6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
6

Another VLC/LC versus "Regular" Paleo Question.

by (3946)
Updated September 16, 2014 at 7:27 PM
Created July 27, 2011 at 4:50 PM

Yes, I know I am about to beat a dead horse and that you are probably frustrated about reading another VLC/LC versus Paleo, but here goes:

After reading every thread possible on VLC and opinions against VLC/LC and whether Paleo should even be associated with VLC/LC, I have come to the following conclusions:

  1. I ABSOLUTELY needed VLC to lose even one ounce on Paleo. I tried "regular" Paleo and did not lose, while my husband lost body fat he didn't even know he had. My brother had the same experience as my husband, as well as my nephew.

  2. All of the females in my family had to go VLC to lose any weight on Paleo. The single exception is my sister-in-law who is doing an Ironman this weekend.

  3. I believe that VLC/LC has its place within the Paleo spectrum for weight loss, addressing diabetes, and other heath issues, that cannot be addressed with regular Paleo. While Paleo is a healthy way of eating, it does not solve all problems. Most of us are here for health reasons. For some, that means losing significant amounts of weight. Maybe those who are adamantly against VLC/LC Paleo are otherwise healthy and do not completely understand the other side.

Now that I am satisfied with my weight (though I could stand to gain some muscle) I am interested in what the best ratio is between fat, protein, and carbs, in order to maintain optimal health. I do not want to get stomach cancer or hypothyroid, or do any other damage by staying on VLC for too long. On the other hand, I do not want to gain significant amounts of weight, or damage my health by having too many carbs. I know this is a highly individual thing, but I would like to know, IYHO, what is the best ratio for optimal health?

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a
1074 · April 09, 2013 at 5:25 AM

late reply but I no longer eat any fructose (even in minute quantities, in vegs/fruits). I only eat fat/protein from meat/eggs + white rice and potatoes/asian yams (low in fruc). I believe fructose and fructans is the key to weight gain/loss. those with a long line of morbid obesity are prob extremely sensitive to fructose. my mom's line is like that although I'm a guy

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · November 07, 2011 at 4:05 PM

Carbs only cause me to overeat if they mess with my blood glucose levels. First of all congrats Asiangrok on your success with more carbs. Perhaps you've just found a good combo of macros that work well for your body? Some people, like me, feel less hungry with more volume of food so in that way I certainly can feel less hungry with more carbs although they have to be fibrous. My problem is that while I'm less hungry with more carbs and I can't lose weight at that level. Can maintain but not lose. Not sure in your case but think it's great you found what works for you.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a
1074 · November 07, 2011 at 8:20 AM

so confusing. lol

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a
1074 · November 07, 2011 at 8:17 AM

I have added back more carbs up to 100g/day, after doing LC for a few months. My appetite actually did drop...why would that happen?? I've always been led to believe carbs cause me to overeat. I think I'm leptin sensitive, in which case carbs boost leptin more per cal than protein/fat.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1
18671 · July 29, 2011 at 6:48 PM

Just to add an anecdote, before I went ZC, I had slightly low thyroid. After being ZC a while I had normal TSH and T4, but slightly low T3. A few months later, and even that normalized.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1
18671 · July 29, 2011 at 6:46 PM

I'm coming in late, here, but I just wanted to add that I don't personally worry about long-term effects of ketosis. There have been cultures that thrived on it, and anecdotally, I'm not showing any signs of ill health. I do agree with Rose, though, that you might as well eat as much carbohydrate as your body tolerates. What that amount is for you is an empirical matter.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 3:16 PM

I drink orange juice too. Yesterday I had half a gallon in one meal after a 4 hour surf session.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 3:15 PM

I eat pretty much any carb source that agrees with me, right now that's white potatoes and white rice but I'm thinking about trying out sweet potatoes for awhile. Sweet potatoes, brussel sprouts, cabbage and broccoli all have a significant amount of oxalates and those are correlated with joint pain so maybe something to think about.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 3:07 PM

Congratulations and holy shit, Cliff! Forget about what carbs *I* added back in; which ones are *you* eating, at 600+ grams a day w/o weight gain? To answer your question seriously, for me it was one sweet potato to start it off at Thanksgiving, and then brussels sprouts, cabbage, or broccoli daily. Pretty much the veggies I ate when I was VLC. I've speculated that for me it's a combo of insulin + extraordinary sensitivity to plant lectins (b/c of the joint pain). Plus I've got 4 generations of obese women on both sides -- folks who were fat long before the current epidemic.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 2:44 PM

Also just to let you know I've been very obese and I lost it all and now eat 600+ grams of carbs daily with no fat gains ever.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 2:43 PM

