Recovery pattern

by (15380) Updated May 16, 2013 at 6:45 PM Created May 13, 2013 at 10:09 AM

Yet another crazy question from me but I hope you are used to them by now so here it goes...

I am currently undergoing treatment for dysbiosis. So I have noticed this pattern:

When I start a new medicine (like a prebiotic or a probiotic of some kind) the first week I get really really sick - fatigued to the point of doing nothing but sleeping all the time.

Then on the fifth or sixth day my fatigue is miraculously better.

Also, in terms of my food intake - when I eat "clean" Paleo (mostly soups with vegetables and meat) I feel much worse, but when I eat something loaded with carbs, I feel much better.

My only guess is when I eat clean, my herx reaction is worse. But shouldn't the herx reaction end at the end of the week?

Have you treated your gut dysbiosis successfully? What was your reaction to probiotics? When you eat "forbidden" foods, how does your body react?


I was incorrect about bread and dairy. It was something else, because bread is making me sick. I guess it was just a temporary thing - probably from probiotics.

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1600 · May 15, 2013 at 1:19 PM

This sounds similar to you, from perfecthealthdiet.com, talking about C. Pneumoniae treatment:

**First, as a general rule, the sicker a patient is, the slower they should go. This is why our early protocol started out with only one antibiotic and one dose, and then gradually adding the next dose/antibiotic as the reactions to each dose/antibiotic became apparent. These reactions appear to be caused by destruction of Chlamydia organisms as well as by the death of some of the infected host cells

The reaction to anti-chlamydial therapy is sometimes referred to as “die-off” as presumable both chlamydial organisms and host cells are dying. These reactions can be delayed by days to weeks and may include “flu-like symptoms”, arthralgias and myalgias, “hangover-like symptoms (“brain-fog”, nausea, malaise), gastroenteritis (including diarrhea), and (rarely) fever.

Simply introducing diet and nutrition alone can lead to significant die-off effects. This shows that the adoption of diet and nutritional supplements is therapeutic in its own right.

On a bad diet, antibiotics are dangerous, as they risk gut dysbiosis and introduction of new co-infections.

It is necessary to be patient and to balance speed of killing pathogens against allowing the body time to recover from die-off effects – toxic bacterial proteins and human cell death. Remember, “the dose makes the poison” – doubling the rate of pathogen killing may quadruple the toxicity effects, so the optimum course is not the one with highest rate of pathogen killing. Every patient has to progress at his own pace. Go as fast as you can but no faster.

There are steps that can be taken to reduce die-off toxicity, such as drinking lots of water and eating salt to help urine excretion, and taking “moppers” such as charcoal, bentonite clay, cholestyramine, or chlorella to help assure that toxins released from the liver through the bile are excreted in feces, not re-absorbed.**


(Note: I cut and pasted as I thought appropriate)

Also: I think paul no longer recommends chlorella or cholestyramine.

But in sum, for me, it helps to explain how you can get sick before you get better.

I read their comments and I think I remember paul saying that while fighting a viral, fungal or bacterial infection, glucose requirements can be quite high.

So I can understand your desire to eat white rice, or other carbs.

Paul, for example, realized he had a bacterial infection because when he drank sugary soda, the symptoms got better - his brain fog cleared.

Fungi feed on ketones, so if you get worse low-carb or ketogenic or lots of coconut oil, it's a fungal infection, because protozoa like ketones, and if you get better, it's bacterial, which feeds on carbs.

a lot of people have multiple infections.

I know you had a gut dysbiosis before that you were treating, so let's hope that this just a reaction caused by your "die-off."

Paul also mentions that most of the time you feel worse before getting better, thus the difficulty in prescribing nutrition/vitamin/mineral and drugs to treat viruses, Multiple sclerosis, etc.

3157 · May 13, 2013 at 10:28 AM

Hi there! Well, to start I don't even know if I have any kind of dysbiosis, last time I was feeling a lot in pain at the stomach and went to the doc they looked for celiac disease but I got negative. But I had a lot of abdominal cramps and bloating and very inconsistent stool so I guess I can safely infer that my gut health was not at it's best...

I got rid of all gluten and grains about half a year ago and I noticed a lot of improvement on my digestion, very few symptoms of bloating and pretty consistent stool Good thing. Problem here is from time to time I still get some bad digestions.

One thing I got with quitting grains was also a LC diet. Less choices so less carbs. I seem to find a relationship between high carbs and gut disturbances even if gluten free. In fact, I'm paying more attention to starches as these recent days I reintroduced some of them (I'm an endurance runner so even if I feel good on a daily living basis being LC I still fear not peaking at performance) and I noticed an increment in stomach pain some hours after eating sweet potato or squash. The s. potato thing makes some sense to me as the mannitol seems to be a good test for detecting a leaky gut.

So you see, in my case maybe I could be doing worse with safe starches than maybe pasta and rice, I have to experiment more with these because as far as I have read this means I could have some form of SIBO? Maybe it's just coincidence but I'll try to add and cut some of this starches and write down how I feel after eating them, cannot hurt.

Back to your scenario, and related to what I told about the carbs & performance, may it just be that you feel better with bread just because your body has more available glucose? Have you had any form of metabolic syndrome in the past (IE being overweight, low thyroid ,etc). Even if we are pro-carbs or VL carbers, its a fact the carbs have some positive effects short term: help erradicate cortisol (could explain you feeling better), promote endurance, anabolism...

So my guess is maybe you just benefited from higher carb intake but not just because of bread. How would you do with other sources as starch? Of even trying to switch for some days the bread with just the equivalent amount of plain sugar to test whether is the bread or not?

As for the probiotics, I have recently added sauerkraut, kefir, linseed milled seeds plus probiotics and pickles and I feel pretty well always after this food so I assume I do well with them.

1329 · May 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM

I can relate a lot to the question and Albert's answer. It's very difficult to get to the exact root cause of these things. I've been through several patterns - first of all I removed wheat, and then sugar, and for a long time I had an almost full recovery digestive-system wise, however, it didn't last...

I later became concerned that all high carb stuff was problematic, but found it hard energy-wise to stay very low carb.

Currently I am eating whole rye bread fairly regularly and generally the results are positive. Energy levels are steady, digestion isn't perfect all the time, but a lot of the time it is very good, I'm slim, not bloated, and I think I look well. I am routinely mistaken for mid-twenties and I'm in my early thirties (this has gone on since the initial improvements a couple of years ago).

I find that there's a balance. The roughage and the slow release carbs of the rye bread seem to be beneficial for the classic reasons, however I need to eat it in reasonable moderation or what was a comfortable level of bulk crosses the line into impaired digestion and paunchiness.

My fundamental rule is whole foods, and I rarely eat wheat - if I do I need to get some whole rye in soon after to fix what the wheat does. I can't explain this, but I believe the rye heals/balances the problem that the wheat causes. I am also alright with oat porridge, as long as they are whole and not some instant rubbish.

The best conclusion I can make is that my body just rejects industrial foods, not agricultural foods: dwarf wheat, seed oils etc - these things mess me up. Not artisan, traditionally prepared wholegrain rye bread.

15380 · May 16, 2013 at 6:45 PM

I wish I could split the bounty in more than two ways. Is there a way to do it? Anyway, I want to thank ALL of you, especially Albert for providing some badly needed advice. Thanks again and I am very very sorry I cannot give points to all and each of you.

4247 · May 13, 2013 at 12:00 PM

How many calories do you eat on "clean" Paleo vs. Wonder Bread and buttermilk? Could it be that your body just needs more food period, and that's why you have so much more energy?

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