A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0

Calorie counting Paleo and using maths rather than just eating on instinct.

by (15)
Updated April 05, 2014 at 6:52 PM
Created April 04, 2014 at 2:12 PM

OK, I want to have one last thread on a basic topic that I feel is being attacked for no reason and not being engaged.

Disclaimer, I am not saying paleo is unhealthy or you should not do it, I am saying too much of anything makes you fat. If you too support this basic premise you are supporting IIFYM.

If you support basic scientific fact that calories in v out equals weight gain v weight loss you support IIFYM.

You can have different macros, you can be ketogenic, you can be low carb, be zone, be a 35/35/30 follower, you can even have loose macros, just follow a basic calorie goal depending on what you are trying to achieve while hitting micronutrients and protein targets, or even fat targets.

IIFYM is basically saying this. There is no such thing as a clean food and a dirty food, but rather healthy or unhealthy dietary lifestyles. If I eat grassed beef, organic eggs, lots of fresh vegetables but everyday I use up 350 calories of my 2800 calories a day on some pop tarts am I unhealthy?

How does that 350 calories or so from non nutrient dense pleasure foods make any difference, it is not impacting my weightless or gain while at a 10% deficit or surplus and it lets me enjoy food i like or go for a drink with buddies or whatever and I am still having to get the vast majority of my food from fresh wholesome food in order to hit my vitamin RDA, my mineral RDA, my protein and fats %

I really want to talk about this because I feel like the paleo community and even the cross fit community brought a lot of good stuff back and like IIFYM guys they stress not eating nutrient deficient diets, they stress fat phobia is a myth and fat is just a micronutrient and can not make you fat. Rather it is essential.

I want to hear either people say yes of course basic maths and science, calculating calories and using maths to know you will or won't lose fat/ gain mass is good. Or give reasons why it is not. Just saying agh you know fad diet whatever is not an answer.

Again you can't just eat twinkies doing this. You have to hit every vitamin and mineral, every macro, do not miss calories, your diet will consist mainly of whole nutrient dense foods. On average people doing a 2800kcal a day diet on IIFYM will only be able to fit in about 250-500kcal from nutrient sparse pleasure foods.

For a very rough example

breakfast

coffee - TBS coconut oil

fast till lunch

Lunch - large steak oven cooked with a sweet potato, grassed butter, broccoli, leeks, onions, garlic and lots of spinach

Preworkout snack - banana

postworkout snack - whey protein with grassfed full fat milk

Dinner - salmon with a creamy sauce, lots of mixed vegetables, baby potatoes

Snack - 300 calories of ben and jerries ice-cream curled up with the wife/husband or with the kids watching a film.

How did that become unhealthy?

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
0 · April 05, 2014 at 6:52 PM

Many people CAN'T stop at one slice! That is why people are FAT - because they can't stop eating high reward food!!!! The lack of nutrient density in a diet overtaken with hyper palatable foods leaves them with no energy, which makes them sedentary, which throws off the whole "calorie in calorie out" equation. I mean really - if it was THAT easy everyone would be thin. Say whaT? Oh no answer? Yeah that's what I thought.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
0 · April 05, 2014 at 6:48 PM

And as for binging, I believe that is because "paleo" has become misidentified as a way to lose weight quickly, drawing in a number of very young kids with eating disorders who are looking to get thin - they will binge. Anyone who is looking to paleo only as a way to lose weight will binge. It isn't enough. People on calorie restricted diets binge. Binging is an eating disorder, not a side effect of paleo. Do you think only paleo eaters binge? Most bulemics are focused totally on calorie in calorie out - it is part of the accounting that the disease forces you into.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
0 · April 05, 2014 at 6:41 PM

Then please explain why are most people in this country, which is obsessed with calorie restricting diets, fat? What is your answer? Because the diet you are talking about is WEIGHT WATCHERS for god's sake! Oh, what? Yes, I hear the crickets. You don't respond when people bring up this aspect of your argument. Calorie restriction is but ONE PART of health and vitality. You seem to be completely stuck here. If calorie restriction worked, the diet industry would not exist. It is simply too difficult to eat high-reward foods with restraint over time.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 05, 2014 at 10:04 AM

Just thinking about Jared, the Twinkie guy and the McD guy it occurred to me that they succeeded because the whole world was watching. That's how Weight Watchers and Biggest Loser work too. Peer pressure (or money, or fame). Paleo is a personal thing which works without the props.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
0 · April 05, 2014 at 1:56 AM

You know what is REALLY unhealthy? Your strange obsession with having people agree with you on this point. I mean seriously, why should we take up this debate with you? You are probably a fat 17 yo boy from Northern England who spends too much time on the computer fighting with people. Why should I spend time scouring the internet to line up links so that you can nanny nanny boo boo those (which you will, of course). What you are trying to get us to agree with is so basic it is beyond DUH - we are dealing with a different set of guiding principles. Please get that!

