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Who here considers a life without intervention?

by (18635)
Updated October 18, 2014 at 3:22 AM
Created October 30, 2011 at 3:31 AM

Beyond that needed for emergency care would you perceive your healthy lifestyle enough? Would you consider a life without testing and intervention from the medical establishment? Being that many here are quite astute on how to read studies, why would you subject yourself to another persons "diagnosis"?

I understand that a lot of hackers here like to test, test, and retest...I'm not one of them, but even if you are, there are resources to get these things done without referral these days. Self assessment for peace of mind and determining our own route for care is a very up and coming thing. Being that if you go to a MEDICAL Doctor you usual end up with a script for Drugs that in no way move you towards health I believe most here look for alternatives anyhow. And judging by the number of "how can I convince my doctor I'm not crazy and I don't want statins" threads....these visits are a prime source of stress. Are they necessary at all in your view?

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1018 · November 08, 2011 at 2:01 AM

I'm quite sure that lifestyle and diet can reduce the risk of cancer and/or the recurrence of cancer (I'm a breast cancer survivor as well as an oncology nurse - BMI is *clearly* linked with risk of recurrence). There is ample scientific evidence of some kind of correlation, though "lifestyle" studies are really hard to design in a way that definitively says "eating X decreases your risk by Y." But (a) most of us have only been paleo 5 yrs or less (many cancers evolve over 10+ yrs) and (b) it is very unlikely that *any* diet *eliminates* cancer risk, given the role of genetics & environment.

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18635 · November 01, 2011 at 11:26 PM

I must absolutely concede that this question should also include the disclaimer of congenital defects and actual hardwired genetic disease aside ALONG with the aforementioned emergency care.

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18635 · October 31, 2011 at 9:35 PM

Why are we so sure that living a certain lifestyle can (and has) prevented type II diabetes or CVD or obesity even reversed it, but can't make that association with something like cancer?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52
18635 · October 31, 2011 at 9:31 PM

Why are we so sure that living a certain lifestyle can (and has) prevented type II diabetes or CVD or obesity even reversed it, but can't make that association with something like cancer. Why is that?

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18635 · October 31, 2011 at 9:20 PM

There are quite a few that would argue those things do not happen in a healthy individuals system, or that they occur in a self limiting fashion. I know its kinda hard to wrap your head around, but its the defining point of holistic health and preventative wellness.

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7540 · October 31, 2011 at 1:46 AM

Treating with lifestyle is a nice idea and all but there's a whole lot of things that can go wrong where "changing your lifestyle" will not help. Good luck removing a tumor or treating end-stage renal failure or an aortic aneurysm with lifestyle changes.

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18635 · October 31, 2011 at 12:01 AM

I agree that there needs to be change in the medical profession, but I think that it will have to come from pressures exerted form within. Like you said, "they won't allow you to school them". So hope you keep at it!

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 11:59 PM

I agree, but I think its going to be far more important for the medical community to change from within. Pressure from current members like yourself. Glad you keep at it.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 11:56 PM

I think you hit a point...I feel like it breaks down something like this....A percentage of the population is never changing anything they do and need and MD because the will need Meds....A percentage of the population is willing to change lifestyle, but unwilling to spend a ton of time on pub med so they need another type of doctor...DC,ND,accupuncturist...whatever, just someone that treats with lifestyle (I know Quilt falls in this category, but 99% of MD's do not)....And then there is those that will research and make changes in lifestyle based on such, the question is more for this group.

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32518 · October 30, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Jack~ I've done my fair share of educating my docs. My experience is that they were too arrogant to think that *I* could possibly know something that they didn't. Unfortunately, your post smacks of that same arrogance. I like you as a person & what you share here, but "...you will need us at some point for some reason." Oh really? Honestly, it doesn't endear me to the medical profession when I see that attitude.

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1816 · October 30, 2011 at 6:01 PM

great point. modern medicine does a lot of unneeded things, but modern medicine does some pretty awesome things, too.

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25467 · October 30, 2011 at 5:46 PM

Then you will be high and dry when you do need one. The choice is clearly yours. But I think its going to happen with or without you and those who feel the way you do. If you just read the comments on my blog you hear patients who want and need change......The optic on this site is not how 99% of the world is. Its time to broaden your perspectives to help your fellow man.

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56606 · October 30, 2011 at 4:55 PM

My mother has a congenital heart defect that was diagnosed before symptoms presented and appropriate precautions have been taken

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32518 · October 30, 2011 at 4:54 PM

I'm not interested in PAYING a doc to "massage" him or her slowly, lol! BTDT. Docs can educate themselves on their dime--not mine.

