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Paleo Membership sites? Kruse up to $248/mo, DeVany $30/yr, etc

by (455)
Updated about 18 hours ago
Created March 31, 2012 at 6:12 AM

When Art DeVany's website started charging, I jumped ship (even though Art was one of my earliest influences). What do you think of paleo membership sites in general, with respect to benefit and cost, in comparison to the abundant free sites?

Now I see that Jack Kruse is charging, with a tiered plans ranging from "Kruse Karnivore" to "Kruse Kruisers", ranging up to $248 per month. Is anybody going to join from here? And no, I'm not making those names up. And yes, I'm aware that most neurosurgeons make close to a cool million a year already. Good old Quilt, where did his love for free information go?

What strikes me as interesting is this: Jack appeared to have used paleohacks to gain a foothold into the paleosphere, and after transferring his audience to MDA and his blog, now regularly ridicules paleohacks because people have been critical of his citations, logic, etc. He has also ridiculed almost all the moderators on this site at least once, along with anyone who questions his ideas.

Also, he has said about a hundred times that he doesn't charge or have ads, and has implied that this nobility was rare in the paleosphere. These aren't even the best quotes, but they'll do for now.

"See Patrik this is where you are wrong.......there is no duty i have to you or anyone else. That perception is yours and the other lackies you have here...Here on the net I am not your doctor or anyone elses. You are not paying me and I dont give you advice. I give ideas and thoughts without a doctor patient relationship. There is a big difference."

"Im not selling my cure for obesity.....im open sourcing it."

So let's talk costs and benefits of paying for paleo info in general. And this doesn't mean paying someone like Chris Kresser for a visit or consultation. This means membership sites. Personally, I don't get it. Is this like practicing medicine over the internet, which has been decried by Kurt Harris and Emily Deans?

Paleo is awesome because the information is free from hundreds of awesome researchers. I mean, you've got Guyenet, Harris, Masterjohn writing some damn clear information to get ideas flowing. Am I missing something? I'm actually afraid that someone first intro to paleo might be through Kruse and his ummm...unorthodox ideas and Kruse Klub Karnivores membership site.

4/9/12 EDIT: It appears that Quilt has quite the entrepreneurial spirit! As Paula mentions above, he's endorsing Bulletproof coffee. He also seems to have struck a deal with Nutiva coconut oil and manna. He's mentioned two books he has in the works, as well as a revised cookbook. He's developing his own compression shirts for people to wear when they're freezing their nuts off . . . err, practicing cold thermogenesis. And he's offering a new "Consultation Package" (Konsultation Package?) for $299 for the first month and $149 for each subsequent month. Oh, and I almost forgot that he's soliciting suggestions for t-shirt ideas (e.g., "If you don't know Optimal, you don't know Jack!") from members of his forum. It's been a busy few weeks for the irrepressible Dr. Kruse. Between his full-time neurosurgery practice, maintenance of his blog and Facebook pages, and daily ice baths, you'd think he wouldn't have time for much else. I'm interested to hear from anyone who has signed up as a paid subscriber on Quilt's site. Worth the money?

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6087 · May 03, 2012 at 10:11 PM

@Melissa To be fair, I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to call someone a Hunt Gather Bitch either.

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28 · April 27, 2012 at 6:13 PM

Yes, My initial thought is wrong and you are right it is indeed $248. Wow, takes a lot of earning.

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78422 · April 16, 2012 at 3:32 PM

I see what you did there....

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6229 · April 11, 2012 at 3:39 PM

All excellent points made thoughtfully ...

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455 · April 09, 2012 at 4:02 AM

It appears that Quilt has quite an entrepreneurial spirit! As Paula says above, he's endorsing Bulletproof coffee. He also seems to have struck a deal with Nutiva. He's mentioned two books he has in the works, as well as a revised cookbook. He's developing his own compression shirts for people to wear when they're freezing their nuts off . . . err, practicing cold thermogenesis. And he's offering a new "Consultation Package" (Konsultation Package?) for $299 for the first mo. and $149 for each subsequent mo. It's been a busy few weeks for the irrepressible Dr. Kruse.

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610 · April 07, 2012 at 1:34 PM

He is also offering consults now. $299 first month 1hr consult, follow up months, 30 mins $149.

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8979 · April 07, 2012 at 4:33 AM

Hunt gather Bitch, thems verbs. It wasn't hunt gather, bitch. You outed yourself

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66 · April 03, 2012 at 6:36 PM

A little late, but I just came across the Bulletproof Exec/Bulletproof coffee and testimonials: http://www.bulletproofexec.com/coffee/ just a bit down the page: “This coffee rocks! I’m having my optimal coffee in the hot tub made with Bulletproof Coffee beans Dave! Rocking good!” - Jack Kruse, neurosurgeon Doctor! What am I supposed to do!? I'm so confused!

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78422 · April 02, 2012 at 9:50 PM

Is he selling white salmon too?

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3924 · April 02, 2012 at 4:58 PM

There's nothing wrong with charging for a service you are offering. (This is what we do when we have jobs!) If people want your service and can buy it, they will. If not, they will find something else that fits their needs and budget. Likewise, if you want a service and it's in your budget, buy it. Otherwise don't. It's Economics 101, not philosophy or ethics.

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60 · April 02, 2012 at 12:48 PM

Not a Doctor - might you not pop over there and explain to these people what they are doing to themselves, if you have such conviction and get so upset. Wouldn't that be the RIGHT thing to do? Yes, personal responsibility, and you have no obligation to the these desearate folks, and all that. But if you have compassion, you might be trying to correct the wrongs! IMO :)

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78422 · April 02, 2012 at 3:00 AM

@Nance - I see a difference. Harris is civil until provoked. Kruse comes across as a jumped-up Redneck. Now it's possible if I met him in person we'd be best mates, but I doubt it. Just the way he writes, who he attacks, his interviews, I really tried but I can't take him seriously.

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78422 · April 02, 2012 at 2:48 AM

@David What do you think this is? Heaven? LOL

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8979 · April 02, 2012 at 2:05 AM

+1.....................

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8879 · April 02, 2012 at 12:16 AM

@Beth -- I thought immediately of you when I heard him say that. Then I thought about so many others losing 10 lbs/month. Not to mention his personal "maven" Jimmy who lost 170 lbs in 9 mos and 180 lbs in 12.

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20353 · April 01, 2012 at 10:20 PM

I have no problem with buying something online or having adds on the website.

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15003 · April 01, 2012 at 6:11 PM

Thanks for the link Korion. He's talking about 130 lbs in 11 months as requiring something radical ... in his case, hours of CT. Clearly being beat up by Bob or Jillian on the Biggest Loser ranch can work too. What do I know? I lost 125 lbs in 14 months without ice baths or all-day exercise. Hmm.

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839 · April 01, 2012 at 5:11 PM

I think there's a lot of "name calling" on both sides actually, and that's the part that bothers me... When a question on membership sites turns into a bash-fest because one group doesn't like the ideas of another, I would call that off topic and not helpful... Start another question on the benefits (or lack there of) of Cold Thermogenisis (Leptin RX, etc.) if you want to save people from the "pseudoscientific buffoon"...

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5043 · April 01, 2012 at 4:53 PM

actually this site is very civil compared to some forums I've lurked on. there's one for english-speaking expats in Switzerland that is just horrific.

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0 · April 01, 2012 at 3:56 PM

This comment just got me to register on this site.

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0 · April 01, 2012 at 3:55 PM

This comment just got me to register in this site.

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6229 · April 01, 2012 at 3:18 PM

Then you probably shouldn't buy anything online. Websites when they get big enough need advertising revenue and/or product selling. It takes time and/or money to maintain a website. When you shop on Amazon, or whatever large website you buy from you think it is free??!! Amazon has website costs too - you don't see the hidden costs because you're paying for it when you buy products from them.

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6229 · April 01, 2012 at 3:15 PM

Then you probably shouldn't buy anything online. Websites when they get big enough need advertising revenue and/or product selling. It takes time and/or money to maintain a website. When you shop on Amazon, or whatever large website you buy from is free? Amazon has website costs too - you don't see the hidden costs because you're paying for it when you buy products from them.