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 05, 2014 at 1:53 AM

If you're on a ketogenic Primal diet, 2 slices of bread would bring you out of ketosis. So, you wouldn't be able to do 90% there unless you were ok with feeling 10% worse. (Which might be fine for some.)

Trying to eat that bread toward your macros (wasting all your room for micros to stay ketogenic), you would soon find yourself malnourished. Lack of selenium for instance, has killed people who were keto and not eating nutritious foods.

It's a compromise eating more of the foods that are better for you / preparing foods that taste better, but it's worthwhile / enjoyable.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 05, 2014 at 1:50 AM

If you're in ketosis, two slices of bread will bring you out. If you like the way your brain and body feels with that metabolic advantage, no, you can't do 90% junk unless you want to feel 10% worse.

If you eat that bread and try to stay in ketosis, your nutrition will directly suffer. Selenium for instance, has killed people who were in ketosis but did not get adequate nutrition.

It's a compromise to eat more of the foods that are good for you and less of the stuff with weird things in it, but we do it because it feels awesome and it's worthwhile / fun.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7
0 · April 05, 2014 at 1:21 AM

Still waiting for the science behind those "maths"

141c6b3d5e9506dd93881e3f9737f297
0 · April 04, 2014 at 10:46 PM

i only ate pizza when i was really pissed (drunk)

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 10:31 PM

Yeah dude of course, along as you hit macros/micros.

01f49b2c56fcbd16b030f36340f0487a
0 · April 04, 2014 at 10:25 PM

can you 'be' paleo and be (do?) iifym ManchesterPaleo?

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb
0 · April 04, 2014 at 10:07 PM

anyone else here never heard of IIFYM till the other day?...i had to google it after seeing the iifym acronym used in MP's question from yesterday.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:54 PM

If you can avoid pizza altogether you can stop at one slice. :) Oh and thin crust FTW!!!

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:53 PM

All weight loss is based on calorie restriction. That is the only way to lose fat.

And actually flexible dieting aka iifym is way way easier to stick to because you keep your sanity being able to fit a slice of pixxa or two beers or whatever in while dieting and losing weight / gaining mass.

Most paleo dieters binge, because they can't stand the severe calorie restriction. Just look at all the help me I binged threads on this site

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:51 PM

Still no way to rebuke that basic scientific fact?

Its like your whole self worth is tied to being against a food source haha.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:50 PM

Oh I have the prefect idea!

Twinkies! Now fortified with all essential vitamins and minerals, plus whey protein.

You're funny troll. Go back to Weight Watchers now, they miss you over there.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:43 PM

"No food source, grains, butter, red meat, fish, sugar, processed meat, beer etc is unhealthy." - ManchesterPaleo.

I don't know what's funnier, the shit you say or the irony of your username, lol.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:41 PM

By your logic, everybody would be thin. People who eat these hyper-palatable foods almost ALWAYS eventually overeat and go outside of a normal caloric range because these foods make you eat MORE OF THEM. 300 cals of pizza is 1/2 a slice at the pizza place down the street from me!!! 300 cals of ice cream is a ping pong ball size - again ... portion control in the face of hyper palatable processed food is EXTREMELY HARD which is why the diets based on caloric restriction don't work over time....

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:36 PM

IIFYM is not about weight loss. It is about weight loss, gain, maintenance, health, consuming vitamins and finer and just being prepared and flexible.

Why don't you get a basic premise? Also IIFYM has nothing to do with SAD and SAD and Paleo are both unhealthy if you eat in excess and don't eat the right array of vitamins and minerals. No food source, grains, butter, red meat, fish, sugar, processed meat, beer etc is unhealthy. It is about the lifestyle the particular food is a part of.