You comment about athletic folks is pretty ironic imo because I find its the opposite and its the people who used to be unhealthy and overweight who are a little too enthusiastic about VLC.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 2:41 PM

What are the carb sources you added back in? The 15 pounds could easily all be water and glycogen. "dropped to the high 140s on ZC. I'm pretty sure that wasn't all water" It probably wasn't and I never alluded to that. =

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 1:34 PM

Or, take a look at a review of isoenergetic diets -- VLC/KDs come out pretty far ahead for weight loss, with no significant change in glucagon (!), but a drop in circulating insulin in the VLC subjects: http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v12/n11s/full/oby2004276a.html

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 1:19 PM

Didn't mean that as harsh as it sounded. I appreciate the counsel, but I think a lot of young, non-female athletic folks are a little too enthusiastic about carbs for *everyone.* Those of us with many (many!) years of experience battling obesity have had to find out the hard truth on our own. Although cutting carbs sure beats the hell out of dropping to 500 cals/day (the only other way I've ever lost weight.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 1:16 PM

Cliff, I stalled at 190 for two years on VLC, and dropped to the high 140s on ZC. I'm pretty sure that wasn't all water. And six weeks of carbs added back in led to 15+ pounds of weight gain. You can call it water if you want, but I gotta live in this body. Also, the part about the joint pain isn't minor.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 1:03 PM

@rose-you realize rapid gains with carbs are most likely water and glycogen? @annie- Why do you think you would gain weight with that many carbs?

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 5:05 AM

...had any trouble on VLC yet, I'm betting you won't have trouble on VLC in the future. But to be sure, why not try what I did? A trial run of, say, four weeks of Paleo-approved carbstuffs, added back in small quantities, and see what happens? If your scale, your energy level, and your peace of mind survive, then you can keep it up. Otherwise, back to VLC, no long-term harm done. (I don't remember if I said it in this thread already, but oh well. Barring NADs, I think people should eat as broadly as their bodies let them; variety makes nutritional sense.)

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 5:00 AM

Phew. I thought I was going to have to crack a textbook. My honest opinion is that if a way of eating is unhealthy for you, you'll know it pretty quickly (that's with the understanding that you're eating fairly clean, non-neolithic foods, regardless of macro ratios). The couple times I've tried adding veggies and yams into my ZC woe, I've had rapid weight gain and return of joint pain within weeks. OTOH, Ben had receding gums on ZC within a few weeks. It seems totally likely to me that we have individual "best" plans, depending on genetics, history, etc. In other words, if you haven't...

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 29, 2011 at 4:33 AM

Thanks Rose, still just can't quite figure out if VLC (long term) is healthy or unhealthy. Should I add carbs, should I just stay with what's working, or ???

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 28, 2011 at 7:39 PM

Annie, I'm not the brightest bulb when it comes to deep biochemistry, but I'll give it a shot anyway: What's confusing you? Maybe I can help. Or make it worse. ;D

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:35 PM

Thank you Eric.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:34 PM

Than you Mr. Turkey.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107
15583 · July 28, 2011 at 6:26 AM

@The Quilt. Is the claim i) that you should go even lower carb while losing weight, ii) that you should go higher carb after you've lost weight or iii) the amount of carbs should be determined by measuring your blood sugar?

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · July 28, 2011 at 5:06 AM

Get your mind out of the gutter. Well I hope you are able to make it. I'm in a bit of chaos as well and had the fleeting thought of passing but I've been looking forward to this for months so I'm just getting on a plane and getting the heck out of town. I'll clean up the mess when I get back.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 28, 2011 at 3:38 AM

Going down...I'm intrigued. I might just have to throw the fight if that's the case. Regarding my attendance, not a done deal yet. Work/life chaos is being sorted out.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · July 28, 2011 at 3:25 AM

I wish you could too Rose. Aravind's going down! Of course I can't handle alcohol at all so I may pass out before I smash him into the ground (figuratively speaking of course.) Aravind is it in question whether you're going or not? I thought it was a done deal?

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 28, 2011 at 3:13 AM

Shari and Aravind, I hope you get to have that discussion over a glass or three. Sure wish I could be there, too. :)

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:07 AM

A little more confused now after reading that thread on gluconeogenesis.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:05 AM

Thanks Rose and Paul, for your input. I am definitely looking for enough carbs for optimal health, not too many, not too few, and the least stress on my body.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 2:59 AM

Quilt-thank you for your input, I was hoping to hear your thoughts. I will check out the glucometer, not sure what that is.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 2:58 AM

Thank you David, that was very helpful.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 2:57 AM

Thank you Shari, this is an excellent suggestion. I will add just a few carbs at a time and eat only enough to prevent weight gain.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 2:54 AM

How many carbs a day are you eating Melissa?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 28, 2011 at 12:40 AM

