"PH is like my real family: I know I'm related but disavow all knowledge."
" shame on you far hanging there(paleo hacks). That place is an intelectual black hole ;0)"
Do you think the site is full of i-holes?, and if how can it be made better?
Btw, this isn't a rip on Rob by any means.
I usually answer only after I've read all answers and comments first. I usually answer only when I am not drunk, not menstruating and not all amped up on safe starches. I am sorry to say that tonight IS NOT THE NIGHT!
I have had my issues with PH in the past, for sure! I've never belonged to any online forum. Ever. In my life. Ever. But, PH is full of big thinkers and heavy hitters when it comes to nutrition and exercise. There are quite a few threads that can be sold as chapters of diet and nutrition books for a pretty penny. There are also a few threads that make me want to puke in my shoes. Some, (Oak0Y Grok rest your soul), are so incomprehensibly inspirationalthat I want to wreck my house and build one of corn cobs in the middle of the forest. (Also let's eat wild living animals okay?) :)
Here's what I think. If you are going to make your living in the "Paleo" world, best not to shit in the places that discuss such things. But hell, I've been drinking.
The Drama Llama has arrived on the paleo scene in the past few months, starting with Gary Taubes vs Stephan Guyenet.
I can see Robb's point, and I can see the opposite point equally well. Of course there are going to be dumb questions. Is bubble gum paleo? Will cod liver oil save my relationship? But that is to be expected.
There are 3,815 users on paleohacks. Almost 11,000 questions have been asked. Will each new question be awesomely mind-blowing? Probably not. But as paleo becomes more and more popular due to people like Robb, Mark Sisson, and even a couple of the folks who've posted on paleohacks (I'm looking at you Paul Jaminet, Cate Shanahan, Chris Masterjohn, and a few others), more new people arrive and ask questions. Sometimes I'll read a question and think that I'm too cool for school, being all seasoned and shit (but not really, since eating "paleo" is ironically quite a new concept in the US). So it's nice to help new people out, as the above mentioned people do with their books, services, blogs, etc.
Not to mention the fact that some really really awesome information has been laid down among the morass of posts on paleohacks. This is just a sliver that I thought of off-hand...
Kurt Harris and Melissa HGL provide some interesting views on the coconut
A great compilation of anti-paleo arguments, and another one.
Travis Culp on Zinc, K2, and cavities.
Lots of back and forth about safe starches round 1 and round 2.
Paul Jaminet on heart attacks and dietary saturated fat needs.
Tons of stuff about caffeine.
Low carb diets and thyroid
Chris Masterjohn, Dr. Kruse, and Dr. Rosedale on dietary approaches and blood sugar
So sure, some people will sift through and find things they want to read, some people are too busy or annoyed, etc. But there is so much dang content on this site. If someone was brand new to paleo, I'd point them to Robb/Sisson/Kresser/Jaminet and have them read a concise list or two. But when they get curious, there aren't that many places with a greater collection of information than paleohacks. And where else can you go to get a nearly instant response from strangers on the internet about your random-ass paleo question?
I think he's partly right. There's some dodgy stuff that goes on around here sometimes. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of great information and opinions here but there's a lot of junk and negativity also. There it's also the issue of sheer volume - there's a freaking heap of posts on ph, you practically need 4 hours a day sometimes to keep up with all the answers and comments.
Robb is entitled to his thoughts and opinions, and I don't think he was bashing, I think it sounded more like joking.
So, here is my take on this: During the frackas a few days ago about the feminist/paleo/Movnat schtick. Lindsay commented that the woman was partially correct, that paleo did have a number of misogynists. I was shocked and asked her "where" and "who" and she said "paleo hacks." Apparently some guys were saying something to the effect that if women could not breast feed they should not reproduce.
They were apparently serious. This type of stuff is apparently a not-infrequent occurrence.
This prompted my admonition to Lindsay, and now we find ourselves here.
Now I'm going to make an apology and then I'm going to piss some people off, warm up your tar, fluff your feathers.