141c6b3d5e9506dd93881e3f9737f297
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:33 PM

that's what i was thinking.

in the days i use to eat pizza (years ago now), it was more like 1 pizza, not 1 slice. there's no way i could have stopped at 1 slice.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:33 PM

Sugar is healthy, fat is healthy, sugar is unhealthy, fat is unhealthy. It is all meaningless.

Sugar in conjunction with vitamins and minerals, protein, fat, omega 3 and the right amount of calories is healthy. If you can prove otherwise please publish something credible outlining that sugar in itself is unhealthy.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:32 PM

Some of us are on paleo PRECISELY because we don't want to count our calories! I don't care if I am always losing weight - I want a plan where I can enjoy eating and maintaining a general sense of ease with my food and my life. For me, it is easier focusing on eating certain foods and avoiding others that have been proven problematic for me. so FOR ME - what you describe is unhealthy. I have no problem with a little ice cream - but I have a problem with how you are positioning your argument.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:04 PM

Pizza calculus is a whole nother subject topper. Thin crust, deep dish, Sicilian, stuffed, grocery store, or your Philly tomato pie? For one slice of average pizza 300 is about right.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:57 PM

You have no scientific facts lol.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:57 PM

Wrong :)

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:53 PM

Saying sugar is healthy is so dumb and it really makes you look bad.

141c6b3d5e9506dd93881e3f9737f297
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:50 PM

fair enough.

i was just wondering how much pizza is ~300cals...? 1 slice perhaps (depending on pizza size)

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:46 PM

I am "dogmatic and crazy" because I think doughnuts, pizza, beer, and sugar are unhealthy? Wow. You made my day :)

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:45 PM

I don't take vitamins I eat vitamins and comparing a doughnut to taking cyanide is so dumb it really makes you look bad.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:41 PM

The stupidity in your argument is that you think getting the required nutrients is all that matters. What you eat matters whether you want to believe it or not. If you eat arsenic, mercury, cyanide, aflatoxins, ricin, lead, etc. you might not gain a single pound from it but it most certainly is not healthy. Eating doughnuts or sugar is certainly not conducive to good health just like smoking cigarettes or doing meth is not good for your health, no matter how much you might try to compensate for it by taking your vitamins.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:31 PM

You really can't have much more if you are eating in a normal calorie range while having to meet micronutrient needs. If you eat more than just a bit of nutrion deficient food you won't make your macros/micros.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:28 PM

iifym IS NOT A DIET FOR THE LAST TIME, IT IS JUST USING MATHS TO REACH FAT LOSS OR MASS GAIN. The linked calculators are just free things people put up for rough calorie estimations.Sheesh!

You set your calories and thus macros at a start level, if your plan is to lose weight you adjust the calories till you start to lose weight. That has not been debunked just as the laws of gravity have not.

And the idea you, a paleo diehard posting on a paleo webs tie defending paleo are not incredibly biased in spouting this lie, the last IP address lie (LOL) and other quackery is ridiculous.

141c6b3d5e9506dd93881e3f9737f297
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:22 PM

only 300 cals of pizza...give me more >:)

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:22 PM

How bizarre to believe in scientific fact. HOW CRAZY. You are the Alex Jones of paleo.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:20 PM

This is showing how bankrupt your line of argument is. You are going on the route known as creating a logical fallacy.

You are trying to make it sound like I am advocating only eating grains and sugar. But if you bothered to investigate at all what iifym is you would know that is impossible.

For example My macros at the moment

2260kcal

35% carbs - 198g

30% protein - 170g

35% fat - 88g

Micros

VIT A - 100% RDA

VIT C - 100% RDA

VIT D - 100% RDA

VIT K - 100% RDA

FIBER - 30g

How do I get all that eating just bread and sugar?

141c6b3d5e9506dd93881e3f9737f297
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:20 PM

nothing wrong with ice cream before bed (imo), esp if you have trouble sleeping. i would recommend looking for ice creams without gums or fillers.

Haagen Dazs do a Vanilla ice cream, ingredients are; cream, skim milk, sugar, egg yolks, vanilla extract (& that's all). I'm sure they have other flavours which have similar 'clean' ingredients (check labels).

Straus (family creamery) may be another brand which have a or some good options (check labels).

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:12 PM

Man this guy is relentless. Apparently he's convinced that as long as you meet your micronutrient requirements and your calorie needs, it doesn't matter if you chug high fructose corn syrup, down a cup of Crisco shortening, munch on some doughnuts and pop a cyanide pill, it's all good as long as you "stay within you macros and calories"....bizarre guy.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84
0 · April 04, 2014 at 7:57 PM

The problem is that they're made of wheat, and wheat is anathema to the paleo diet since they contain gluten and gliadin.