I could write a novel and as you've seen, sometimes I do here on PH. However this will be a great discussion face to face assuming I still attend AHS. I think this can be a healthy, respectful debate over a glass of Paleo approved vino...ok maybe a couple bottles, not just 1 glass.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · July 28, 2011 at 12:32 AM

Aravind, lol. Oye. Yes I did see your video response. That was hysterical but I can't imagine that actually happening. OMG. As far as what we ate there were fresh veggies and fruit at every meal. We got to eat a cookie once a week. Oatmeal for breakfast. Nuts and fruit for snacks. Maybe some popcorn for a treat. There was a couple of cans of Campbells soup in the pantry and some oils that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole now. But relatively speaking we did pretty well. You can try to change my mind but it would take a lot. Epigenetics might play a part but not the major IMO.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:51 PM

Eat a toxin rich diet and then the genetic hand you were dealt may lead to huge variability even amongst siblings. Now once we are overweight, the path of remediation (e.g. LC vs LF, etc) IS A VERY DIFFERENT TOPIC.....Ok, I gotta go feed my daughter dinner. I'll be back though...consider yourselves warned!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Eat a toxin rich diet and then the genetic hand you were dealt may lead to huge variability even amongst siblings. Now once we are overweight, the path of remediation (e.g. LC vs LF, etc) is a different issue.....Ok, I gotta go feed my daughter dinner. I'll be back though...consider yourselves warned!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Eat a toxin rich diet and then the genetic hand you were dealt may lead to huge variability even amongst siblings. Now once we are overweight, the path of remediation (e.g. LC vs LF, etc) is a different issue.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:46 PM

@Shari/Rose - The fact that I cannot tolerate crap that my brother can means I was dealt an inferior hand at birth. But you cannot conclude that therefore my diet was not the cause of being overweight. If I had avoided the toxins (which my brother could/can tolerate with respect being overweight) then perhaps I would not have struggled my whole life. I can cite quite a bit of evidence regarding this when relating to HG studies. Eat a toxin free diet from birth and the manifestation of the genetic variability will be relatively low as many HG societies show ----->Continued

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:45 PM

@Shari/Rose - The fact that I cannot tolerate crap that my brother can means I was dealt an inferior hand at birth. But you cannot conclude that therefore my diet was not the cause of being overweight. If I had avoided the toxins (which my brother could/can tolerate with respect being overweight) then perhaps I would not have struggled my whole life. I can cite quite a bit of evidence regarding this when relating to HG studies for example with the Kitavans. Eat a toxin free diet from birth and the manifestation of the genetic variability will be relatively low as many HG societies show...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:44 PM

@Shari/Rose - The fact that I cannot tolerate crap that my brother can means I was dealt an inferior hand at birth. But you cannot conclude that therefore my diet was not the cause of being overweight. If I had avoided the toxins (which my brother could/can tolerate with respect being overweight) then perhaps I would not have struggled my whole life. I can cite quite a bit of evidence regarding this when relating to HG studies for example with the Kitivans. Eat a toxin free diet from birth and the manifestation of the genetic variability will be relatively low. Eat a toxin rich diet and.....

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:41 PM

@Shari/Rose - Tolerance to neolithic toxins is highly variable amongst siblings to state the obvious. My brother and I grew up on the same diet also and if anything, his diet as an adult is much shittier than mine, yet he is rail thin and I have struggled with being a bit overweight my entire life. Of course there is more than diet, but I still draw a different conclusion than perhaps what is being suggested here. This gets back to what caused obesity vs. the remediation once obese. I respectfully submit that these two related but distinct topics are being blurred. ---->Continued

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · July 27, 2011 at 11:35 PM

After you lick weight loss you need to add back carbs.....also true if you are working out more.......but you need to follow it with a glucometer. It's a great way to hack your liver and cortisol responses

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · July 27, 2011 at 11:33 PM

Jack you just described nutriepigenomics in a nice way. Plus one

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 11:31 PM

Shari, I agree. I've got four generations of obese women behind me, too, on both my birth mother's and father's side. And I was raised by a woman who ate healthy European-style food, not the SAD. Lots of potatoes and bread, but not junk food. And eating like that, she never put on weight, but I did.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:31 PM

@Shari - +1, but....I'm struggling with reconciling "ate a very healthy albeit conventional diet", with "But NO crap at all". My visceral reaction is that this is a contradiction in terms, but I don't want to jump to any hasty conclusions. I have some personal experience with this that I want to share too but firstly I want to understand yours. Thanks and I hope you saw my "home-video" response to your airplane comment :-)

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 9:36 PM

+1 from the crazy dude in a straight jacket

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc
15966 · July 27, 2011 at 9:17 PM

thats a darn good, well-written answer. i concur

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4
9647 · July 27, 2011 at 9:05 PM

I was just about to put up a link to that thread also, Rose.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 8:33 PM

Jack, Ambimorph is another PHer with an interest in this issue, and she's got a much better head for biochem than I do. She addressed the issue of gluconeogenesis and whether it stresses the body here in this thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/25449/why-do-people-consider-ketosis-stressful-to-the-body/26332#26332

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad
56596 · July 27, 2011 at 8:25 PM

I definitely lost all the weight I lost on VLC. But since not being VLC I've not gained. Interesting.