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1416 · April 01, 2012 at 3:13 PM

Well this makes no sense either.

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1416 · April 01, 2012 at 3:09 PM

It's a valid point, Evelyn. "Wait a minute, you want us to *pay* for this Kool-Aid, Mr. Jones?"

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8933 · April 01, 2012 at 2:32 PM

Can't believe Kruse didn't immediately knew who you are, Kamal! For anyone interested it's http://www.blogtalkradio.com/undergroundwellness/2012/03/09/dr-jack-kruse and Kamal tunes in around 73:00

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6082 · April 01, 2012 at 2:08 PM

The only time I've seen him speak in person was when he lobbed a vaguely condescending insult at Chris Masterjohn at AHS 2011. Prefacing a rebuttal to a doctoral candidate with, "Well, I AM a doctor, so..." is pretty lame.

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6082 · April 01, 2012 at 2:06 PM

I love how you put paying rent and bills at the bottom of the list. Adventurer's spirit.

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15003 · April 01, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Hopefully that is not factor X ... stress your immune system and see if you sink or swim!

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20519 · April 01, 2012 at 1:30 PM

Okokok.. on each monetary breakdown there is one thing thing I haven't done. Yet. @Matthew - NO.

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1136 · April 01, 2012 at 11:35 AM

One more thing… MRSA on the skin is one thing. MRSA in the blood is quite another thing altogether. Same with E coli - in the gut it is mostly harmless unless you get the wrong strain. But in the kidneys or the blood it is bad news. "Injecting" these bugs anywhere, particularly around open wounds, is a disaster waiting to happen.

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610 · April 01, 2012 at 10:46 AM

Jaminet thinks the surgery that Kruse had was liposuction.

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2861 · April 01, 2012 at 4:32 AM

Nance, the thing is that I have seen the opposite. In Kansas and Texas they have come close on various occasions to removing all mention of dinosaurs from science textbooks (if the Earth is only 6000 years old then dinosaurs are nothing but mythology). I don’t think it is because people are ridiculing young Earth creationism and giving it "drama"; I think it is because people inclined to know this stuff (science guys) are not speaking out loudly enough.

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37187 · April 01, 2012 at 3:39 AM

@Paleo2.0 you may be correct, but another possibility is that positions/recommendations that are ignored shrivel and die. Drama, on the other hand, ensures lots of attention and attracts people to see what the fuss is about.

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2861 · April 01, 2012 at 3:29 AM

Kruse is a pseudoscientific buffoon. His comments on PH have mostly been buffoonery. I just don’t understand why every buffoon scientific theory he spits out should be subject to courteous, reasoned debate, especially when he himself fails to do this. Of the dozens of his comments that I have seen that are blatantly false, I have never seen him say “oops, my bad.” He never retracts his inane, blatantly false, pseudoscientific comments. If you want to spend your time courteously giving equal standing to buffoonery, then more power to you, but some people think we would still be in the Dark Ages

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15003 · April 01, 2012 at 2:23 AM

Kruse streamed his talk himself on ustream. I watched both the presentation and viewed the Twitter stream. I suspect he had a better presentation and reception at paleofx, as I don't think it is a good thing that "I think we're listening to the origin story of a super-villain" was tweeted and RT'd several times by folks there!

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1136 · April 01, 2012 at 1:56 AM

Um, well if you ever turn up positive for MRSA in the hospital via noseswab you get put on contact precautions in that hospital forever more. Sure it might not be a concern now, but what if you get lymphoma in the future and need your immune system shut down? He was probably already a carrier, though, having spent so much time in the hospital. BUT STILL.

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455 · April 01, 2012 at 1:55 AM

Dylan, it's my understanding that certain strains of MRSA respond to some antibiotics. And that healthy people can come down with MRSA infections as well. My own father picked up a serious MRSA infection at the hospital he worked at, and was not allowed back at work until it cleared up . . . which makes me wonder, how soon after his surgery did Dr. Kruse return to doing neurosugery? It would make me kind of nervous to think that my doctor was purposely injecting himself with MRSA and then operating on me.

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37187 · April 01, 2012 at 1:48 AM

Kamal, Evelyn, YES! I may have to work to follow some of science but the humor makes it all worthwhile because I never know when the next chuckle-generator will pop up.

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1402 · April 01, 2012 at 1:37 AM

I meant to say infection in there, that's the key word. It's like injecting E. Coli into yourself... E. Coli is generally harmless, it's just certain strains and *infections* that give it a scary name

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1402 · April 01, 2012 at 1:35 AM

MRSA is really only a concern for the immune compromised. It's an antibiotic resistant strain of a fairly common bacteria. Staph that isn't MRSA can be treated with an antibiotic while MRSA cannot. It's really just sensationalism and I guess he knew that a bunch of people would be like "MRSA!??"

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8979 · April 01, 2012 at 1:26 AM

Nobody called you anything.

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 1:19 AM

I don't know - all will be revealed...I guess. His poor wife.

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56616 · April 01, 2012 at 1:12 AM

Is there a medicine named MRSA? Or is he serious about injecting THE MRSA????

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1136 · April 01, 2012 at 1:03 AM

I was flagged as offensive? Do I get a badge for that?

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:57 AM

#tedxnashville or http://forum.jackkruse.com/showthread.php?611-Dr-Kruse-TedX-talk-to-be-streamed-between-4-amp-5pm-today-Sat-Mar-31

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:51 AM

Honestly I cannot understand why he missed out on naming it "Factor K" since there would be less overlap with Weston Price's X Factor. He probably didn't even know anything about X Factor when he started biohacking though, since he claims to have known nothing about "Wil Hof" (his spelin)

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24523 · April 01, 2012 at 12:38 AM

What is factor X? I must know, in order to quench my insatiable thirst for all things factor-related.

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:36 AM

*Some* of us watched streaming. It won't be posted for a month I think.

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24523 · April 01, 2012 at 12:34 AM

And I you, Evelyn. Biology and humor are a potent mix in your blog posts.

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56616 · April 01, 2012 at 12:31 AM

really? is his TED talk up yet?

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2890 · April 01, 2012 at 12:06 AM

I can claim bullshit too. I injected myself with ebola and survived. Whoopdy do.

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364 · April 01, 2012 at 12:05 AM

If he's charging, he really should have some concrete medical research to back up his claims. His medical specialty isn't in the area he's blabbing about, so what exactly is he charging for besides his time?

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2890 · April 01, 2012 at 12:04 AM

I don't understand how anyone can believe a neurosurgeon knows the secrets of quantum neurochemistry. Surgeons know how to cut, that's it. Doesn't he do mostly spine work anyway?

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:02 AM

But, I think they do train surgeons to avoid MRSA and stuff. He claimed at his TED talk to injecting himself with it during his last "epic biohack" right before some sort of surgery (which was without anesthesia and used cold only) to prove that CT works. I *guess* the unanesthetized surgery alone would have proven a point, but he really hit it out of the park with the highly contagious bacteria. Hope his surgeon knew. Hope anyone who shakes his hand knows too!

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2890 · April 01, 2012 at 12:01 AM

The first problem is there's nothing relevant to cite. If there is a method to his madness it's probably derived from C. Elegans studies and completely useless for humans. The second problem is he's going to pocket the money.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 11:50 PM

I am not a Kruse Kid and I didn't call names--I protested the lack of reason and the negative tone. Calling him the PT Barnum of paleo and the original paleo hack is an expression of valid concern? Just because I don't attack him I must be a follower? Sorry, just as correlation is not causation, failure to mock/insult is not loyalty or belief. For me, it's common courtesy.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 11:14 PM

I am not a Kruse Kid and I didn't call names--I protested the lack of reason and the negative tone. Calling him the PT Barnum of paleo and the original paleo hack is an expression of valid concern? Just because I don't attack him I must be a follower? Sorry, just as correlation is not causation, failure to mock/insult is not loyalty or belief. For me, it's common decency.