You might say IIFY would work for those who follow an 80% paleo diet. You might say replace pizza, twinkies, and bread with those that are made from acceptable substitutes.

Try to understand what paleo is before pushing bread, twinkies and pizza.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84
0 · April 04, 2014 at 7:53 PM

It wasn't being taken seriously because of the way you presented it. It appeared spammy and pro-McD's, then you argued tooth an nail about it until I had to close the thread because it was getting too insane. You're welcome to try again, but please present things in a more coherent manner.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 6:06 PM

Sorry the upvoter doesn't work. Simple is best.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 6:01 PM

IIFYM is merely a counting tool. There are lots of them out there. The embedded ranges in the tool aim towards a non-paleo diet relatively high in protein. It might be useful from time to time, but you'd have to learn all the idiosyncrasies.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 5:29 PM

but you can eat pizza and beer and good nutritious food and be just as healthy as being paleo. And on IIFYM you can garuantee weight loss by using simple math, on paleo if you don't count your just guessing.

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25
0 · April 04, 2014 at 5:23 PM

eeeeeexactly

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7
0 · April 04, 2014 at 5:20 PM

Excellent point. Paleo is healthy because of the foods that it includes. And to consume those foods and meet your micro requirements you must exclude foods that are not nutrionally dense and may cause chronics inflammatory responses. Why didn't anyone figure that out beofre?

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7
0 · April 04, 2014 at 5:17 PM

it's called 80/20. Most paleo protocols allow for 20% slop.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 4:16 PM

See but we are not really disagreeing here, its the dogmatic crazy people who treat paleo like a cult in this thread I'm talking about, like @TheGastronomer

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 04, 2014 at 4:15 PM

I'm reminded of the guy who was given a taste test with a McDonalds big mac / Burger King whopper and he's like "Nah, I prefer the taste of seal meat."

When you run on modern food, I suppose you lose the taste / appreciation for the good stuff.

If I was hungry for italian pizza, I would simply eat italian pizza. With all the little Caesars and such over the years, I've kind of lost the craving for modern pizza.

Bread is good stuff, but it still tastes like pizza to me without it. Eggplant parmesan > pizza. http://i.imgur.com/j74SykU.gif

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 4:10 PM

That does not taste as good as a real slice of italian pizza, it just does not taste as good. If you like it cool, but your not eating it for the taste are you, you are eating it as a trade off. But if you eat 95 percent clean, why not have a slice of tasty doughy, fresh cheese bubbling herb wafting pizza?

It is better than fake pizza, it is perfection. Its not about wanting it or not, as I said you can eat iifym and never eat pizza, the point is scientifically one slice of pizza a day will not make you any less healthy than paleo without the 1 slice of pizza with remaining calories.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:52 PM

I've made excellent cauliflower pizzas full of nutrients. =]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3793502/

I happen to find real food tastes better than processed frakenfood / grains (ala pizza hut), myself.

I had a large piece of gouda cheese this morning. I've never been a big ice cream guy.

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:47 PM

No one cares enough to give you evidence on why is it unhealthy. Really though...we eat how we want to eat and enjoy it. Why do you care so much?

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:47 PM

Sugar is not unhealthy, please prove sugar is inherently unhealthy or just keep going

HAHAHAH I have no answer to the question omergheerdd grains OMG ha hahahahaSUGAR IS TOXIC hahahaha april fools ha haha hahaha

300 calories from pizza after a day of eating steak and veg is unhealthy? How, how does that 300 calories of pizza make that days food intake bad? HOW?

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:45 PM

Which is fine, I am asking for evidence of that being unhealthy despite getting large doses of vitamins and minerals and fat and protein from whole foods and a small percent from pleasure foods once macros and micros are hit. No once can, they just say sarcastic things.

That is the problem and why even Robb Wolf calls the people on paleo forums cultish. There is no evidence and saying just because is simply toping out. Which is fine, but just say that.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:33 PM

You don't eat the pizza for the nutrients. You eat them after you have eaten all your food, it is basically a nice treat for sanity. You can follow IIFYM and never eat anything other than strict paleo foods. However there is no scientific evidence 300 calories of ice-cream a day will somehow reverse all the other healthy food decisions you made. Infact the impact on lowering cortisol and lowering general stress levels by being able to go for a pint and fit it into your macros or have ice-cream with your child rather than dogmatically stick to meat and veg for every single calorie.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:27 PM

It's not the daily increase but daily decrease.