Thumbnail avatar
10134 · July 27, 2011 at 8:23 PM

For me the ratio was irrelevant past a certain BMI level. I had to get the last 25 pounds of loss almost entirely with increased activity. And I had to stay hungry.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5
18397 · July 27, 2011 at 7:22 PM

Rose - yes that's true about gluconeogenesis, but is it optimal long term? That's been a hot question that many have wrestled with for a while. The body will do whatever it needs to do, but if you can eat a sweet potato to meet the glucose requirements, why not do that instead if requiring the conversion? For someone like me who works out regularly, I would be asking a lot of my body to always convert instead of just keeping my glycogen levels satisfied with some benign starch and some berries.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6
231 · July 27, 2011 at 6:49 PM

150g is hard to reach though! Even if I eat an entire sweet potato a day, I barely break 100g if at all.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 5:58 PM

Jack, as someone who stalled on two years clean VLC (<20g/day), but lost the rest of my weight (which is to say, most of it) on ZC/all-meat (<3g/day), I'd agree that it's probably not the carbohydrates per se that prompt the weight loss. I still don't know exactly why I had such amazing results from such a (relatively) small drop in carb intake; I suspect some of us may be extremely sensitive to plant lectins.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 5:52 PM

@Cliff: The body's glucose requirements can be fully satisfied by gluconeogenesis. It's not necessary to supply that glucose through dietary carbohydrate. You many want to, but you don't *need* to.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4
9647 · July 27, 2011 at 5:35 PM

Oh, I didn't see that last comment of yours, Annie. Looks like what I said kind of applies though.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4
9647 · July 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM

You can get the expanded version of what Cliff is saying (which is good) if you read the opening sections of the Jaminets' Perfect Health Diet (also just a helpful book in general). They spell out all the body's needs, with numbers of grams, in order to get to their conclusion. By the way I eat about 75-100g a day which feels optimal to me; spares my body the ketosis and I would guess that protein is making up for some of the difference between the 75-100 and the 150. 150 is excessive for me unless I'm working out a lot.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:28 PM

Wow, I just replied to Ryan that I would gain tons of weight with that many carbs. Do you think just being out of ketosis is a good start?

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:26 PM

Thank you Ryan, but if I ate that many carbs, I would gain an enormous amount of weight. That is why I am looking more for ratios.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 27, 2011 at 5:23 PM

Well your brain and body use about 150g daily + what ever you need for activity level so at least 150g daily is a good start. On days you workout an additional 100-200g would probably be beneficial, depending on what you do.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6
231 · July 27, 2011 at 5:23 PM

I'd just use Sisson's guideline, and keep carbs under 150g per day. Otherwise, ratios don't really scream "natural" to me. Eat meat, eat veggies, have some fruit in moderation.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:11 PM

Would it be safe to say that eating enough carbs to stay out of ketosis is a good start?

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:10 PM

Thank you Jack, that was very helpful.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:08 PM

Thanks Cliff. And how do I know how many carbs I need for brain function and activity level?

Total Views
1.6K

Recent Activity
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

Last Activity
30D AGO

Followers
0

Get Free Paleo Recipes Instantly

6 Answers

best answer

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
8
24271 · July 27, 2011 at 11:25 PM

Oh girl you are singing my song! It's an adjustment for sure. What I would suggest is doing an Atkins style ramp up adding 5-10g/day each week and watching the scale and noting how you feel. For me I can maintain at around 75g but more than that and I will start to gain. Still, that's a smorgasbord of carbs when you've eaten LC/VLC for a while. I also have to watch calories. I know that's blasphemy around here but it's just how it has to be for me. You may notice that your calories come down naturally as your carbs go up. It seems I tend to cut back on fat and protein when I'm doing my 75g carbs. It just kind of happens. And remember if you gain a couple you can go back to your VLC for a few days and it will go away. The key is not to let it get out of hand. You really have to stay on top of it for a while and then it will become like second nature for you. You're gonna do great!