Apology: It was bad for me to say what I said. I am perturbed by this place at times, in no small part because of the potential lost (IN my opinion) which I will ge to in a moment. Whatever my reservations are of anyone in this community however, we are generally stronger and better when not snipping at each other. I was pissed at the ridiculous feminist piece AND that PH was of sufficiently questionable content to cause Lindsay to consider it a misogynist holdout. the combo just buggared me, but that's no excuse for saying what I said.
Please check out the following:
This was early in the PH incarnation and I was EXCITED. I was familiar with the stack-overflow type of Q&A and I knew that it was popular amongst programmers as it allowed for the potential of some kind of binary information processing, yes/no answers that would allow the cream to rise to the top, especially when coupled with the social badging aspects of crowd voting. Cool. I watched, and some cool stuff was brewing, I got busy did not check back for a time but when I did I was kinda horrified. The first thing I remember finding was a thread on killing and eating a squirrel, drinking the blood and other goodies. I guess I'm one to talk after the I-caveman thing but I was thinking "what if one of my clients finds this place, or if I post here tracks my name to it?" How am I going to convince this diabetic mother of two that paleo is sane with stuff like this being the soup d'jour? Now, you may be thinking that I'm just being hysterical and not getting the full vibe of the place. Well, my first misgiving was not my own, it came from Patrick:
So here's how things stand from my side of the campfire: 1- I fucked up saying anything. Bad on me. 2-Lindsay thinks a not insignificant misogynist element calls this place home. 3-A fair number of folks I respect chimed in with similar thoughts. 4-Patrick, the PH FOUNDER, expressed QA/QC concerns 18 months ago.
The back and forth about "there is still a lot of good: people, articles etc." reminds me of the decline of the CrossFit message board. PH seems to have some issues, or perhaps, me Lindsay, the founder and several other people are wrong. Whether that is accurate is for y'all to decide, I just wanted my full accounting here. If I could make one suggestion: I'd make it mandatory that people operate with real identities, that you verify those identifies in some way. People are pretty bold and prone to outrageous behavior when they are operating anonymously.
I'll take a stab at this -- here's hoping I don't regret this.
WRT Robb Wolf -- I don't know him well, but have spoken on the phone once or twice and emailed a few times. I have recommended his books and blog numerous times. (My mom especially liked his book.)
He kindly had Cate Shanahan guest-post a blog post on iron in infant formulas that Cate researched & wrote at my urging.
Robb has always come across as both a stand-up & very smart guy, so I very openly say that I was disappointed that he is not a fan of PaleoHacks.
C'est la vie.
I have asked him for concrete suggestions as to how he would make things better at PaleoHacks -- at the time of this writing, haven't heard much other than he will try to spend some more time here. <--- which would be great as I welcome smart & talented people of Robb's ilk.
One has to accept that PaleoHacks is simultaneously an awesome and not-so-awesome place.
First, The Awesome:
I have been in awe at some of the much more intelligent & informed people than I on PH sharing their interpretations vis-a-vis a paleo paradigm of the various data available to us. Personally, I have learned much & try to keep an open mind. Watching people's & the community's view(s) evolve over time has been especially fascinating.
Thank you for your participation. Keep on keepin' on. You all make PaleoHacks awesome and I am grateful.
Now, The Not-So-Awesome:
There are a few nutcases amongst you. I don't know why this is -- this could be the nature of the internet or something about Paleo brings out the nutjobs. I have expressed my concerns about you privately in emails to some of the Paleo leaders and others -- as I have publicly:
(the now emergent gratuitous Paleo re-enactment fetishists must be starved of attention as well as their snake-oil selling jump-on-the-Paleo-bandwagon-brethren)
Let me make clear: my definition of nutjob has nothing to do with your interpretation of Paleo be it Sissonian, Wolfian, Taubesian, Harrisian or Nikoleyian than it has to do with your behavior and how you frame your arguments.