A single slice of bread has a higher GI than pure refined sugar, equal to 16+ baby carrots. By decreasing your twinkle / pizza intake, you will see an increase in "real food" (1600+% increase in nutrients.) Throwing the bread on top of real food only spikes your blood sugar, decreases the bioavailability of the minerals, adds synthetic nutrients which competes with the natural ones (eg. folic acid), and promotes inflammation (google "gluten".)

It's a sliding scale. Your ideal health may not be the same as another's.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:13 PM

Yes, you're right, twinkies and bread are health foods. If only they would fortify them with vitamins and minerals, then they would be the perfect food! (Sarcasm)

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:07 PM

IIFYM is a lot more sophisticated - and complex - than most people will follow. I'm talking calorie counting in the simple form, made even simpler by Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, etc. Paleo is just as simple.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 2:52 PM

Of course it guides you to fish, steak and veg etc. How else would you get vitamins and mineral goals using the calories set out? Again, it forces you to eat mostly fish, chicken, steak, veg, fruit etc because its the only way to hit the micros swell as the macros.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 2:49 PM

Both approaches have simple foundations. Paleo: avoid processed foods. Counting: create calorie deficits. Both work for weight loss and maintenance too if you stick with them. I use a hybrid of activity and diet. Paleo brings the whole foods, especially meat, and a wariness of the health problems caused by a high carb diet. But Paleo is generally agnostic on exercise. Calorie counting provides the structure needed to maintain on any food. But calorie counting is generally agnostic on nutrition, and using it successfully relies heavily on calories out. It does not guide you toward fish.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 2:20 PM

Better question. It would help if you ran both daily plans through the IFFYM program and showed us the resulting macros and micros. I don't know that anyone here uses it since paleo tends toward intuitive eating within a set of rules.

Total Views
1.1K

Recent Activity
A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39

Last Activity
163D AGO

Followers
9

Get Free Paleo Recipes Instantly

10 Answers

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0
15 · April 05, 2014 at 12:07 AM

@raydawg

I do understand what the paleo diet is, I am saying eating mainly whole food foods plus "junk" food for the remainder of your calories won't change your health or make you any less healthy than if you ate 100 percent paleo. I mean shit even Robb Wolf has stated most of the Anthropological and evolutionary science that spawned the paleo diet has been debunked and now its merely about finding what works.

most people in the world do not have gluten sensitivity or intolerance, most people following paleo lose weight because rather than eating crisps they eat meat and veg, its the calories restricted from their regular diet that results in weight loss and thus health boosts, not the removal of gluten and processed food.

It is just ridiculous people are s afraid of eating some processed food even if their diet is 90 percent meat and veg. as if a piece of toast makes or brakes health.

I don't think its a coincidence its mainly white middle class people who turn paleo and find these imagined food intolerances and that they "need to cut carbs" or that "sugar is toxic"

It is like a haute culture hypochondria syndrome. There are some very very rare cases like Robb Wolf with severe autoimmune problems, but most paleo dieters would be just as healthy counting macros and micros. For the 3 people on the planet with celiac disease, then maybe paleo template is necessary. But so is counting calories and macros if you want to do something specific like lose weight at a predetermined weight, or gain mass or gain weight, or whatever.

IIFYM is basically a word for common sense and very basic math. It is just the counter balance to pseudo science and fad dieting that says there and good and bad foods and that something like say a macronutrient or a food source can make you fat, when in reality only consuming more than your maintenance level of calories can make you fat.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 05, 2014 at 1:53 AM

If you're on a ketogenic Primal diet, 2 slices of bread would bring you out of ketosis. So, you wouldn't be able to do 90% there unless you were ok with feeling 10% worse. (Which might be fine for some.)

Trying to eat that bread toward your macros (wasting all your room for micros to stay ketogenic), you would soon find yourself malnourished. Lack of selenium for instance, has killed people who were keto and not eating nutritious foods.

It's a compromise eating more of the foods that are better for you / preparing foods that taste better, but it's worthwhile / enjoyable.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 05, 2014 at 1:50 AM

If you're in ketosis, two slices of bread will bring you out. If you like the way your brain and body feels with that metabolic advantage, no, you can't do 90% junk unless you want to feel 10% worse.