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 10:52 PM

But see that's the problem Nance. People see his detractors as playing "high school" when in fact they have very valid concerns. The Kruse Kids just call names instead of hearing the concerns and having a dialogue about the issues. Jack's critics are criticizing not because they hate him but because they love the paleo community and see what he is doing to it as a negative. This "if you don't like it don't listen" stuff is just crap. We should be able to talk about it. We are required to talk about it. Sorry but I am just sick to death of the patronizing crap coming from Kruse Kamp.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 10:38 PM

Good point! Now, to keep up with Kamal you need to add a comment about your answer then type another comment about the first. :-))

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1402 · March 31, 2012 at 10:37 PM

There might be a little less material if he got an editor to do all of those things for him...

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10044 · March 31, 2012 at 10:10 PM

+1 for Oliver on Brady Bunch reference!

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1012 · March 31, 2012 at 9:21 PM

(*) with purchase of second Paleo of equal or greater value.

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8239 · March 31, 2012 at 9:07 PM

I get your point re people who offer advice that seem be nutty and then the advice gets followed. Especially advice givers who did enough education to be allowed to put MD after their name. Still, isn't it up to each of us to guard our own boundaries carefully re information absorption? I used to buy all kinds of unverified ideas, on face value, like vegetarianism as the supposed optimal state for humans. Because I read a lot about health, I continue to encounter claims that cause me to be skeptical — yet this doesn't stop me from examining them in the cold eye of empiricism. Caveat emptor.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 8:36 PM

@Shari Bambino, I'm feeling neither baffled nor enrolled-in-cold-adaptation-practices. I'm feeling turned off. I'll happily read insatiably about differing logic/interpretations/findings/experiences. This is more like a high school debate IMO.

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 8:19 PM

Look forward to meeting you at AHS12 Kamal!

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 7:46 PM

It does appear that people who think the criticism, I mean kriticism, is about "liking the guy" are simply baffled by all of this.

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66 · March 31, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Kruse talks about his philosophy on making money and "spreading the word" on Jimmy Moore's Livin' La Vida Lo-Carb Show #474 @ about 40:30 where Jimmy asks him about his book(s). I had never heard of him until I listened to that podcast, back on 5-26-2011 (fyi - basic nobody info on me here)

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Yup, that was me! "Hi Dr. Kruse, this is Kamal, you're best friend from paleohacks..." Oh man, that was priceless.

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66 · March 31, 2012 at 7:15 PM

I asked my doc for a ton of labs that I was going to use elsewhere (with a non-MD). He was quick to tell me that HE was still responsible for the lab outcome in terms of treatment for anything awry (at which point I laughed, since he's an endo who loves the ADA et al, but I digress)...

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 7:11 PM

@Alex, I enjoyed your jest. For those who might not know, Emily's reference wasn't gratuitous; it was a direct reference to one of Dr K's past recommendations for women.

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66 · March 31, 2012 at 7:04 PM

The "O" was added?

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5949 · March 31, 2012 at 7:02 PM

She made a sinfully fleshful comment about nipple stimulation that is *surely* an offense to the neolithic proprietary deity of Middle Eastern monotheism.

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 6:50 PM

Or just icey conditions ;) Kamal -- was that you calling in on the UW radio show? You've changed your ID here I think. Just want to make sure its the same person.

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 6:48 PM

Would we want that trade?

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 6:43 PM

I honestly can't imagine ever being offended by a statement made by Emily, but I guess anything's possible.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 6:40 PM

@melissa-hgl, also for the record I don't happen to be trying to apply any of his thoughts about cold adaptation/leptin, etc., at the moment but I did notice an article on Science Daily News that seemed to be moving in the same direction (cold adaptation.)

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 6:36 PM

@melissa-hgl, for the record I am not the type of person to imagine things--that's my point. I don't claim to know/guess the motives and thoughts of other people; I simply read or listen to what they say to see if it changes any of my personal views/knowledge. Beyond that, you can live next to someone for decades and not really know who they are so it's best to withdraw or ignore or dispute evidence rather than speaking about a person's motives/ethics.

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 6:33 PM

I'm upvoting just cause I'm pretty sure nothing here is nor ever was offensive. I'm just sorry I missed the show.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 6:28 PM

When you and Stabby team up it becomes the unholy alliance of Hunt Gather...Stab!!

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 6:04 PM

For example, Chris Kresser as an acupuncturist can write up a consultation, a list of recommendations and lab tests to order, but has to leave it up to the personal MD to order the labs and okay the supplements. That's all okay. Since another MD can order labs and prescription meds, it gets more dicey. But standard of care *everywhere* is always to consult with the primary care doc if one is a specialist.

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 6:02 PM

Haha, you call me the Hunt Gather Bitch on your website and YOU are calling for civility? Let's be consistant here please.

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 6:01 PM

I think 19% of neurosurgeons are being sued anyway at any given moment so maybe he doesn't care. @Evelyn, it isn't so simple. Obtaining a history and giving advice could constitute doc/patient relationship unless he consults with *another* physician (the personal one taking care of the patient). Doctors can't even help at the scenes of accidents without risking lawsuits. "Good samaritan" laws do not apply to docs.

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 5:56 PM

Melissa, what I really want is to believe that people can actually be civil on the internet. Right now, that is only a belief. I am not seeing it here today.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 5:56 PM

I hope Dr. Kruse is careful. I mean, kareful. Combining ice baths, keto diets, heavy supplementation, etc with people having complex medical conditions could lead to some very dicey situations.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 5:41 PM

As far as the numbers go, both Dr. Kruse's site and paleohacks have enjoyed healthy growth in the past few months. I think of it as a Venn Diagram, as I do of everything. If you are very interested in cold baths, brown fat, telemores, and leptin, Kruise on over there. If you like browsing a variety of health-related topics and can handle a variety of online personalities, hack away over here. Or you can choose to do both.

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 5:36 PM

Someone also flagged Dr. Emily Dean's comment as offensive. Guy humor there too?

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 5:36 PM

You just want to believe there is some kind of conspiracy against Dr. Kruse, rather than looking at his ideas critically. Have you ever tried to find the actual references that back up his contentions? Like that cold leads to autophagy?

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 5:09 PM

If you provide me with a link, I will read it and suggest it be removed as well if I find it offensive.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 5:09 PM

@primallykosher, fair question. I could have done fine without yours or the others, but I'm not the down-voter and none of it ruined my day. I just shrugged, and said, Must be guy humor."

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 5:05 PM

Emily -- Couldn't he get around the whole thing by having the consultation contract say that he wasn't providing medical advice? I've always wondered about all these spine surgery patients he claims to treat. Anyone I've ever known who went to such a doc was lucky to get 15 min pre-surgical consultation and a post-op visit or two to discuss the surgery, period.

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4111 · March 31, 2012 at 5:05 PM

How is this comment more offensive than than the pirate and hookers one? It got a +12.

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 4:59 PM

this is offensive. Please remove your post.

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 4:59 PM

I am also very close to being done with PH, just figuring out how I want to do it. It has become most nasty and contentious, and the comments at paleofx were spot on, and Robb Wolf too. Patrik really needs to deal with the moderation issue.

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 4:58 PM

I didn't want to kudgel anyone.

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 4:57 PM

+1 Nance. Maybe Kamal can run the numbers in another month, and find that PH readership has plummeted, and people have been cruising over to Jack's website instead.

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 4:55 PM

The AMA considers first time online medical consultations to be unethical. It is permitted to have follow up visits via phone or video conference. It also gets dicey when you consult with folks in other states so far as licensure. However, if you consult for the benefit of the patient's personal physician (even initial evals) it is considered kosher. So let's say a psychiatrist approached me about a patient wanting my opinion. I could legally charge for a consultation and meet with that patient online without ethical problems. The doc-patient relationship is still with the initial MD.

