The recommendation is to reduce oxalates in diet.

http://www.georgetownuniversityhospital.org/documents/Urology/Food_Souces_Oxalate.pdf

The paper gives a list of all foods that contain a high amount of oxalates.

It would be prudent to reduce these food items.

All of these are vegetarian food items. Yet your doctor quite inexplicably avoids to take a vegan diet. I would think you should run away from that moron. Diet advice should not be done due to ideology.

I would think a lower carb paleo diet would be the best. The biggest problem in dealing with oxalates is Vitamin C. Because VitC converts to oxalates :-(.

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 6:36 AM

thanks! my son was on a low oxalate diet for 6 months and that did not lower his oxalate levels. so, that's why we were recommended a different tactic. he is the only person (as far as i know) in australasia to have this and is the guinea pig.

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12677 · July 30, 2012 at 6:53 PM

For grains, I think soaked or fermented oats are pretty good. Wild rice is decent. Properly prepared millet and amaranth are not bad either. Yeah, white rice is fine, but it has almost no nutrients except carbs so it shouldn't be a common thing. I still prefer things like potatoes and fruit over grains.

As far as legumes, I think chickpeas/garbonzos and green beans are some of the better ones. If properly prepared, I think lentils can be worthwhile (for more on preparation see this link). I don't really like peanuts, though they're not a terrible thing to eat. I'm less of a fan of soybeans, they're worth avoiding. In general, I'd recommend legumes over grains for nutrition, but all legumes should probably be prepared in some way. Soaking and cooking at least.

Is your son allowed all dairy? If you're getting a lot of protein from legumes, you'll often end up short on methionine, so I'd look for sources of that (a good one is diary protein).

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72 · July 31, 2012 at 1:20 AM

thanks for that! unfortunately, my son's only allowed milk and butter atm.

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15385 · July 30, 2012 at 3:04 AM

I think you might be asking this question in the wrong place. Those on the Paleo diet pretty much avoid all grains and legumes -- as I have for about 18 months. They both cause me lots of problems including digestive distress, systemic inflammation, huge peaks and valleys in energy, sore muscles and joints, poor sleep and mood, etc. My answer to your question about which ones to introduce would be "none".

Paleo and vegan diets also differ in how much animal protein and fat they recommend (a lot and none, respectively). I don't think you're going to get anyone here giving advice about a vegan diet.

If you gave more background on your son's condition and what other doctors or health practitioners recommended, you might get a paleo perspective on his situation. Many "genetic" "diseases" have been completely cured via paleo diet.

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3501 · July 30, 2012 at 4:05 AM

Have you gotten any second third opinions yet? Whatever you do, I would suggest for sure NO GLUTEN grains and NO PROCESSED foods. Best of luck, I hope your little gets better soon.

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 3:34 AM

I had another question "Recommended a Vegan Diet Because of High Oxalate Levels". I just don't know how to link that question to my new one. My son's condition is called Primary Hyperoxaluria Type III. Our whole family has been eating paleo for awhile now, but we've been told to put our son on a vegan diet...

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 3:33 AM

I had another question "Recommended a Vegan Diet Because of High Oxalate Levels". I just don't know how to link them. My son's condition is called Primary Hyperoxaluria Type III. Our whole family has been eating paleo for awhile now, but we've been told to put our son on a vegan diet...

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357 · September 05, 2012 at 11:06 AM

I myself have done a vegetarian form of the lifestyle, and am just now adding meat. I think while difficult it is totally possible to eat a vegetarian form of the diet simply including plenty of nuts and eggs. The vegetarian form of the diet has greatly improved my arthritis and is worth a shot.

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3043 · July 30, 2012 at 1:07 PM

So one MD suggest your son go vegan and you hop on the bandwagon. MDs have less than 10 hours in the area of nutrition at that is from the perspective of the USDA food plan. Please do not risk it. What issues are you experiencing with your son specifically? I went vegan and it nearly killed me. Our bodies need b12 and all the protein and nutrition from whole animal sources. Grains and legumes provide nothing unless they are enriched with things because they are devoid of nutrients. Your best bet is to do a gaps or pure paleo diet. No dairy whatsoever. Get him on the ketogenic diet and it will cure all health issues. There are many sources of reputable information on how to follow it, maintaing a very high fat diet. Don't ever put blindfaith into mainstream medicine.

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3221 · July 30, 2012 at 6:28 AM

No grains and No legumes. If you are asking us, it means you trust the Paleo/Primal lifestyle. It makes no sense you asking this question here

D58c513cccb6e80e7b9d5ac93eaeec7b
3221 · July 30, 2012 at 3:02 PM

Is Whey protein digestible by your child? If so, there are very good quality choices, e.g. http://primalblueprint.com/products/Primal-Fuel-%252d-AUTOSHIP%2A.html

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11048 · July 30, 2012 at 2:59 PM

There are several people on here that thrive on a vegetarian form of Paleo, Gayle. Type "vegetarian" into the search bar.

D01e44fabc04e69a92e65e3179d81e06
72 · July 30, 2012 at 6:38 AM

i haven't introduced grains or legumes to my son yet, but - having to remove all animal products from his diet (sans milk and butter) - i do not think he will thrive well. i don't know what else to do besides introduce grains and legumes.

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