If you eat that bread and try to stay in ketosis, your nutrition will directly suffer. Selenium for instance, has killed people who were in ketosis but did not get adequate nutrition.

It's a compromise to eat more of the foods that are good for you and less of the stuff with weird things in it, but we do it because it feels awesome and it's worthwhile / fun.

618fc5298c4a96b817c4918c795a875f
0
1197 · April 04, 2014 at 9:26 PM

Omigod - what IS it with you and this repeating of this mantra over and over? You don't seem to listen to what anyone is answering. It is like your brain is stuck on a nail.

1 - Paleo isn't necessarily a weight loss diet. You are stuck on weight loss as the main reason we do this and it isn't.

2- Eating SAD is unhealthy. Processed foods full of HFCS, ultra-refined wheat products, sugar, and artificial chemicals has made every culture that has adopted the SAD sicker and ... wait for it ... fatter. These hyper-palatable processed foods and the large portions they encourage are BAD for people as they lack nutrients. The lack of nutrients leads to a lack of energy, which leads to a sedentary lifestyle.

3 - Those little tests you posted about McDonalds are small samples - who knows what this man would develop into over time given his desire to eat McDonalds - I'd wager after time he would eschew the healthy menu for the unhealthy one, because sugar and processed flour/starch works that way - you want more and more after a while. Yes, his calories are good for now eating an occasional McRib or shake, but once he slips into the diet most teenagers have - a Big Mac, fries, and a shake as an after school snack - this becomes a different story. These foods make people want more - that is precisely why they are successful businesses. Not good when trying to keep to a calorie in / calorie out model.

4 - YES, DUH - calorie deficit = weight loss. WE GET IT. But that isn't the ONLY thing when looking at total health. I want my teeth healthy, which won't happen if I am drinking my calories in sugary beverages (yet keeping them at a deficit). I want my gut to be healthy - not going to happen if I am eating ultra-refined processed wheat products throughout the day (even if I am in a caloric deficit). I want my hormones in balance - once the sugars that infiltrate most of the processed food that make up SAD hit my system, things go out of whack (even if my calories in are lower than my calories out). NONE of this has to do with weight, yet they all impact health in the biggest way.

I don't get why you are bent on asking questions and not listening to the answers people are taking the time to give you. I think you just want to be validated. I feel sorry for you that you need this desperately from other people - we will not validate you. Your obsession is not as important to most of us on this forum. Maybe it would be best for you to spend time doing something else - it would be more productive and it might make you feel better about yourself. You obviously have weight issues. Maybe you should take up a team sport, so you can exercise while simultaneously learning how to interact with others?

I just hope this is the last we hear from you on this topic - it is exhausting and, at this point, boring.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 05, 2014 at 10:04 AM

Just thinking about Jared, the Twinkie guy and the McD guy it occurred to me that they succeeded because the whole world was watching. That's how Weight Watchers and Biggest Loser work too. Peer pressure (or money, or fame). Paleo is a personal thing which works without the props.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 9:36 PM

IIFYM is not about weight loss. It is about weight loss, gain, maintenance, health, consuming vitamins and finer and just being prepared and flexible.

Why don't you get a basic premise? Also IIFYM has nothing to do with SAD and SAD and Paleo are both unhealthy if you eat in excess and don't eat the right array of vitamins and minerals. No food source, grains, butter, red meat, fish, sugar, processed meat, beer etc is unhealthy. It is about the lifestyle the particular food is a part of.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0
309 · April 04, 2014 at 6:45 PM

@ManchesterPaleo Thanks for calling me an idiot. I have to say, I like how you troll, your persistence is almost as epic as your ignorance.

"There is no evidence to say sugar is bad or grains are bad" - ManchesterPaleo.

OK great, now why don't you go eat some sugar and bread and take the "Paleo" out of ManchesterPaleo. Oh and don't forget to add a multivitamin to that sugar/bread to make it healthy. Out of all the trolls we've had on here, you're definitely the funniest one yet :)

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:20 PM

This is showing how bankrupt your line of argument is. You are going on the route known as creating a logical fallacy.

You are trying to make it sound like I am advocating only eating grains and sugar. But if you bothered to investigate at all what iifym is you would know that is impossible.