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19220 · March 31, 2012 at 4:53 PM

Even better send me $248 and I will go and live in Mexico for two months in your favourite twee fishing village and save you the trouble :)

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5232 · March 31, 2012 at 4:43 PM

^ I get upset when I read the forums about desperate people who are now sitting in cold tubs for hours and are having an amplification in symptoms. I don't think that Kruse is a bad guy but some of his recommendations I truly feel are hurting people. And that makes me angry and sad.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 4:35 PM

Just curious--do you often exchange comments back and forth with yourself? Because I do and I find myself extremely intelligent and frequently worth listening to. :-))

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5232 · March 31, 2012 at 4:34 PM

^ Kamal, do affiliate links count as selling supplements? > http://jackkruse.com/recommended-products/

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 4:33 PM

LOL, Kamal, I love you too. :-)) Since I cycle between being a quiet introvert and a silly-gabby social being, I think there are days when my friends would pay me to shut up. But there are also days when they bang on my window and say, "Get out here and quit hiding in there!" It's about balance, I guess.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 4:23 PM

You suck Nance. I'm never going to pay $9 for your ebook on kefir. Hold on, why don't you make an ebook on kefir and charge money for it? I'd pay up to $8 for sure :)

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 4:20 PM

You can't just type these things without saying which you have done. Do it JSJ.

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6082 · March 31, 2012 at 4:17 PM

@Mayo - It would be nice if the they were pirate hookers who popped out of an erupting beer volcano.

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6082 · March 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM

Not until after we free Donny Wahlberg

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 4:11 PM

Lady_Arwen: There is such a thing as a free lunch. Potlucks. See you in four hours!

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20519 · March 31, 2012 at 4:04 PM

No @sunny beaches, it's kraziness.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 4:04 PM

Hold on, sorry, this didn't answer your question at all! I agree with gilliebean above...you and you alone can judge what is worth paying for. Some people who have health issues that aren't responding to other things will find it to be valuable, while others chortle. People's utility functions in behavioral economics have a huge fudge factor at the end, that represented their intuition. People's intuition towards Quilt varies greatly.

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519 · March 31, 2012 at 4:02 PM

is there a correlation between how much woo the gurus use and whether or not they charge/how much they charge for the 'real advice?' If so, there's your heuristic for predicting future Kruses.

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6229 · March 31, 2012 at 3:53 PM

There is no free lunch ... but there are free snacks and appetizers ... There's a lot of free info on in the internet - good blogs, recipes, etc. But some people want an organized way of reading and using info so they will buy the book, consultation, etc. It just depends on your goals. If free advice can solve ALL your health issues, good for you. But if someone still has lingering problems (or wants great optimization), they may get good ROI (time and $) by finding an expert they trust and fine-tuning their ancestral lifestyle. That said - nobody is perfect.

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10044 · March 31, 2012 at 3:49 PM

+1 Very insightful for a "9 year old" ;-)

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 3:08 PM

Can anyone comment on the legality of online medical consultations? Are they regulated at all?

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 2:59 PM

Luckybastard took the words right out of my mouth. We now reap what we have sown. The zoo keepers knew there was a psychotic monkey roaming around but because it brought the crowds in-cause who doesn't love to watch a psychotic monkey for heaven's sake? They are so very entertaining!- they just decided to look the other direction. Mind blowing indeed. Sickening as well. The people who were supposed to be steering the ship abdicated in this one and this community will pay the price for it.

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21405 · March 31, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Free Kevin! With every happy meal.

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3162 · March 31, 2012 at 2:36 PM

don't you mean Kapitalist Kingdom of Kold?

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12407 · March 31, 2012 at 2:15 PM

Many of us here challenged Kruse from the very beginning. Honestly, I blame the paleo "luminaries" who continue to enable this unvetted person who's now been elevated to guru status. It's mindblowingly irresponsible and I'm still flabbergasted that it was allowed to happen.

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 2:10 PM

I wonder if they'd be interested in a trade?

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 1:54 PM

+1 for awsome humor!! The Capitalist Kingdom of Cold!!

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2861 · March 31, 2012 at 12:50 PM

I would say people here were not critical enough of Kruse if somebody like him used this platform to build enough mindshare to start charging money. Most of his comments here have been scatter-brained at best, and just plain woo wrapped in sciencey words like "quantum" at worst. (And now he has Jimmy Moore championing him...)

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5509 · March 31, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Just...craziness!

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455 · March 31, 2012 at 10:30 AM

It's $48/month to be a Kruse Karnivore. It's $248/month to be a member of the elite Kruse Klub.

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5043 · March 31, 2012 at 8:42 AM

You get quantum electrodynamics. That's really expensive stuff, you know. Sounds like a bargain.

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78422 · March 31, 2012 at 7:50 AM

For $3,000 dollars there better be Pirates, hookers and beer volcanoes.

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455 · March 31, 2012 at 6:53 AM

Really? I've never sensed any sort of ego on him. Har har har!

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455 · March 31, 2012 at 6:22 AM

He might not cook the food for you, but he will blow your mind with his Nobel-level insights for ~$3,000 a year, it appears. (?)

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20519 · March 31, 2012 at 3:26 PM

For $248/mo:

  • Take a jumper flight from Hanoi to Singapore - round trip
  • Live in Mexico for two months in my favourite twee fishing village
  • Buy groceries
  • Get a 1-month unlimited Metro card and explore tasty off the Brooklyn beaten path foods

For $2976/year:

  • Fly business class to Japan
  • Jump into a zipcar and go on an amazing road trip
  • Pay rent and bills

Obviously there are way more things I could do but these were kind of top of the list ::slowly sips coffee while pondering adventures::

Wait. What was the question?

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19220 · March 31, 2012 at 4:53 PM

Even better send me $248 and I will go and live in Mexico for two months in your favourite twee fishing village and save you the trouble :)

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 4:20 PM

You can't just type these things without saying which you have done. Do it JSJ.

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20519 · April 01, 2012 at 1:30 PM

Okokok.. on each monetary breakdown there is one thing thing I haven't done. Yet. @Matthew - NO.

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10044 · March 31, 2012 at 3:49 PM

+1 Very insightful for a "9 year old" ;-)

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6082 · April 01, 2012 at 2:06 PM

I love how you put paying rent and bills at the bottom of the list. Adventurer's spirit.

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 1:17 PM

Kruse has his Capitalist Kingdom of Cold! Good for him. I think you can get nipple stimulation elsewhere on the internet for less, however.

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3162 · March 31, 2012 at 2:36 PM

don't you mean Kapitalist Kingdom of Kold?

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 4:58 PM

I didn't want to kudgel anyone.

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0 · April 01, 2012 at 3:55 PM

This comment just got me to register in this site.

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0 · April 01, 2012 at 3:56 PM

This comment just got me to register on this site.

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 1:54 PM

+1 for awsome humor!! The Capitalist Kingdom of Cold!!

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 4:10 PM

I don't have any money to spend, so it's a philosophical question for me.

1) Without pronouncing a verdict on the why's/merit, etc., I have to say if I were Dr Kruse I'd hate PH also. As we saw with Dr Harris this week, there is a subset here that behaves as if they are the Congressional Watergate Committee. Rather than exchanging ideas--in which case everyone should wind up with slightly altered opinions and information--many threads become "blood in the water" shark attacks looking for typos and negative interpretations rather than listening/thinking/questioning conversations. Just saying.

2) It's hard for me to know if Dr Kruse had a commercial agenda all along or whether he simply feels he's reached the point that he has learned so much that he has value to offer that's worth paying for. For example, I reacted positively this morning to David Czonka's offer of an Affordable Ancestral Eating Guide. Should I be assassinating his character just because I'd have to choose between doing laundry or paying $8 for his guide? Does charging eliminate the value he's offering?

Personally, I'm pretty close to logging off PH and moving on because I'm not interested in attacking everyone who offers opinions and/or offers products for my consideration. If we can talk about ideas based on risk/merit rather than whether or not we like someone I'll stick around. But this type of interaction is not on my "how to live a healthy, reduced/stress lifestyle" list.

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 5:56 PM

Melissa, what I really want is to believe that people can actually be civil on the internet. Right now, that is only a belief. I am not seeing it here today.