I have to disagree that LC wouldn't be needed but for a lifetime of SAD eating. I think genetics plays a HUGE role in it. I ate exactly the same as my brother and sister and neither of them were overweight. We actually ate a very healthy albeit conventional diet. But NO crap at all. I don't think the diet during my formative years is to blame for me getting to over 300 lbs. I really don't. I come from a long line of morbidly obese women on my mother's side. It's not all diet. That just can't explain everything to my mind.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a
1074 · April 09, 2013 at 5:25 AM

late reply but I no longer eat any fructose (even in minute quantities, in vegs/fruits). I only eat fat/protein from meat/eggs + white rice and potatoes/asian yams (low in fruc). I believe fructose and fructans is the key to weight gain/loss. those with a long line of morbid obesity are prob extremely sensitive to fructose. my mom's line is like that although I'm a guy

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · November 07, 2011 at 4:05 PM

Carbs only cause me to overeat if they mess with my blood glucose levels. First of all congrats Asiangrok on your success with more carbs. Perhaps you've just found a good combo of macros that work well for your body? Some people, like me, feel less hungry with more volume of food so in that way I certainly can feel less hungry with more carbs although they have to be fibrous. My problem is that while I'm less hungry with more carbs and I can't lose weight at that level. Can maintain but not lose. Not sure in your case but think it's great you found what works for you.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a
1074 · November 07, 2011 at 8:17 AM

I have added back more carbs up to 100g/day, after doing LC for a few months. My appetite actually did drop...why would that happen?? I've always been led to believe carbs cause me to overeat. I think I'm leptin sensitive, in which case carbs boost leptin more per cal than protein/fat.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · July 28, 2011 at 5:06 AM

Get your mind out of the gutter. Well I hope you are able to make it. I'm in a bit of chaos as well and had the fleeting thought of passing but I've been looking forward to this for months so I'm just getting on a plane and getting the heck out of town. I'll clean up the mess when I get back.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 28, 2011 at 3:38 AM

Going down...I'm intrigued. I might just have to throw the fight if that's the case. Regarding my attendance, not a done deal yet. Work/life chaos is being sorted out.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · July 28, 2011 at 3:25 AM

I wish you could too Rose. Aravind's going down! Of course I can't handle alcohol at all so I may pass out before I smash him into the ground (figuratively speaking of course.) Aravind is it in question whether you're going or not? I thought it was a done deal?

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 28, 2011 at 3:13 AM

Shari and Aravind, I hope you get to have that discussion over a glass or three. Sure wish I could be there, too. :)

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 2:57 AM

Thank you Shari, this is an excellent suggestion. I will add just a few carbs at a time and eat only enough to prevent weight gain.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 28, 2011 at 12:40 AM

I could write a novel and as you've seen, sometimes I do here on PH. However this will be a great discussion face to face assuming I still attend AHS. I think this can be a healthy, respectful debate over a glass of Paleo approved vino...ok maybe a couple bottles, not just 1 glass.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
24271 · July 28, 2011 at 12:32 AM

Aravind, lol. Oye. Yes I did see your video response. That was hysterical but I can't imagine that actually happening. OMG. As far as what we ate there were fresh veggies and fruit at every meal. We got to eat a cookie once a week. Oatmeal for breakfast. Nuts and fruit for snacks. Maybe some popcorn for a treat. There was a couple of cans of Campbells soup in the pantry and some oils that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole now. But relatively speaking we did pretty well. You can try to change my mind but it would take a lot. Epigenetics might play a part but not the major IMO.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:51 PM

Eat a toxin rich diet and then the genetic hand you were dealt may lead to huge variability even amongst siblings. Now once we are overweight, the path of remediation (e.g. LC vs LF, etc) IS A VERY DIFFERENT TOPIC.....Ok, I gotta go feed my daughter dinner. I'll be back though...consider yourselves warned!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Eat a toxin rich diet and then the genetic hand you were dealt may lead to huge variability even amongst siblings. Now once we are overweight, the path of remediation (e.g. LC vs LF, etc) is a different issue.....Ok, I gotta go feed my daughter dinner. I'll be back though...consider yourselves warned!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Eat a toxin rich diet and then the genetic hand you were dealt may lead to huge variability even amongst siblings. Now once we are overweight, the path of remediation (e.g. LC vs LF, etc) is a different issue.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:46 PM

@Shari/Rose - The fact that I cannot tolerate crap that my brother can means I was dealt an inferior hand at birth. But you cannot conclude that therefore my diet was not the cause of being overweight. If I had avoided the toxins (which my brother could/can tolerate with respect being overweight) then perhaps I would not have struggled my whole life. I can cite quite a bit of evidence regarding this when relating to HG studies. Eat a toxin free diet from birth and the manifestation of the genetic variability will be relatively low as many HG societies show ----->Continued