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8979 · October 30, 2011 at 4:03 PM

We aren't supposed to do this in California either, but it doesn't look like a rule that is enforced.

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15976 · October 30, 2011 at 1:19 PM

well i;ve heard arguments that say in humans there *is* evolutionary pressure to live beyond reproduction: because we can't raise ourselves. Human infants and children need adult-aid beyond what any other animal needs. Food for thought

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10255 · October 30, 2011 at 1:14 PM

@Christopher, i can't go to a lab myself. if my doctor would order a test not covered by the insurance plan, i would then be expected to pay for it, but my doector won't do it because he says unnecessary testing takes up time that the lab could use for tests for sick people. the only exception i have found in ontario is this new clinic that specializes in corporate wellness and they cost a fortune to "join"

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10255 · October 30, 2011 at 1:09 PM

another great reason to move to BC. Ontario is way behind you guys.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 7:20 AM

Oh...and how many congenital heart defects are diagnosed before symptoms present themselves?

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 6:35 AM

But thats my answer to my own question isnt it?

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 6:16 AM

with this response you have proven without a doubt there is actually no use in eating paleo past the age of 22! Good job!

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 5:58 AM

Daniel....thanks, I wont(see a "medical" doctor). I might go to Kmart or walgreens and see if I'm hypertensive though...or get some panels run at a very resonable price if I wish. I won't medicate a problem to hide the symptoms. I will find the cause and treat that with lifestyle change. Many "screenings" are for early detection..NOT prevention, and of quite dubious use themselves. This is all assuming a species/ancestoral specific lifestyle that promotes health and inhibits disease...Just my view..please don't take it as anything against your particular paradigm.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 5:52 AM

Daniel: I won't bother with a "medical" doctor for "regular chechups". I could get my hypertension results at Wallgreens/Kmart and many other labs other places. As you say MY CHOICE. But, I feel quite well and as I responded elsewhere have had surgery(so will use in emergency). Is use outside of this necessary OR detrimental? The screenings you speak of ...for instance screening for melanoma has not reduced the death rates due to melanoma related cancers. Your talking of early detection NOT prevention...there is a huge difference.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 5:37 AM

Personally I will see a doctor...just not a medical one. And I deny any testing without reasonable physical or other symptoms associated with such due to the fact that my diet and lifestyle is congruent with my species and I do not believe disease to be random chance.

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78417 · October 30, 2011 at 5:36 AM

Also through MyEhealth online I can get results from the lab as fast as the doctor gets them.

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78417 · October 30, 2011 at 5:35 AM

In Canada I can go to the lab and order/pay for tests myself. I just prefer to go through the doctor so medical pays for the tests.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 5:33 AM

Erased my comment cause it sounded like I was being snarky....Well Daniel hypertension can be told at walgreens....many tests you can get on your own. Are the preventative tests (NOT preventative...Early detection) very accurate or useful? I'll just use one stat...early detection of melanoma has NOT reduced the incidence of death by percent of melanoma cancer. Much is seen in the other cancer categories.

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376 · October 30, 2011 at 5:31 AM

I did not know the medical care in Canada's system was so screwed up. If I understand right, you can't pay a doctor privately to do a test unless a medical board would deem it necessary and financially reasonable for all people? What's next, will they not allow people to drive fancy cars or buy steak to eat because some can't afford it or you have enough protein from cheaper sources? I know, free cars and steak for all Canadians! That should fix the dilemma.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 5:24 AM

Sorry Daniel, I was not meaning to point you out specifically. I understand your concern, and it is one that our society shares in general. Either because we have been marketed to do so or it has become necessary due to ill lifestyles. Which is why I ask this question to a portion of society that is more health conscious. And to this portion of society I think this is relevant.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 5:08 AM

Yeah...I know its my call. I won't...Thanks! Beyond that, its more of an exercise in why you do? You could find out if your hypertensive at walgreens! You can get many tests on your own. Do you beleive your body just fails randomly? Is there some medication that will fix it? Or given the test values and what you have learned with paleo would you first consider some other dietary and exercise alternatives that your MD was not likely to recommend anyway? And if you would do these things why did you go to the MD in the first place?

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3280 · October 30, 2011 at 5:03 AM

Thought-provoking question, whichever side you come down on it.

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2889 · October 30, 2011 at 4:44 AM

If you do not feel the need to see a doctor--it's really your call. Past certain ages, there are screening tests that may of value, and I do believe it is useful to know whether one is or is not hypertensive, has an optimal vitamin D status,etc., and for many dental cleanings are of value...