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 4:59 PM

I am also very close to being done with PH, just figuring out how I want to do it. It has become most nasty and contentious, and the comments at paleofx were spot on, and Robb Wolf too. Patrik really needs to deal with the moderation issue.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 6:36 PM

@melissa-hgl, for the record I am not the type of person to imagine things--that's my point. I don't claim to know/guess the motives and thoughts of other people; I simply read or listen to what they say to see if it changes any of my personal views/knowledge. Beyond that, you can live next to someone for decades and not really know who they are so it's best to withdraw or ignore or dispute evidence rather than speaking about a person's motives/ethics.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 4:23 PM

You suck Nance. I'm never going to pay $9 for your ebook on kefir. Hold on, why don't you make an ebook on kefir and charge money for it? I'd pay up to $8 for sure :)

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 4:57 PM

+1 Nance. Maybe Kamal can run the numbers in another month, and find that PH readership has plummeted, and people have been cruising over to Jack's website instead.

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5043 · April 01, 2012 at 4:53 PM

actually this site is very civil compared to some forums I've lurked on. there's one for english-speaking expats in Switzerland that is just horrific.

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8979 · April 01, 2012 at 1:26 AM

Nobody called you anything.

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 6:02 PM

Haha, you call me the Hunt Gather Bitch on your website and YOU are calling for civility? Let's be consistant here please.

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 5:36 PM

You just want to believe there is some kind of conspiracy against Dr. Kruse, rather than looking at his ideas critically. Have you ever tried to find the actual references that back up his contentions? Like that cold leads to autophagy?

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 6:40 PM

@melissa-hgl, also for the record I don't happen to be trying to apply any of his thoughts about cold adaptation/leptin, etc., at the moment but I did notice an article on Science Daily News that seemed to be moving in the same direction (cold adaptation.)

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78422 · April 02, 2012 at 3:00 AM

@Nance - I see a difference. Harris is civil until provoked. Kruse comes across as a jumped-up Redneck. Now it's possible if I met him in person we'd be best mates, but I doubt it. Just the way he writes, who he attacks, his interviews, I really tried but I can't take him seriously.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 5:41 PM

As far as the numbers go, both Dr. Kruse's site and paleohacks have enjoyed healthy growth in the past few months. I think of it as a Venn Diagram, as I do of everything. If you are very interested in cold baths, brown fat, telemores, and leptin, Kruise on over there. If you like browsing a variety of health-related topics and can handle a variety of online personalities, hack away over here. Or you can choose to do both.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 4:33 PM

LOL, Kamal, I love you too. :-)) Since I cycle between being a quiet introvert and a silly-gabby social being, I think there are days when my friends would pay me to shut up. But there are also days when they bang on my window and say, "Get out here and quit hiding in there!" It's about balance, I guess.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 6:28 PM

When you and Stabby team up it becomes the unholy alliance of Hunt Gather...Stab!!

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8979 · April 07, 2012 at 4:33 AM

Hunt gather Bitch, thems verbs. It wasn't hunt gather, bitch. You outed yourself

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6087 · May 03, 2012 at 10:11 PM

@Melissa To be fair, I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to call someone a Hunt Gather Bitch either.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 3:53 PM

Interesting thoughts, but Quilt appears to be finished with paleohacks, after 662 answers and thousands of comments.

"I'm here on Paleohacks giving free advice. I'm not selling supplements. I'm just helping people."

Technically that is true. He has thrown out lots of information without charging. Say what you will about Quilt, but he definitely brought a different package to the scene. It's like on Brady Bunch, when Oliver appeared on the show. Or Van Halen with Sammy Hagar at the helm. Or Fresh Prince, when they switched out the mom and brought in a kid brother. Totally changed the flavor of the conversation.

You can argue that it's for the better or for the worse, but it's all just subjective. When Kruse appears on Oprah, we can say that he was on our forum before getting his own thread at MDA, before getting his own blog, before creating the Kruse Kruisers and Kruse Karnivors. He's a funny guy and probably a magnetic personality, and I can't wait to meet him. It's going to be surreal!

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5232 · March 31, 2012 at 4:34 PM

^ Kamal, do affiliate links count as selling supplements? > http://jackkruse.com/recommended-products/

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10044 · March 31, 2012 at 10:10 PM

+1 for Oliver on Brady Bunch reference!

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 4:35 PM

Just curious--do you often exchange comments back and forth with yourself? Because I do and I find myself extremely intelligent and frequently worth listening to. :-))

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 4:04 PM

Hold on, sorry, this didn't answer your question at all! I agree with gilliebean above...you and you alone can judge what is worth paying for. Some people who have health issues that aren't responding to other things will find it to be valuable, while others chortle. People's utility functions in behavioral economics have a huge fudge factor at the end, that represented their intuition. People's intuition towards Quilt varies greatly.

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6082 · April 01, 2012 at 2:08 PM

The only time I've seen him speak in person was when he lobbed a vaguely condescending insult at Chris Masterjohn at AHS 2011. Prefacing a rebuttal to a doctoral candidate with, "Well, I AM a doctor, so..." is pretty lame.

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5002 · April 01, 2012 at 8:39 PM

My views of Kruse are complicated, yet I always find myself defending him on PH. Here are some pro-Kruse thoughts to consider.

  1. You say that paleo is awesome because the information is free from hundreds of awesome researchers. Yes, I agree. However, Kruse contributes to this wealth of free information. The content of his blog remains free, and it is considerable (regardless of whether you find his delivery palatable).

  2. Most paleo bloggers monetize to varying degrees. Ads are the most obvious. Amazon links provide income. Sisson and Kresser sell a wide range of products. As has been noted, DeVany requires a small annual fee just to access his site. John Durant offers consultations for a fee. Wolf has a nytimes bestseller and has joked about his high income (which I take no issue with). The paleo bloggers who are doctors all make money as doctors, of course. Kresser charges very high fees for consultations.

  3. The only unusual thing happening in Kruse's case is that the 30-minute consultations fall somewhere in between advice on a blog and proper medical consultations with a doctor. This, however, is a legal issue, and I am sure that he is smart enough to navigate these waters safely - after all, as a surgeon he has a lot of experience with these tricky matters.

  4. Kruse's paid memberships are services like any other. Think about Amazon Prime. People are free to choose whether or not the services are worth the cost.

  5. Personally, I think that an obese person's money is better spent on accessing Kruse and his products - whatever those might be - than on more mainstream services like Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers.

  6. Opportunity costs: consider the case of Kurt Harris as a cautionary tale. He didn't monetize as much as he could have. As a result his blog is pretty inactive these days. That's because, in part, according to him, he is pursuing other investment opportunities. The takeaway is that bloggers who don't make money from their activities are more likely to pursue other activities that do make them money. The time of doctors is especially valuable because they stand to earn so much money just from going to work (rather than blogging for our enjoyment and enrichment).

  7. Related, academic bloggers like Guyenet and Masterjohn are already making income for their research - qua professional researchers - and they are also accustomed to the fact that their labors entail a sacrifice: all academics could have made more money as professionals, but chose to sacrifice income to pursue their research careers (this is something a PhD student like me knows a lot about).

So give Kruse a break. You might not like him, his message, or his style - that's fine. But his choice to monetize a membership that offers a bundle of goods does not deserve to be a topic of controversy.

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8979 · April 02, 2012 at 2:05 AM

+1.....................

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6229 · April 11, 2012 at 3:39 PM

All excellent points made thoughtfully ...

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 10:17 PM

I think it's great. Hopefully he'll use the money to hire someone who is a really good writer and editor to help clean up his writing. Check spelling, check references, insert proper footnotes, format correctly, etc. You can't expect to be good at everything. I don't do my own surgery, I would hire a surgeon if I needed to do that. They do train science PhDs on science writing (I was in classes with a lot of them when I took editing and science writing classes), but they usually do not train MDs in this.

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2890 · April 01, 2012 at 12:04 AM

I don't understand how anyone can believe a neurosurgeon knows the secrets of quantum neurochemistry. Surgeons know how to cut, that's it. Doesn't he do mostly spine work anyway?

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:36 AM

*Some* of us watched streaming. It won't be posted for a month I think.

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 1:19 AM

I don't know - all will be revealed...I guess. His poor wife.

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:51 AM

Honestly I cannot understand why he missed out on naming it "Factor K" since there would be less overlap with Weston Price's X Factor. He probably didn't even know anything about X Factor when he started biohacking though, since he claims to have known nothing about "Wil Hof" (his spelin)

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610 · April 01, 2012 at 10:46 AM

Jaminet thinks the surgery that Kruse had was liposuction.