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:45 PM

@Shari/Rose - The fact that I cannot tolerate crap that my brother can means I was dealt an inferior hand at birth. But you cannot conclude that therefore my diet was not the cause of being overweight. If I had avoided the toxins (which my brother could/can tolerate with respect being overweight) then perhaps I would not have struggled my whole life. I can cite quite a bit of evidence regarding this when relating to HG studies for example with the Kitavans. Eat a toxin free diet from birth and the manifestation of the genetic variability will be relatively low as many HG societies show...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:44 PM

@Shari/Rose - The fact that I cannot tolerate crap that my brother can means I was dealt an inferior hand at birth. But you cannot conclude that therefore my diet was not the cause of being overweight. If I had avoided the toxins (which my brother could/can tolerate with respect being overweight) then perhaps I would not have struggled my whole life. I can cite quite a bit of evidence regarding this when relating to HG studies for example with the Kitivans. Eat a toxin free diet from birth and the manifestation of the genetic variability will be relatively low. Eat a toxin rich diet and.....

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:41 PM

@Shari/Rose - Tolerance to neolithic toxins is highly variable amongst siblings to state the obvious. My brother and I grew up on the same diet also and if anything, his diet as an adult is much shittier than mine, yet he is rail thin and I have struggled with being a bit overweight my entire life. Of course there is more than diet, but I still draw a different conclusion than perhaps what is being suggested here. This gets back to what caused obesity vs. the remediation once obese. I respectfully submit that these two related but distinct topics are being blurred. ---->Continued

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 11:31 PM

Shari, I agree. I've got four generations of obese women behind me, too, on both my birth mother's and father's side. And I was raised by a woman who ate healthy European-style food, not the SAD. Lots of potatoes and bread, but not junk food. And eating like that, she never put on weight, but I did.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 11:31 PM

@Shari - +1, but....I'm struggling with reconciling "ate a very healthy albeit conventional diet", with "But NO crap at all". My visceral reaction is that this is a contradiction in terms, but I don't want to jump to any hasty conclusions. I have some personal experience with this that I want to share too but firstly I want to understand yours. Thanks and I hope you saw my "home-video" response to your airplane comment :-)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5
10
18397 · July 27, 2011 at 5:09 PM

I think VLC/LC might not ever be necessary to any human so long as all things, from pre-birth to birth to growing years to adulthood, were executed as they should be with respect to health.

You allude to this in your question with the noted differences in approach when trying to lose weight versus maintaining once "healthy".

The problem that many people face is that they have jacked up their metabolism so badly with SAD or some other silly way of eating in modern day that just to get to ground zero can be a confusing and frustrating process, and some never make it all the way to their desired goal.

I believe that VLC/LC can work wonders for people who need to lose weight and/or correct some other ailments/conditions as a result of poor diet. I'm not 100% certain that the VLC [per se] is what causes weight loss. It probably highly contributes, but also I think when the average eater goes VLC or LC, that means they must, by default, cut out all kinds of crap, like cakes, pizza, breads, crackers, chips, tortillas, sweets, sugary drinks, etc etc.

I think everyone can use a different ratio and tweek it as they see fit, but I currently do about 50F/30C/20P with most fat as saturated and some mono, most carbs as starch and some berries and protein from meats, eggs and dairy. But I'm kinda right in the middle of tweeking to figure out what works best for me personally because I have some question marks with my methods thus far that I need to get figured out.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · July 27, 2011 at 11:33 PM

Jack you just described nutriepigenomics in a nice way. Plus one

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
13682 · July 27, 2011 at 9:36 PM

+1 from the crazy dude in a straight jacket

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc
15966 · July 27, 2011 at 9:17 PM

thats a darn good, well-written answer. i concur

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 5:58 PM

Jack, as someone who stalled on two years clean VLC (<20g/day), but lost the rest of my weight (which is to say, most of it) on ZC/all-meat (<3g/day), I'd agree that it's probably not the carbohydrates per se that prompt the weight loss. I still don't know exactly why I had such amazing results from such a (relatively) small drop in carb intake; I suspect some of us may be extremely sensitive to plant lectins.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:10 PM

Thank you Jack, that was very helpful.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107
8
15583 · July 27, 2011 at 8:12 PM

In order to maintain optimal health I would suggest the Optimal Diet guidelines (discussed over at Hyperlipid unsystematically, in various places. The idea is to: eat sufficient protein (i.e. just enough protein to meet your needs for repair, none in excess), enough carbs to fuel the few areas of the brain that can't run on ketones (which is about half the amount of protein you need) and all the rest from fat.