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 4:22 AM

No doubt...ripped my pec tendon completely from my humerus about two years ago. Surgery or lose my pec major. Nice to still be able to use my chest muscle after having it reattached. Like I said great for emergency care.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 4:16 AM

I'd say middle aged...but the question is brought from recent conversations with ninetysomethings who are in good health and seem to attribute such to the fact they dont go to the doctor. Is it the chicken or the egg? I dunno..I also have talked to ninethy somethings that have 3+ doctors appointments a week, obviously not nearly as vibrant. Lets face it there are numerous instances of doctors strikes REDUCING mortality rates.

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10255 · October 30, 2011 at 4:15 AM

we have a publicly funded medical system with universal care. so our health departments decide what is necessary under what circumstances. to allow citizens to pay for medical services, implies that people with money aka the rich get better care than the not so rich. and honestly, i agree with the principle, but tests are not treatment; its just information, and unnecessary information at that, according to my doctor.

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2889 · October 30, 2011 at 4:09 AM

JayJay--am I correct in assuming you are very young?

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 4:08 AM

On a side note then, why is this not a right that we all have? If willing to pay for a test why not able to obtain it? Seems like some middlemen don't want cut out the loop to me! Lets face it most the testing we speak of are low risk tests so its not that....they cost a fraction of what the labs make so it isn't like they couldn't make a buck....you could get the results and try to interpret them yourself???? Or in worst case not be able to interpret them then contact an MD?

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 3:53 AM

Really...you cant pay for them out of pocket per say?

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7967 · October 30, 2011 at 4:13 AM

They never have been for me. Tests are fun but I'll never be a regular visitor to the dentist or doctor unless there's something wrong I can't treat myself. I diagnose myself correctly 100% of the time before I visit. My health, I'm in charge, I can't imagine going to a dr. who pressured me to take meds I didn't want etc or doing yearly checkups.

Thank god for modern medicine, though, really. Their advice for preventative care may suck, but there are no laws (yet) that force us to follow it. I had prompt surgery on my hand last week cause a little slice with a paring knife severed a tendon in my thumb - could have gone the rest of my life without being able to move it normally, in fact due to scar tissue could have ended up with a permanent hook thumb not good for much at all.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 4:22 AM

No doubt...ripped my pec tendon completely from my humerus about two years ago. Surgery or lose my pec major. Nice to still be able to use my chest muscle after having it reattached. Like I said great for emergency care.

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1018 · October 30, 2011 at 4:04 PM

Gotta throw this in: I'm an inpatient nurse and it is a regular occurrence to get an admission who is an old farmer who "doesn't believe in doctors," hasn't seen a doctor for 30 years, etc. Inevitably, they are in end-stage renal failure, liver failure, have metastatic prostate cancer, multiple myeloma, CHF, advanced dementia, pulmonary emboli or something along those lines -- often several things along those lines. The usual course is running around trying to figure out what the hell's going on (very difficult with no medical records, no baselines, patient who is a poor historian, etc.) which involves lots of invasive testing; then they crash, end up intubated (because of course they are a full code) in the ICU, and then die.

Obviously, the setting I'm encountering these folks in selects for ill people. And in addition to an aversion to doctors, these guys tend to be poor and uneducated -- versus the relative affluence and high level of education we see on this forum (and I assume tends to be true in most paleo circles).

But I see enough that could have been detected at a routine physical (and most likely ameliorated, or at least made more tolerable, or at least given the patient a heads up that time is limited and they'd best make some end-of-life decisions/plans) that instead leads to a very unpleasant death (redundant to some I'm sure, but not to nurses!) -- it makes me leery of completely eliminating "modern" medicine from most people's lives. Even rock hard paleo cross fitters get cancer, KWIM?

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1018 · November 08, 2011 at 2:01 AM

I'm quite sure that lifestyle and diet can reduce the risk of cancer and/or the recurrence of cancer (I'm a breast cancer survivor as well as an oncology nurse - BMI is *clearly* linked with risk of recurrence). There is ample scientific evidence of some kind of correlation, though "lifestyle" studies are really hard to design in a way that definitively says "eating X decreases your risk by Y." But (a) most of us have only been paleo 5 yrs or less (many cancers evolve over 10+ yrs) and (b) it is very unlikely that *any* diet *eliminates* cancer risk, given the role of genetics & environment.

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18635 · October 31, 2011 at 9:35 PM

Why are we so sure that living a certain lifestyle can (and has) prevented type II diabetes or CVD or obesity even reversed it, but can't make that association with something like cancer?

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18635 · October 31, 2011 at 9:31 PM

Why are we so sure that living a certain lifestyle can (and has) prevented type II diabetes or CVD or obesity even reversed it, but can't make that association with something like cancer. Why is that?