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2890 · April 01, 2012 at 12:01 AM

The first problem is there's nothing relevant to cite. If there is a method to his madness it's probably derived from C. Elegans studies and completely useless for humans. The second problem is he's going to pocket the money.

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56616 · April 01, 2012 at 12:31 AM

really? is his TED talk up yet?

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455 · April 01, 2012 at 1:55 AM

Dylan, it's my understanding that certain strains of MRSA respond to some antibiotics. And that healthy people can come down with MRSA infections as well. My own father picked up a serious MRSA infection at the hospital he worked at, and was not allowed back at work until it cleared up . . . which makes me wonder, how soon after his surgery did Dr. Kruse return to doing neurosugery? It would make me kind of nervous to think that my doctor was purposely injecting himself with MRSA and then operating on me.

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1402 · March 31, 2012 at 10:37 PM

There might be a little less material if he got an editor to do all of those things for him...

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2890 · April 01, 2012 at 12:06 AM

I can claim bullshit too. I injected myself with ebola and survived. Whoopdy do.

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24523 · April 01, 2012 at 12:38 AM

What is factor X? I must know, in order to quench my insatiable thirst for all things factor-related.

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:02 AM

But, I think they do train surgeons to avoid MRSA and stuff. He claimed at his TED talk to injecting himself with it during his last "epic biohack" right before some sort of surgery (which was without anesthesia and used cold only) to prove that CT works. I *guess* the unanesthetized surgery alone would have proven a point, but he really hit it out of the park with the highly contagious bacteria. Hope his surgeon knew. Hope anyone who shakes his hand knows too!

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56616 · April 01, 2012 at 1:12 AM

Is there a medicine named MRSA? Or is he serious about injecting THE MRSA????

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16131 · April 01, 2012 at 12:57 AM

#tedxnashville or http://forum.jackkruse.com/showthread.php?611-Dr-Kruse-TedX-talk-to-be-streamed-between-4-amp-5pm-today-Sat-Mar-31

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 10:38 PM

Good point! Now, to keep up with Kamal you need to add a comment about your answer then type another comment about the first. :-))

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1136 · April 01, 2012 at 11:35 AM

One more thing… MRSA on the skin is one thing. MRSA in the blood is quite another thing altogether. Same with E coli - in the gut it is mostly harmless unless you get the wrong strain. But in the kidneys or the blood it is bad news. "Injecting" these bugs anywhere, particularly around open wounds, is a disaster waiting to happen.

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1136 · April 01, 2012 at 1:56 AM

Um, well if you ever turn up positive for MRSA in the hospital via noseswab you get put on contact precautions in that hospital forever more. Sure it might not be a concern now, but what if you get lymphoma in the future and need your immune system shut down? He was probably already a carrier, though, having spent so much time in the hospital. BUT STILL.

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15003 · April 01, 2012 at 2:23 AM

Kruse streamed his talk himself on ustream. I watched both the presentation and viewed the Twitter stream. I suspect he had a better presentation and reception at paleofx, as I don't think it is a good thing that "I think we're listening to the origin story of a super-villain" was tweeted and RT'd several times by folks there!

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1402 · April 01, 2012 at 1:37 AM

I meant to say infection in there, that's the key word. It's like injecting E. Coli into yourself... E. Coli is generally harmless, it's just certain strains and *infections* that give it a scary name

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1402 · April 01, 2012 at 1:35 AM

MRSA is really only a concern for the immune compromised. It's an antibiotic resistant strain of a fairly common bacteria. Staph that isn't MRSA can be treated with an antibiotic while MRSA cannot. It's really just sensationalism and I guess he knew that a bunch of people would be like "MRSA!??"

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15003 · April 01, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Hopefully that is not factor X ... stress your immune system and see if you sink or swim!

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 2:07 PM

I'm extremely disheartened at the numbers of folks looking to Kruse for FREE advice, let alone that anyone would pay membership for his site or consultation or whatever. In his recent interview with Sean Croxton on Underground Wellness Radio, Jack tells us why he's "paleo" -- pretty much it seemed like a good place on the internet to "dump" his ideas. He used sites like this one and MDA (Sisson is such a good businessman for his brand, I remain amazed he let Jack get away with that).

The first time I addressed Jack was because of his comments on the Taubes/Guyenet dust up at AHS11. I called him a LLVLC "flavor of the month". He came on my blog blasting me for calling him low carb and insisting that he wasn't a low carber. Don't get me started on Jimmy Moore's promotion of Quack Frost who he now describes as a stalwart low carber. My how things change, eh?

I suppose if WAPF can have its Mercola, the paleo community can have its Kruse. Sigh.

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 6:48 PM

Would we want that trade?

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 2:10 PM

I wonder if they'd be interested in a trade?

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1416 · April 01, 2012 at 3:09 PM

It's a valid point, Evelyn. "Wait a minute, you want us to *pay* for this Kool-Aid, Mr. Jones?"

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610 · April 07, 2012 at 1:34 PM

He is also offering consults now. $299 first month 1hr consult, follow up months, 30 mins $149.

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78422 · March 31, 2012 at 6:16 AM

Nope. You got it.

$30/yr? Ok, sure....it's DeVany.

$248/mo? For Kruse? Dude better be cookin' the food for me.

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6082 · March 31, 2012 at 4:17 PM

@Mayo - It would be nice if the they were pirate hookers who popped out of an erupting beer volcano.

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78422 · March 31, 2012 at 7:50 AM

For $3,000 dollars there better be Pirates, hookers and beer volcanoes.

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78422 · April 02, 2012 at 2:48 AM

@David What do you think this is? Heaven? LOL

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455 · March 31, 2012 at 6:22 AM

He might not cook the food for you, but he will blow your mind with his Nobel-level insights for ~$3,000 a year, it appears. (?)

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5043 · March 31, 2012 at 8:42 AM

You get quantum electrodynamics. That's really expensive stuff, you know. Sounds like a bargain.

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2890 · March 31, 2012 at 6:38 AM

Always knew Kruse had these intentions.

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455 · March 31, 2012 at 6:53 AM

Really? I've never sensed any sort of ego on him. Har har har!

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8239 · March 31, 2012 at 4:04 PM

I am not a Kruse paid subscriber. If I choose to survey his goods and decide I want to partake, I'll sign up and I'll pay the requisite fee. If Kruse does well financially with his paid venture, we can assume it's because others make the same choice. If his new enterprise fails -- well, you get the point. I have no idea why Kruse evokes such incendiary emotion among so many, but I'm guessing he finds it all amusing. Want to rid your life of his influence? Simple. Stop reading, stop stalking, stop paying attention. Ignore the guy.

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5232 · March 31, 2012 at 4:43 PM

^ I get upset when I read the forums about desperate people who are now sitting in cold tubs for hours and are having an amplification in symptoms. I don't think that Kruse is a bad guy but some of his recommendations I truly feel are hurting people. And that makes me angry and sad.

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8239 · March 31, 2012 at 9:07 PM

I get your point re people who offer advice that seem be nutty and then the advice gets followed. Especially advice givers who did enough education to be allowed to put MD after their name. Still, isn't it up to each of us to guard our own boundaries carefully re information absorption? I used to buy all kinds of unverified ideas, on face value, like vegetarianism as the supposed optimal state for humans. Because I read a lot about health, I continue to encounter claims that cause me to be skeptical — yet this doesn't stop me from examining them in the cold eye of empiricism. Caveat emptor.

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60 · April 02, 2012 at 12:48 PM

Not a Doctor - might you not pop over there and explain to these people what they are doing to themselves, if you have such conviction and get so upset. Wouldn't that be the RIGHT thing to do? Yes, personal responsibility, and you have no obligation to the these desearate folks, and all that. But if you have compassion, you might be trying to correct the wrongs! IMO :)

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8574 · March 31, 2012 at 12:34 PM

Spread the word!