The rationale for limiting protein to that amount is pretty obvious: meets your needs without the metabolic stress of breaking it down in the liver for glucose and unduly stimulating IGF-1, MTOR etc, which are linked to cancer. The idea of the minimal carbs is to avoid the stress of having to generate the few necessary carbs from protein (ingested or your muscle tissue) and reduce cortisol, with the presumption that getting most of your energy needs from fat is preferable to using glucose (for well rehearsed, contested LC reasons). This ratio is supposed to leave you on the edge of ketosis, if I recall correctly, Jan Kwasniewski doesn't think that long term ketosis (or the heightened cortisol that accompanies it) is a good thing.

Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a
1074 · November 07, 2011 at 8:20 AM

so confusing. lol

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107
15583 · July 28, 2011 at 6:26 AM

@The Quilt. Is the claim i) that you should go even lower carb while losing weight, ii) that you should go higher carb after you've lost weight or iii) the amount of carbs should be determined by measuring your blood sugar?

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 2:59 AM

Quilt-thank you for your input, I was hoping to hear your thoughts. I will check out the glucometer, not sure what that is.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 2:58 AM

Thank you David, that was very helpful.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · July 27, 2011 at 11:35 PM

After you lick weight loss you need to add back carbs.....also true if you are working out more.......but you need to follow it with a glucometer. It's a great way to hack your liver and cortisol responses

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
8
12847 · July 27, 2011 at 5:06 PM

Just like you said it is highly individualized, there is no one macronutrient ratio that you can prescribe for the majority of people. There probably isn't even an ideal macro-nutrient ratio period tbh, individual needs change day to day and maybe some days you need more fat, carbs or protien versus other days.

A good guideline is to eat as many carbs and protien as you need for brain function/activity level and fill the rest of your calories with fat. This should yield good results for just about anyone imo.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1
18671 · July 29, 2011 at 6:46 PM

I'm coming in late, here, but I just wanted to add that I don't personally worry about long-term effects of ketosis. There have been cultures that thrived on it, and anecdotally, I'm not showing any signs of ill health. I do agree with Rose, though, that you might as well eat as much carbohydrate as your body tolerates. What that amount is for you is an empirical matter.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 3:16 PM

I drink orange juice too. Yesterday I had half a gallon in one meal after a 4 hour surf session.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 3:15 PM

I eat pretty much any carb source that agrees with me, right now that's white potatoes and white rice but I'm thinking about trying out sweet potatoes for awhile. Sweet potatoes, brussel sprouts, cabbage and broccoli all have a significant amount of oxalates and those are correlated with joint pain so maybe something to think about.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 3:07 PM

Congratulations and holy shit, Cliff! Forget about what carbs *I* added back in; which ones are *you* eating, at 600+ grams a day w/o weight gain? To answer your question seriously, for me it was one sweet potato to start it off at Thanksgiving, and then brussels sprouts, cabbage, or broccoli daily. Pretty much the veggies I ate when I was VLC. I've speculated that for me it's a combo of insulin + extraordinary sensitivity to plant lectins (b/c of the joint pain). Plus I've got 4 generations of obese women on both sides -- folks who were fat long before the current epidemic.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 2:44 PM

Also just to let you know I've been very obese and I lost it all and now eat 600+ grams of carbs daily with no fat gains ever.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 2:43 PM

You comment about athletic folks is pretty ironic imo because I find its the opposite and its the people who used to be unhealthy and overweight who are a little too enthusiastic about VLC.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 2:41 PM

What are the carb sources you added back in? The 15 pounds could easily all be water and glycogen. "dropped to the high 140s on ZC. I'm pretty sure that wasn't all water" It probably wasn't and I never alluded to that. =

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 1:34 PM

Or, take a look at a review of isoenergetic diets -- VLC/KDs come out pretty far ahead for weight loss, with no significant change in glucagon (!), but a drop in circulating insulin in the VLC subjects: http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v12/n11s/full/oby2004276a.html

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 1:19 PM

Didn't mean that as harsh as it sounded. I appreciate the counsel, but I think a lot of young, non-female athletic folks are a little too enthusiastic about carbs for *everyone.* Those of us with many (many!) years of experience battling obesity have had to find out the hard truth on our own. Although cutting carbs sure beats the hell out of dropping to 500 cals/day (the only other way I've ever lost weight.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 1:16 PM

Cliff, I stalled at 190 for two years on VLC, and dropped to the high 140s on ZC. I'm pretty sure that wasn't all water. And six weeks of carbs added back in led to 15+ pounds of weight gain. You can call it water if you want, but I gotta live in this body. Also, the part about the joint pain isn't minor.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 29, 2011 at 1:03 PM

@rose-you realize rapid gains with carbs are most likely water and glycogen? @annie- Why do you think you would gain weight with that many carbs?