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18635 · October 31, 2011 at 9:20 PM

There are quite a few that would argue those things do not happen in a healthy individuals system, or that they occur in a self limiting fashion. I know its kinda hard to wrap your head around, but its the defining point of holistic health and preventative wellness.

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7540 · October 31, 2011 at 1:46 AM

Treating with lifestyle is a nice idea and all but there's a whole lot of things that can go wrong where "changing your lifestyle" will not help. Good luck removing a tumor or treating end-stage renal failure or an aortic aneurysm with lifestyle changes.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 11:56 PM

I think you hit a point...I feel like it breaks down something like this....A percentage of the population is never changing anything they do and need and MD because the will need Meds....A percentage of the population is willing to change lifestyle, but unwilling to spend a ton of time on pub med so they need another type of doctor...DC,ND,accupuncturist...whatever, just someone that treats with lifestyle (I know Quilt falls in this category, but 99% of MD's do not)....And then there is those that will research and make changes in lifestyle based on such, the question is more for this group.

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1816 · October 30, 2011 at 6:01 PM

great point. modern medicine does a lot of unneeded things, but modern medicine does some pretty awesome things, too.

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32518 · October 30, 2011 at 1:43 PM

I do my own health care these days.

Haven't found much help from the docs I've been to. They gave me "bandaids" for the symptoms, but never addressed the source of my (previous) issues.

A Primal diet and some judicious supplementation has solved all my health problems.

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20519 · October 30, 2011 at 1:48 PM

I'm extremely healthy, very very active and eat well - truly have my whole life, and am generally a very happy person - I think this helps healthwise as well. My family is strong with longevity, 90's is normal. Nothing ever seems to take any of us down unless it's a freak accident or bizarre disease. It was always, and still is for me, self-diagnosis first doctors second. Family growing up on farms far away from any help makes you figure it out on your own if you can.

I had an extremely shite health situation take place this month and as a follow-up to make sure all is well am having a last round of tests run. I believe I'm fine, and my doctor does as well - super amazing doc, and am trusting that these tests will confirm that all is a-ok. As the blood is already being taken I'm kinda of curious what else is going on and am asking for a few additional things. I'm curious.

Other than something crazy happening, currently the only "normal" doctor visits I have is my gyn. I don't take any medication, never have, and the only Rx is b.c. and travel inoculations. Outside of stitches, severe concussions and big broken bones, ok and that bout of meningitis a few years ago - to repeat thank god for modern medicine or I'd be dead, oh and maybe the few instances of entamoeba histolytica when I was living out of the country, that's pretty much it for le docs and me.

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15976 · October 30, 2011 at 1:17 PM

i'm 32 years old, male, healthy, lean, active. I haven't had health insurance in over six years. I haven't seen a doctor in that time. I eat well and try to live smart.

However I've been to the ER 3 times for acute injury - cuts, breaks, falls.

However I'm getting older and not having health insurance sucks.

Also years back I had TB. yes, people still get it in the US. I probably would've died with a doctor.

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6087 · October 30, 2011 at 6:09 AM

Evolutionary pressure only selects for genes that help you get to reproductive age and reproduce. A perfect diet won't fix your congenital heart defect.

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18635 · November 01, 2011 at 11:26 PM

I must absolutely concede that this question should also include the disclaimer of congenital defects and actual hardwired genetic disease aside ALONG with the aforementioned emergency care.

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56606 · October 30, 2011 at 4:55 PM

My mother has a congenital heart defect that was diagnosed before symptoms presented and appropriate precautions have been taken

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15976 · October 30, 2011 at 1:19 PM

well i;ve heard arguments that say in humans there *is* evolutionary pressure to live beyond reproduction: because we can't raise ourselves. Human infants and children need adult-aid beyond what any other animal needs. Food for thought

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 7:20 AM

Oh...and how many congenital heart defects are diagnosed before symptoms present themselves?

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 6:16 AM

with this response you have proven without a doubt there is actually no use in eating paleo past the age of 22! Good job!

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4359 · October 30, 2011 at 11:14 PM

Neither extreme is optimal. There will probably be a time in your life when modern medicine really works for you. Unfortunately, modern medicine (including mainstream dietary advice) also has a hand in killing most people. If you have good judgment and do your own serious (pubmed-type) research, you can have the best of both worlds.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people, including tons of really smart people, lack good judgment when it comes to health and are either incapable of or unwilling to do their own research. Thus, the best advice for most people is probably to just (i) find a good doctor that listens, seems smart and is somewhat open-minded and (ii) approach modern medicine with a slight bias towards avoiding invasive or dangerous tests and treatments. Generally, if the test/treatment is worth it, your doctor will push pretty hard to overcome your initial reluctance. If the doctor isn't insistent, the test/treatment was probably just offered to minimize the doctors risk, not yours.

