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I am 22 year old fit and active male with a high insulin sensitivity, great muscle tone, and a low body fat percentage (sub 8% year round). I have been "paleo" since I was 14, but when I started out I ate a lot of carbs from root vegetables, very low fat low fat (sub 20%), and medium protein. In my early 20s I moved to a high fat, low carb, moderate protein diet b/c I was hearing how carbs were so terrible and how fat was so good. So, the natural perfectionist in me decided to give VLC a try. My life took a turn for the wrose within the a month. I started having panic attacks, I couldn't concentrate for extended periods of time, and I had to drop out of light weight crew b/c my performance had rapidly began regressing. I stuck it out and became borderline hypochondriac for about another 6 months, and then got sent to the ER because my weight had dropped so low and my internal organs were causing pain when I would run b/c there was nothing protecting them. I just lost a little fat and a lot of muscle, but since I already had virtually no body fat to begin with I was horribly unhealthy. Oh, my libido sucked for the first time in my life too, which, when your 20, means something's wrong

After that nightmare I one day ate a yam at lunch and felt amazing energy that afternoon with a drastically improved mood. I did the following the next day, and kept increasing my root vegetable consumption again until I was eating starch or fruit at every meal. My health quickly returned- mood, libido, focus, strength, sense of humor, everything. I gained about 20lbs of muscle that I had lost, and I maintain a six pack effortlessly and defined muscles. It seems to me that high carb is the only way to go if you want to be mentally (like a student) and physically (like an athlete) active. I will never go low carb again and I feel badly for people who think that it is the only way paleo can be. Maybe if you were obese and eating SAD, then maybe, just maybe eating VLC paleo makes an improvemnt in your health. But I say maybe with great hesitation. I think that it is trendy to be VLC and even more so to be VLC paleo. So, I sometimes wonder if people just like the label and have a great deal of suspension of disbelief to persist in their VLC, high fat way

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This isn't a question... – Jess Apr 6 2012 at 0:39
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Oh, yeah. I guess I was expecting that from the title and the story one would infer that I was curious as to if anyone else has had any similar successes or failures with carb manipulation. – foreveryoung Apr 6 2012 at 0:44
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I am mentally (like an engineer) and physically (like a Nationally ranked strongman) active, and I go low carb. Don't make assumptions. And agreed, not really a question. – Joshua Apr 8 2012 at 15:14
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How about if you are old and active? – Warren D Apr 9 2012 at 18:55
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Am I the only one around here who votes to close a non-question instead of complaining????? – Bread-Eating Beelzebub Jun 12 at 15:48
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closed as not a real question by Bread-Eating Beelzebub Jun 12 at 15:46

13 Answers

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I think this would make sense for certain people who have particular health problems. The body can make the fat and then use it, hopefully, rather than keeping ridiculously large amounts of it around for a rainy day. For low carb diets, the original induction level was 20g, and I was losing weight just fine at 50g; if you are an athlete it would be easy to sustain a 100g-200g carb load, depending on your size. The VLC thing, which I think tends to be below 20g all the time, is what happens when you are already locked into playing the scale game. I lost a lot of weight, and the drops would come in about two week intervals- so naturally if I didn't see the scale budge all week I'd try lowering the carbs more because I got addicted to seeing that number on the scale go down. But I don't think it actually made the scale go down any faster than plain old regular low carb. 50g represents a lot of fruits and vegetables, which may well have meant better nutrition. Ketogenic diets have been shown to be beneficial for certain medical issues, and it is certainly possible a low fat paleo diet could solve different medical problems as well. For normal people it makes more sense to have variety; each of these physiological states have benefits and drawbacks- we get stronger by staying in them just long enough to get some adaptation, but not long enough to get damaged. The ideal, of course, is to be able to not think about these macros at all. Grok just ate stuff, you know? I can't see a man in the paleolithic arguing about whether a sweet potato or a chunk of pork belly is better. He'd just eat the sweet potato on his way to kill the pig.

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Best answer award. – foreveryoung Jun 12 at 14:43
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I think your assumptions come from believing that there is only one way to eat "paleo". I even hate using the word 'paleo' to describe my diet. I've studied lots and lots of different ancient cultures. I've done research on many paleolithic sites. All of the information I've read or gathered in no way what so ever did paleolithic humans eat one particular way over another (considering carbs). If lots of fruits and veggies were available in a season then they ate more carbs, if not then it simply didn't get as many carbs that day, week, month... you get the idea. Your diet should be as varied and as seasonable as possible, as this reflects the dietary conditions that humans evolved under much more so than naming off percentages that you should eat everyday. Sorry you had to feel like crap so long to learn that carbohydrates (from fruits and veggies) and the nutrients that come with them are not evil.

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Thanks for the response, Josh. I think you're advice to eat seasonally is great. I also don't even really like the term "paleo." I didn't mean to imply that VLC is for no one, but I don't think it's the be all end all answer for everyone either. Thanks again for the helpful response. – foreveryoung Apr 6 2012 at 1:01
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Trendy to be VLC?

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You must be new here...