Oh and now there is a website too: http://freepaleo.com.

paleo-membership-sites?-kruse-up-to-$248/mo,-devany-$30/yr,-etc

Files available for download:
free-paleo-vlarge.png (1124??248) http://bit.ly/HC9d8t
free-paleo-large.png (562??124) http://bit.ly/HC99Wk
free-paleo-medium.png (281??62) http://bit.ly/HC9kkm
free-paleo-small.png (140??31) http://bit.ly/HC9mJc

10 points if you know the bumper sticker reference.

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1012 · March 31, 2012 at 9:21 PM

(*) with purchase of second Paleo of equal or greater value.

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21405 · March 31, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Free Kevin! With every happy meal.

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6082 · March 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM

Not until after we free Donny Wahlberg

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66 · March 31, 2012 at 7:04 PM

The "O" was added?

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364 · March 31, 2012 at 12:42 PM

"Dr." Jack Kruse is the original paleo hack.

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78422 · April 16, 2012 at 3:32 PM

I see what you did there....

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20353 · March 31, 2012 at 6:21 AM

I would not pay to access a website.

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20353 · April 01, 2012 at 10:20 PM

I have no problem with buying something online or having adds on the website.

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6229 · April 01, 2012 at 3:15 PM

Then you probably shouldn't buy anything online. Websites when they get big enough need advertising revenue and/or product selling. It takes time and/or money to maintain a website. When you shop on Amazon, or whatever large website you buy from is free? Amazon has website costs too - you don't see the hidden costs because you're paying for it when you buy products from them.

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6229 · April 01, 2012 at 3:18 PM

Then you probably shouldn't buy anything online. Websites when they get big enough need advertising revenue and/or product selling. It takes time and/or money to maintain a website. When you shop on Amazon, or whatever large website you buy from you think it is free??!! Amazon has website costs too - you don't see the hidden costs because you're paying for it when you buy products from them.

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1416 · April 01, 2012 at 3:13 PM

Well this makes no sense either.

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136 · March 31, 2012 at 2:28 PM

Jack Kruse,the P.T. Barnum of Paleo

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78422 · April 02, 2012 at 9:50 PM

Is he selling white salmon too?

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839 · March 31, 2012 at 4:56 PM

The way I understand it, and from everything Kruse has said, this new paid membership will be in Addition to the free content he will continue to post/provide... I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. It's not like he's taking all of his content and making it a paid-only thing (didn't DeVany do this?), he's just adding a paid option for those that can afford it or need the extra guidance...

Whether you like the guy or not, I really don't see why this is getting everyone so hot and bothered...

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2861 · April 01, 2012 at 4:32 AM

Nance, the thing is that I have seen the opposite. In Kansas and Texas they have come close on various occasions to removing all mention of dinosaurs from science textbooks (if the Earth is only 6000 years old then dinosaurs are nothing but mythology). I don’t think it is because people are ridiculing young Earth creationism and giving it "drama"; I think it is because people inclined to know this stuff (science guys) are not speaking out loudly enough.

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 7:46 PM

It does appear that people who think the criticism, I mean kriticism, is about "liking the guy" are simply baffled by all of this.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 11:50 PM

I am not a Kruse Kid and I didn't call names--I protested the lack of reason and the negative tone. Calling him the PT Barnum of paleo and the original paleo hack is an expression of valid concern? Just because I don't attack him I must be a follower? Sorry, just as correlation is not causation, failure to mock/insult is not loyalty or belief. For me, it's common courtesy.

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2861 · April 01, 2012 at 3:29 AM

Kruse is a pseudoscientific buffoon. His comments on PH have mostly been buffoonery. I just don’t understand why every buffoon scientific theory he spits out should be subject to courteous, reasoned debate, especially when he himself fails to do this. Of the dozens of his comments that I have seen that are blatantly false, I have never seen him say “oops, my bad.” He never retracts his inane, blatantly false, pseudoscientific comments. If you want to spend your time courteously giving equal standing to buffoonery, then more power to you, but some people think we would still be in the Dark Ages

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 8:36 PM

@Shari Bambino, I'm feeling neither baffled nor enrolled-in-cold-adaptation-practices. I'm feeling turned off. I'll happily read insatiably about differing logic/interpretations/findings/experiences. This is more like a high school debate IMO.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 11:14 PM

I am not a Kruse Kid and I didn't call names--I protested the lack of reason and the negative tone. Calling him the PT Barnum of paleo and the original paleo hack is an expression of valid concern? Just because I don't attack him I must be a follower? Sorry, just as correlation is not causation, failure to mock/insult is not loyalty or belief. For me, it's common decency.

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37187 · April 01, 2012 at 3:39 AM

@Paleo2.0 you may be correct, but another possibility is that positions/recommendations that are ignored shrivel and die. Drama, on the other hand, ensures lots of attention and attracts people to see what the fuss is about.

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839 · April 01, 2012 at 5:11 PM

I think there's a lot of "name calling" on both sides actually, and that's the part that bothers me... When a question on membership sites turns into a bash-fest because one group doesn't like the ideas of another, I would call that off topic and not helpful... Start another question on the benefits (or lack there of) of Cold Thermogenisis (Leptin RX, etc.) if you want to save people from the "pseudoscientific buffoon"...

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 10:52 PM

But see that's the problem Nance. People see his detractors as playing "high school" when in fact they have very valid concerns. The Kruse Kids just call names instead of hearing the concerns and having a dialogue about the issues. Jack's critics are criticizing not because they hate him but because they love the paleo community and see what he is doing to it as a negative. This "if you don't like it don't listen" stuff is just crap. We should be able to talk about it. We are required to talk about it. Sorry but I am just sick to death of the patronizing crap coming from Kruse Kamp.

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4111 · March 31, 2012 at 4:35 PM

Does it come with thermo adapted hookers and guaranteed super long telemeres?

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 4:59 PM

this is offensive. Please remove your post.

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8979 · March 31, 2012 at 5:09 PM

If you provide me with a link, I will read it and suggest it be removed as well if I find it offensive.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 6:43 PM

I honestly can't imagine ever being offended by a statement made by Emily, but I guess anything's possible.

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 5:09 PM

@primallykosher, fair question. I could have done fine without yours or the others, but I'm not the down-voter and none of it ruined my day. I just shrugged, and said, Must be guy humor."

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37187 · March 31, 2012 at 7:11 PM

@Alex, I enjoyed your jest. For those who might not know, Emily's reference wasn't gratuitous; it was a direct reference to one of Dr K's past recommendations for women.

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4111 · March 31, 2012 at 5:05 PM

How is this comment more offensive than than the pirate and hookers one? It got a +12.

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 5:36 PM

Someone also flagged Dr. Emily Dean's comment as offensive. Guy humor there too?

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1136 · April 01, 2012 at 1:03 AM

I was flagged as offensive? Do I get a badge for that?

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24271 · March 31, 2012 at 6:33 PM

I'm upvoting just cause I'm pretty sure nothing here is nor ever was offensive. I'm just sorry I missed the show.

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5949 · March 31, 2012 at 7:02 PM

She made a sinfully fleshful comment about nipple stimulation that is *surely* an offense to the neolithic proprietary deity of Middle Eastern monotheism.

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638 · April 01, 2012 at 5:49 PM

For healthy people, it may not be a big decision whether to pay for paleo products and services, or not. We already pay for everything from the food choices we make, gym memberships, health insurance, co-pays and deductibles, etc.... When I add up what I pay for health insurance, including deductibles and co-pays, it adds up to a lot. If I had a choice on how to spend some of my own health care allowance (which I should!), I would much rather channel some to a program that offered lab prescriptions-interpretations-consultations rather than the regular doctors I've had to deal with for the last 30 years. In a way, I hope what Kruse is offering is a type of virtual clinic and that the concept catches on with other progressive physicians. That would be cool. Now that I'm well on my way to better health, I probably don't need much in the way of health care except for annual monitoring of certain labs. That was not the case 18 months ago when I started out. I had metabolic syndrome, TTD, hypothyroid, fatty liver, sleep apnea. Good health comes with a price tag, which is more than just the monetary aspect. I wish I knew ten years ago, what I know now.