Those of you who have flagrantly broken the community rules I tend to find & suspend or delete. There are some that flirt at the edge of the rules and the only reason I don't delete them is that I don't want to delete anyone b/c of ideology.
Believe you me -- there are many people whose POVs I think are flat out wrong, but I would not delete because their behavior doesn't merit it.
My hope, and this may be a very naive hope, is that the PaleoHacks community "punishes" both bad behavior and stupidity.
Random thought: What I find interesting about PaleoHacks, as an experiment in crowdsourcing, is that it may threaten the Paleo gurus' influence -- but then, see how I feel about Paleo gurus here:
Net-net I think PaleoHacks is a massive force for good, and the awesome FAAARRRR outweighs the not-so-awesome. Thanks again for being a part of this.
NB: My mods and I do our very best to moderate fairly. I am sure if we have dinged you, deleted you or suspended you -- you probably feel that I am big, massive jerk. Which I probably am.
Ha! Lurker!!! How does he know what goes on here at PH??! I'll bet you a filet mignon that ALL of the paleo biggies lurk at PH.
What I know of Robb Wolf is that he is a decent, kind and humble man. Paleo babby jesus perhaps but still a very human man. I think his recent actions show a huge lapse in judgment and he owes Patrik an apology. In starting and growing this site Patrik has earned the right to be shown respect and I don't blame him to being hurt and angry and calling Robb out on it. (I hate to admit this but I especially loved the slam on G2C. Classic!)
It's been a rough couple of days in the paleoshere but I'm excited to see the fruits that come from the recent discord. From trouble times can come great things and I believe that is what will happen. I am thrilled to hear Robb commit to spending more time here. We are already lucky to have several "distinguished" members active in this community and the more they participate the better IMO. I am always thrilled to read answers and comments from Paul Jaminet, Ron Rosedale, Dr. Cate, Masterjohn, and Evelyn (who I disagree with most vehemently but I appreciate her bravery in standing her ground even while being pummeled) and many others who pop in from time to time. I wish they would do it more frequently. It might be interesting to find out why they don't (if there is a reason) so that the site could become a more hospitable place for them?
The site has been a bit bogged down in the past few months with somewhat inane questions and answers that seem to come from a few with nothing better to do with their time. Non-answer answers I would call them. We definitely have our share of rep point whores and I think they've added to the decline of the quality of the site which lead to this outburst of criticism. I feel like I'm on MDA sometimes (which is not to slam that site at all but it is decidedly different in function than this one.) At any rate, this criticism can be put to good use (on both sides of the rift) and as long as people don't dig in their heels and live in their angry place I feel certain it will be.
I saw the Twittering going back and forth, and had a few thoughts. The first of which was I get where they're coming from, and they deserve to blow off some steam.
The second was, "Yeah, well PH is made up of those who participate. So if you don't participate, then do you get to complain?" You know. The usual democracy/no-voting-no-whinging rule.
The third was that these were prominent Paleo folks, and as a plebeian, it made me feel a bit looked down upon. Like, who are they coaching to greatness if not those of us in the great, unwashed masses? It seemed like a bit of bad PR.
But I also think that hacking is what they do professionally all day long, and I certainly wouldn't expect them to waste their spare time here.
I have a lot of respect for Robb and all that he does in the community. Like anywhere else on the internet the surfer has to use some power of discrimination when looking for answers.
Aside from PH, I don't think there are very many other places with the sheer volume of links to scientific studies, or contrasting views on opinion-based answers.
Fish oil, for example, was something that Robb suggested taking extremely high doses of, and has since backed off on those recommendations. On here, there were people that brought up the possible downsides of too many PUFAs back when the other people were taking 5-10g/day.
I liked how one person said something about how they never go here anymore. I checked- they do come here pretty regularly :)
Otherwise, who cares? I mean, crowdsourcing has quality issues and we all know that. If you are offended by stuff easily, crowd-sourced sites are not for you.
Potatoes and resistant starches 6 Answers
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