For example My macros at the moment

2260kcal

35% carbs - 198g

30% protein - 170g

35% fat - 88g

Micros

VIT A - 100% RDA

VIT C - 100% RDA

VIT D - 100% RDA

VIT K - 100% RDA

FIBER - 30g

How do I get all that eating just bread and sugar?

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7
0
25992 · April 04, 2014 at 5:15 PM

you are grossly misrepresenting IIFYM.

IIFYM is based upon "science" (which has been discreditied) to calculate your BMR and activity burn based upon a flawed WHO algorithm of using a means of means for 5 countries.

IIFYM further bastardizes their studies when they suggest that certain macro ratio works best depending on your goals (and there is no science for this either). The completely misrepresent studies and extrapolate data in ways that do not fit with the original study's intent.

No one argues the fact that you should eat an appropriate caloric load to meet your energy expenditure AND ensure that you meet micro-nutrient RDAs (which are minimums, not optimal -- but I digress) then you can maintain or loose weight (depending on your goal). We believe that eating whole foods, and avoiding processed and industrialized foods will all you do do that more easily AND also promote health.

No one is saying that you can eat 10000 calories and not gain weight on paleo. Your strawman is rejected, and you cofirmation bias is egregious.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 8:28 PM

iifym IS NOT A DIET FOR THE LAST TIME, IT IS JUST USING MATHS TO REACH FAT LOSS OR MASS GAIN. The linked calculators are just free things people put up for rough calorie estimations.Sheesh!

You set your calories and thus macros at a start level, if your plan is to lose weight you adjust the calories till you start to lose weight. That has not been debunked just as the laws of gravity have not.

And the idea you, a paleo diehard posting on a paleo webs tie defending paleo are not incredibly biased in spouting this lie, the last IP address lie (LOL) and other quackery is ridiculous.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 6:01 PM

IIFYM is merely a counting tool. There are lots of them out there. The embedded ranges in the tool aim towards a non-paleo diet relatively high in protein. It might be useful from time to time, but you'd have to learn all the idiosyncrasies.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0
15 · April 04, 2014 at 4:02 PM

@Desmond

"No one cares enough to give you evidence on why is it unhealthy. Really though...we eat how we want to eat and enjoy it. Why do you care so much?"

This is a response i received to the question, below.

"How does...filling the rest of the calories remaining in with pizza or beer or doughnuts make it not healthy?"

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

WTF? Are you serious right now? Well, why don't you go ahead and declare your love for trans-fats and sugar while you're at it. This shit better be a fucking joke or an April fool's prank or something.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Because of the ignorance and lies people like this idiot @TheGastronomer puts out there. There is no evidence to say sugar is bad or grains are bad. Telling young people trying to get healthy not to count calories and not to track their macros and that they can't eat a slice of pizza on moray after their very nutritious day of eating or they need to avoid a pop tart in the morning because that will mean the rest of the day eating lots of fruit and veg ad fresh meat is now all unhealthy leads to eating disorders, leads to the promoting of psuedoscience and ultimately is just wrong.

If you ask me why I care about not letting clear scientific fallacies gain momentum, well take it up with every scientist, nutritional or otherwise, it is called not wanting people being lied to and fear mongered.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0
309 · April 04, 2014 at 3:37 PM

"How does...filling the rest of the calories remaining in with pizza or beer or doughnuts make it not healthy?"

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

WTF? Are you serious right now? Well, why don't you go ahead and declare your love for trans-fats and sugar while you're at it. This shit better be a fucking joke or an April fool's prank or something.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:47 PM

Sugar is not unhealthy, please prove sugar is inherently unhealthy or just keep going

HAHAHAH I have no answer to the question omergheerdd grains OMG ha hahahahaSUGAR IS TOXIC hahahaha april fools ha haha hahaha

300 calories from pizza after a day of eating steak and veg is unhealthy? How, how does that 300 calories of pizza make that days food intake bad? HOW?

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25
0
2297 · April 04, 2014 at 3:37 PM

I don't think people here are worried about IIFYM...we enjoy Paleo and go with that. If you enjoy whatever it is you do, then that's great. No reason to constantly debate. Everyone is different and we all need to find what works for us.