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3501 · April 01, 2012 at 1:40 AM

Seriously? This is a question for PH? Like the dude? Pay. Don't like him? Don't. Ridiculousness. J

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13983 · March 31, 2012 at 12:10 PM

This question was already asked here.

My answer...

I was 10 years old when my mother said something I've never forgotten. We were shopping and I asked her why she picked up the more expensive brand of an item. She said, "I pay money for quality." Basically, you get what you pay for (ideally - provided all the relevant information is available to you).

Also, I should mention that both of my parents are educators. My mother taught at a private elementary school and my father teaches MBAs and PhDs at an expensive business school. I've been taught that quality knowledge is valuable and is worth my time and money.

I recognize that I have a bias; but, I'm definitely of the camp that says, "I'm willing to give a little of my resources (time or money or both) to get something of quality." Fair exchange for quality information, ya know? I certainly run away screaming when I smell consumerism lurking in the dark (but flashy) corners of the interwebs; but if I deem something worth a monetary (or other kind of resource) value, I'll happily pay.

That said, is going to a CrossFit gym worth the monthly fee? Or can I get a similar benefit following the Primal Blueprint Workout Plan? I guess it depends on my goals. And in the paleo community, there surely is a wide range of fitness goals!!

Some paleo people will gladly pay the membership fee for Art Devany's website or buy some articles over at Performance Menu. Others are content with simply listening to podcasts and watching videos (both of which have a price of time).

Bottom line: only you can determine the value of something to your own life.

Now, I wrote this before "The Quilt" became the "thing" he is and began charging. Notice that I said above "provided all the relevant information is available to you." Unfortunately, that's not always the case. But my opinion stands.

Also, I should mention, I have since started paying the monthly fee for the CrossFit gym and I love love love it.

P.S. Let's be sure to keep the debate to talking about "costs and benefits of paying for paleo info in general. ...This means membership sites."

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39841 · April 01, 2012 at 8:10 PM

I was going to suggest that the good doctor throw in a complimentary lobotomy for the highest membership level.

I then realized that it was a prerequisite for any of them.

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1402 · March 31, 2012 at 5:40 PM

Compared to other resources, it's really not even worth your own free time to go to Jack Kruse's website. I know that sounds really inflammatory, but the fact is that there are so many good free resources that paying for anything has never even crossed my mind.

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364 · April 01, 2012 at 12:05 AM

If he's charging, he really should have some concrete medical research to back up his claims. His medical specialty isn't in the area he's blabbing about, so what exactly is he charging for besides his time?

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5949 · September 07, 2013 at 12:44 AM

$248 per months sounds like a lot, but it does include a monthly 30 minute private consultation with Dr. Kruse. Despite all the woo he seems to embrace, he's still a trained medical professional who can charge accordingly. That said, he's ventured far enough into Wooville that I would no more pay to consult him than I would Don Matesz.

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 8:19 PM

Look forward to meeting you at AHS12 Kamal!

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 5:56 PM

I hope Dr. Kruse is careful. I mean, kareful. Combining ice baths, keto diets, heavy supplementation, etc with people having complex medical conditions could lead to some very dicey situations.

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8933 · April 01, 2012 at 2:32 PM

Can't believe Kruse didn't immediately knew who you are, Kamal! For anyone interested it's http://www.blogtalkradio.com/undergroundwellness/2012/03/09/dr-jack-kruse and Kamal tunes in around 73:00

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 5:05 PM

Emily -- Couldn't he get around the whole thing by having the consultation contract say that he wasn't providing medical advice? I've always wondered about all these spine surgery patients he claims to treat. Anyone I've ever known who went to such a doc was lucky to get 15 min pre-surgical consultation and a post-op visit or two to discuss the surgery, period.

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 6:01 PM

I think 19% of neurosurgeons are being sued anyway at any given moment so maybe he doesn't care. @Evelyn, it isn't so simple. Obtaining a history and giving advice could constitute doc/patient relationship unless he consults with *another* physician (the personal one taking care of the patient). Doctors can't even help at the scenes of accidents without risking lawsuits. "Good samaritan" laws do not apply to docs.

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24523 · April 01, 2012 at 12:34 AM

And I you, Evelyn. Biology and humor are a potent mix in your blog posts.

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66 · March 31, 2012 at 7:15 PM

I asked my doc for a ton of labs that I was going to use elsewhere (with a non-MD). He was quick to tell me that HE was still responsible for the lab outcome in terms of treatment for anything awry (at which point I laughed, since he's an endo who loves the ADA et al, but I digress)...

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15003 · April 01, 2012 at 6:11 PM

Thanks for the link Korion. He's talking about 130 lbs in 11 months as requiring something radical ... in his case, hours of CT. Clearly being beat up by Bob or Jillian on the Biggest Loser ranch can work too. What do I know? I lost 125 lbs in 14 months without ice baths or all-day exercise. Hmm.

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 4:55 PM

The AMA considers first time online medical consultations to be unethical. It is permitted to have follow up visits via phone or video conference. It also gets dicey when you consult with folks in other states so far as licensure. However, if you consult for the benefit of the patient's personal physician (even initial evals) it is considered kosher. So let's say a psychiatrist approached me about a patient wanting my opinion. I could legally charge for a consultation and meet with that patient online without ethical problems. The doc-patient relationship is still with the initial MD.

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8879 · March 31, 2012 at 6:50 PM

Or just icey conditions ;) Kamal -- was that you calling in on the UW radio show? You've changed your ID here I think. Just want to make sure its the same person.

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24523 · March 31, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Yup, that was me! "Hi Dr. Kruse, this is Kamal, you're best friend from paleohacks..." Oh man, that was priceless.

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56616 · March 31, 2012 at 3:08 PM

Can anyone comment on the legality of online medical consultations? Are they regulated at all?

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8879 · April 02, 2012 at 12:16 AM

@Beth -- I thought immediately of you when I heard him say that. Then I thought about so many others losing 10 lbs/month. Not to mention his personal "maven" Jimmy who lost 170 lbs in 9 mos and 180 lbs in 12.

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1136 · March 31, 2012 at 6:04 PM

For example, Chris Kresser as an acupuncturist can write up a consultation, a list of recommendations and lab tests to order, but has to leave it up to the personal MD to order the labs and okay the supplements. That's all okay. Since another MD can order labs and prescription meds, it gets more dicey. But standard of care *everywhere* is always to consult with the primary care doc if one is a specialist.

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37187 · April 01, 2012 at 1:48 AM

Kamal, Evelyn, YES! I may have to work to follow some of science but the humor makes it all worthwhile because I never know when the next chuckle-generator will pop up.

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26 · April 01, 2012 at 4:42 PM

If you don't like it - just ignore it. do you people listen to a radio sataion that plays music you don't want to listen to then call the satation to complain? Or take out an ad in the paper decrying the awful music you were somehow "forced" to listen to?

Do you sit though a stupid television commercial, or an offensive television show, watch the wntire thing and then complain about it later? My God, grow up. If you don't like what the guy says, then just ignore it an move on. My father once told me "It's easy to be AGINST something, but what are you FOR??", and in the same breath, "If you can't say something nice about someone, keep your %%&^(^( moth shut!"

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28 · March 31, 2012 at 9:54 AM

I think this is a typo since the next level up is $48pm. Even so if it is it's a silly mistake for them to make.

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455 · March 31, 2012 at 10:30 AM

It's $48/month to be a Kruse Karnivore. It's $248/month to be a member of the elite Kruse Klub.

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5509 · March 31, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Just...craziness!

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20519 · March 31, 2012 at 4:04 PM

No @sunny beaches, it's kraziness.

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28 · April 27, 2012 at 6:13 PM

Yes, My initial thought is wrong and you are right it is indeed $248. Wow, takes a lot of earning.

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3742 · April 02, 2012 at 8:47 PM

We don't know what he plans to do with the money so it's a bit early to judge. I would love to see him use that money to run some clinical trials. OTOH, surgeons in particular tend to be narcissistic, obnoxious, and have an exaggerated sense of entitlement, not unlike other exceptionally well paid professions, so there's probably reason to take offense. It's hard to believe that $250/mo could be worth it.

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