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25467 · October 30, 2011 at 4:44 PM

Regardless of what side you come down upon......you will need us at some point for some reason. The real issue for you all to ponder is how to get your doc to a primal template.

It is the reason I even come here.

We need you........to show them the chronic results of this lifestyle and then educate them with the science they refuse to read on their own.......

Then real change happens and paleo reaches its tipping point.

You the skeptic patient is the key to this tipping point. And regardless of whether you think you need us or not now.......you need to share your lifestyle with them while you dont need them

They see metabolic syndrome all day. When you come in you are the exception and not the norm. They actually will pay attention to you because of this. But they wont allow you to school them. They have to come to the idea of paleo in their own way.

Your job is to massage them slowly.

Then you win because you help educate a new paleo doc.

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18635 · October 31, 2011 at 12:01 AM

I agree that there needs to be change in the medical profession, but I think that it will have to come from pressures exerted form within. Like you said, "they won't allow you to school them". So hope you keep at it!

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 11:59 PM

I agree, but I think its going to be far more important for the medical community to change from within. Pressure from current members like yourself. Glad you keep at it.

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32518 · October 30, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Jack~ I've done my fair share of educating my docs. My experience is that they were too arrogant to think that *I* could possibly know something that they didn't. Unfortunately, your post smacks of that same arrogance. I like you as a person & what you share here, but "...you will need us at some point for some reason." Oh really? Honestly, it doesn't endear me to the medical profession when I see that attitude.

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25467 · October 30, 2011 at 5:46 PM

Then you will be high and dry when you do need one. The choice is clearly yours. But I think its going to happen with or without you and those who feel the way you do. If you just read the comments on my blog you hear patients who want and need change......The optic on this site is not how 99% of the world is. Its time to broaden your perspectives to help your fellow man.

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32518 · October 30, 2011 at 4:54 PM

I'm not interested in PAYING a doc to "massage" him or her slowly, lol! BTDT. Docs can educate themselves on their dime--not mine.

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10255 · October 30, 2011 at 3:49 AM

in Canada only board certified doctors can order tests in most provinces and the results are only given to the doctor who ordered the test. if i could order and pay, i would never see the doctors available to me at this time.

doctors are necessary. the people eating SAD still need their meds.

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8979 · October 30, 2011 at 4:03 PM

We aren't supposed to do this in California either, but it doesn't look like a rule that is enforced.

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10255 · October 30, 2011 at 1:14 PM

@Christopher, i can't go to a lab myself. if my doctor would order a test not covered by the insurance plan, i would then be expected to pay for it, but my doector won't do it because he says unnecessary testing takes up time that the lab could use for tests for sick people. the only exception i have found in ontario is this new clinic that specializes in corporate wellness and they cost a fortune to "join"

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10255 · October 30, 2011 at 1:09 PM

another great reason to move to BC. Ontario is way behind you guys.

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78417 · October 30, 2011 at 5:36 AM

Also through MyEhealth online I can get results from the lab as fast as the doctor gets them.

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78417 · October 30, 2011 at 5:35 AM

In Canada I can go to the lab and order/pay for tests myself. I just prefer to go through the doctor so medical pays for the tests.

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376 · October 30, 2011 at 5:31 AM

I did not know the medical care in Canada's system was so screwed up. If I understand right, you can't pay a doctor privately to do a test unless a medical board would deem it necessary and financially reasonable for all people? What's next, will they not allow people to drive fancy cars or buy steak to eat because some can't afford it or you have enough protein from cheaper sources? I know, free cars and steak for all Canadians! That should fix the dilemma.

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10255 · October 30, 2011 at 4:15 AM

we have a publicly funded medical system with universal care. so our health departments decide what is necessary under what circumstances. to allow citizens to pay for medical services, implies that people with money aka the rich get better care than the not so rich. and honestly, i agree with the principle, but tests are not treatment; its just information, and unnecessary information at that, according to my doctor.

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 4:08 AM

On a side note then, why is this not a right that we all have? If willing to pay for a test why not able to obtain it? Seems like some middlemen don't want cut out the loop to me! Lets face it most the testing we speak of are low risk tests so its not that....they cost a fraction of what the labs make so it isn't like they couldn't make a buck....you could get the results and try to interpret them yourself???? Or in worst case not be able to interpret them then contact an MD?

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18635 · October 30, 2011 at 3:53 AM

Really...you cant pay for them out of pocket per say?

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