If you are healthy...good O3:O6 ratio, vitamins/minerals, enough calories for activity, etc...then you are on the right track. If you want to have Ben & Jerry's ice cream, have it...IT'S JUST NOT PALEO. This is a PALEO site which is why that may be deemed unhealthy, etc.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 6:06 PM

Sorry the upvoter doesn't work. Simple is best.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:45 PM

Which is fine, I am asking for evidence of that being unhealthy despite getting large doses of vitamins and minerals and fat and protein from whole foods and a small percent from pleasure foods once macros and micros are hit. No once can, they just say sarcastic things.

That is the problem and why even Robb Wolf calls the people on paleo forums cultish. There is no evidence and saying just because is simply toping out. Which is fine, but just say that.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0
15 · April 04, 2014 at 3:23 PM

@TheGastronomer

You said:

"Yes, you're right, twinkies and bread are health foods. If only they would fortify them with vitamins and minerals, then they would be the perfect food! (Sarcasm)"

They don't need to be nutritious, If you do IIFYM you get your micronutrients from meat, fish, vegetables, fruit, nuts, etc. Why are you putting out straw men? How does eating mostly healthy nutrient dense food to reach your micros and macros and filling the rest of the calories remaining in with pizza or beer or doughnuts make it not healthy?

If all you have is more nonsensical snarky one liners don't bother.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84
0 · April 04, 2014 at 7:57 PM

The problem is that they're made of wheat, and wheat is anathema to the paleo diet since they contain gluten and gliadin.

You might say IIFY would work for those who follow an 80% paleo diet. You might say replace pizza, twinkies, and bread with those that are made from acceptable substitutes.

Try to understand what paleo is before pushing bread, twinkies and pizza.

5890e9f25cd201f3915ad8b9d3bbad71
0
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:17 PM

Weight is not always a good indicator of health. You can still be diabetic, malnourished, etc. when a healthy weight.

Some people eat Paleo because of health conditions and eating "not Paleo" can cause them harm because of their conditions. However, this does not apply to everyone. For "optimal" health, you could be 100% Paleo, but some people do not want to be that restrictive. I often see people recommending being at least "80% Paleo", whatever that means to the individual. Basically, eat for health most of the time, and have a treat once in a while. Just make sure you don't overdo it. You're only going to live this life once, don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

A6b302171ad297933107ec7e6abadf39
0
15 · April 04, 2014 at 2:24 PM

@thhq

Which is great, paleo definitely IS healthy. My point is merely that its healthy because you get lots of protein, lots of vitamins and mineral, good amount of fat, omega 3 etc. Not because it excludes bread, or twinkles, or pizza. Not because of what it excludes. I have seen people lose weight and get in shape on pale and people put on weight.

The weight gain or loss is all calories in v out. The paleo diet is healthy because it forces you to eat good food. But adding bread and some chocolate or beer or pizza in once i get all my vitamins and protein etc does not make it any less healthy

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7
0 · April 04, 2014 at 5:20 PM

Excellent point. Paleo is healthy because of the foods that it includes. And to consume those foods and meet your micro requirements you must exclude foods that are not nutrionally dense and may cause chronics inflammatory responses. Why didn't anyone figure that out beofre?

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:27 PM

It's not the daily increase but daily decrease.

A single slice of bread has a higher GI than pure refined sugar, equal to 16+ baby carrots. By decreasing your twinkle / pizza intake, you will see an increase in "real food" (1600+% increase in nutrients.) Throwing the bread on top of real food only spikes your blood sugar, decreases the bioavailability of the minerals, adds synthetic nutrients which competes with the natural ones (eg. folic acid), and promotes inflammation (google "gluten".)

It's a sliding scale. Your ideal health may not be the same as another's.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:13 PM

Yes, you're right, twinkies and bread are health foods. If only they would fortify them with vitamins and minerals, then they would be the perfect food! (Sarcasm)

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 3:07 PM

IIFYM is a lot more sophisticated - and complex - than most people will follow. I'm talking calorie counting in the simple form, made even simpler by Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, etc. Paleo is just as simple.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · April 04, 2014 at 2:49 PM

Both approaches have simple foundations. Paleo: avoid processed foods. Counting: create calorie deficits. Both work for weight loss and maintenance too if you stick with them. I use a hybrid of activity and diet. Paleo brings the whole foods, especially meat, and a wariness of the health problems caused by a high carb diet. But Paleo is generally agnostic on exercise. Calorie counting provides the structure needed to maintain on any food. But calorie counting is generally agnostic on nutrition, and using it successfully relies heavily on calories out. It does not guide you toward fish.

Answer Question

Login to Your PaleoHacks Account