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 5:05 AM

...had any trouble on VLC yet, I'm betting you won't have trouble on VLC in the future. But to be sure, why not try what I did? A trial run of, say, four weeks of Paleo-approved carbstuffs, added back in small quantities, and see what happens? If your scale, your energy level, and your peace of mind survive, then you can keep it up. Otherwise, back to VLC, no long-term harm done. (I don't remember if I said it in this thread already, but oh well. Barring NADs, I think people should eat as broadly as their bodies let them; variety makes nutritional sense.)

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 29, 2011 at 5:00 AM

Phew. I thought I was going to have to crack a textbook. My honest opinion is that if a way of eating is unhealthy for you, you'll know it pretty quickly (that's with the understanding that you're eating fairly clean, non-neolithic foods, regardless of macro ratios). The couple times I've tried adding veggies and yams into my ZC woe, I've had rapid weight gain and return of joint pain within weeks. OTOH, Ben had receding gums on ZC within a few weeks. It seems totally likely to me that we have individual "best" plans, depending on genetics, history, etc. In other words, if you haven't...

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 29, 2011 at 4:33 AM

Thanks Rose, still just can't quite figure out if VLC (long term) is healthy or unhealthy. Should I add carbs, should I just stay with what's working, or ???

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 28, 2011 at 7:39 PM

Annie, I'm not the brightest bulb when it comes to deep biochemistry, but I'll give it a shot anyway: What's confusing you? Maybe I can help. Or make it worse. ;D

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:07 AM

A little more confused now after reading that thread on gluconeogenesis.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:05 AM

Thanks Rose and Paul, for your input. I am definitely looking for enough carbs for optimal health, not too many, not too few, and the least stress on my body.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4
9647 · July 27, 2011 at 9:05 PM

I was just about to put up a link to that thread also, Rose.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 8:33 PM

Jack, Ambimorph is another PHer with an interest in this issue, and she's got a much better head for biochem than I do. She addressed the issue of gluconeogenesis and whether it stresses the body here in this thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/25449/why-do-people-consider-ketosis-stressful-to-the-body/26332#26332

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5
18397 · July 27, 2011 at 7:22 PM

Rose - yes that's true about gluconeogenesis, but is it optimal long term? That's been a hot question that many have wrestled with for a while. The body will do whatever it needs to do, but if you can eat a sweet potato to meet the glucose requirements, why not do that instead if requiring the conversion? For someone like me who works out regularly, I would be asking a lot of my body to always convert instead of just keeping my glycogen levels satisfied with some benign starch and some berries.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
11986 · July 27, 2011 at 5:52 PM

@Cliff: The body's glucose requirements can be fully satisfied by gluconeogenesis. It's not necessary to supply that glucose through dietary carbohydrate. You many want to, but you don't *need* to.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4
9647 · July 27, 2011 at 5:35 PM

Oh, I didn't see that last comment of yours, Annie. Looks like what I said kind of applies though.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4
9647 · July 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM

You can get the expanded version of what Cliff is saying (which is good) if you read the opening sections of the Jaminets' Perfect Health Diet (also just a helpful book in general). They spell out all the body's needs, with numbers of grams, in order to get to their conclusion. By the way I eat about 75-100g a day which feels optimal to me; spares my body the ketosis and I would guess that protein is making up for some of the difference between the 75-100 and the 150. 150 is excessive for me unless I'm working out a lot.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:28 PM

Wow, I just replied to Ryan that I would gain tons of weight with that many carbs. Do you think just being out of ketosis is a good start?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c
12847 · July 27, 2011 at 5:23 PM

Well your brain and body use about 150g daily + what ever you need for activity level so at least 150g daily is a good start. On days you workout an additional 100-200g would probably be beneficial, depending on what you do.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:11 PM

Would it be safe to say that eating enough carbs to stay out of ketosis is a good start?

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 27, 2011 at 5:08 PM

Thanks Cliff. And how do I know how many carbs I need for brain function and activity level?

B14dc4aa1ddefbec3bc09550428ee493
2
3904 · July 28, 2011 at 3:12 PM

For those of us with messed up metabolisms who need to lose weight I think low carb is absolutely essential to regaining our health and losing weight. Paleo man would have naturally cycled between periods of low and high carb intake and it's our chronically high intake of high glycemic carbs that has gotten us into this mess. Eating low carb is what reverses it. I do think that people who have not reached this point can probably just take out the grains, eat lots of carbs and be fine. If you're insulin resistant, like so many of us are, I do believe you need to go low carb though.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:34 PM

Than you Mr. Turkey.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f
1
20353 · July 28, 2011 at 4:58 AM

I like protein three meals a day. With each meal having a vegetable. However this only works for me longterm if I can add in some fat such as butter to each meal. In that case I do much better than if I go without the butter. I am alergic to coconut or I would do that instead...

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0
3946 · July 28, 2011 at 3:35 PM

Thank you Eric.

Answer Question

Login to Your PaleoHacks Account