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No, your reading comprehension is shoddy. Where did I say it's trendy to be VLC? – foreveryoung Apr 8 2012 at 20:09
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"I think that it is trendy to be VLC". The second from last sentence of the lead post. Your reading comprehension is shoddy. teehee. – Warren D Apr 8 2012 at 21:08
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Touche. Lol. (I am new here). – foreveryoung Apr 9 2012 at 0:48
Welcome, foreveryoung! – Warren D Apr 9 2012 at 18:57
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Two things.

1) Not everyone is an active 20-something year old athlete.You already were in great shape so your goals and reasons for being Paleo are very different than what I dare say are MOST of the Paleo eaters out there.

2) You may want to read Paleo Diet for Athletes. The book talks about how athletes, especially endurance athletes, need to modify their Paleo diet to fit their active lifestyle. It helped me reconcile a lot of things in my diet.

I agree with the first responder that you need to create a Paleo diet that fits you.

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I agree...after trying LC Paleo for a while then experimenting with a Paleo version of the Anabolic Diet I realized I thrived on the right carbs at the right times. So I have worked out carb cycling pretty well in my paleo life. I earn my carbs now. I see alot of strict paleo friends around me who low carb and really struggle. You need to find what works for you and your goals and your genetics. Don't be afraid to experiment and tinker. – Frank Sabia Jr Jun 12 at 4:44
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VLC makes me feel like a blob of nothingness with absolutely no concentration. I honestly think that it works for some people, and not for others though I've heard such a wide variety of people leading a wide variety of lifestyles that have had amazing success with VLC, that I don't know exactly what it is. I thought I wasn't doing it "right", but after several runs at it with terrible results following word-for-word what the pros said, I figured why push myself to do something that didn't make me feel good when I had something else that made me feel great? Now I eat moderate to low carb with a healthy portion of fat, and not too much protein (something which I've tended towards in the past).

However, I wouldn't qualify myself as "low fat" paleo, just "moderate amounts of macronutrients in general" paleo. I think actively seeking low fat is ridiculous for me because my satiety just disappears and I become ravenous.

There are other paleo-ers who like a high-fruit or higher-carb style of paleo, most distinctly I think Denise Minger: http://rawfoodsos.com/

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Hey, thanks for the link! I don't know if I'd actually consider myself low fat either, just low fat comparatively speaking. I don't use butter on my foods, but I do eat bison and eggs (occasionally) for fat. I just don't eat nuts (digestion issues), butter, or any significant amount of oils (coconut or olive). I just eat meat, fish, roots, fruits, and veggies. No nuts, very little oil and butter. I don't really intentionally take away naturally occurring fat, but I don't add it to anything either. – foreveryoung Apr 6 2012 at 0:55
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I agree. Being young and active the VLC thing did NOT work for me. It made my body temp lower wayyy too much and I was constantly thinking about food. I would over-eat on fat to compensate and that just made me gain weight. I am doing much better with carbs from squash and sweet potato and have the energy to get through amazingly tough work-outs. I don't think fat should be added in, but naturally included in your diet like, "Hey it's in my burger, or let me put some oil on this salad (but not heaping) or hmmm I really want an avocado" versus going out of your way to eat EXTRA fat..not a good idea for me...I just put on weight.

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Welcome to the dark side. LOL. Star Wars or the OC reference? – foreveryoung Jun 12 at 3:50
I'm confused :P – YoungPaleoLover Jun 12 at 23:30
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I don't know a lot but the metabolic typing theory/way is about protein & carb types, & mixes either way of those types. So maybe you're a carb type.

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I did one of the metabolic typing tests a few years ago and it suggested I was more of a fatty type so I increased the fat. This helped so I have experimented with lowering carbs to almost nil and increasing the fat a lot. I seem to be able to eat as high a percentage of fat as I please and it does nothing but good for me. Whether that is just a fluke or if metabolic typing really works, I reall can't say but it appears that in my case, it was right. – Warren D Apr 8 2012 at 7:26
Again, not endorsing metabolic typing, but it said I was a high protein type and any time I try to drop protein and sub fat to resemble a ketogenic diet I gain fat- yes, FAT, like crazy – JASmith May 19 2012 at 22:48
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I started with a higher-fat version but found it aggravated my IBS. Fat triggers bowel motility, so I was finding it worsened my colon spasm. I'm now finding lower-fat, higher-carb to be better, although I am still tweaking.

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word ________________ :) – foreveryoung Apr 6 2012 at 1:07
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Forever...what are your macros?

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I have heard that VLC can make you lose weight pretty fast so that is almost tempting (being 350lns when I started). However I thought about it and I didn't want to lose weight fast, that means losing muscle. I wanted to lose weight steady, and the right weight. So personally I never count a carb or for that matter fat or protein. I just eat. I eat what is paleo, I eat what makes sense and I am happy. I am losing weight, steadily. I always have a ton of veg and meat both. I don't like most fruit so I usually only eat bananas or grapes. I don't want low carb I want no grain.

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If your weight dropped dangerously low then it seems likely that either you or your body weren't handling the fat increase right. And I'd be pretty confident you didn't lose and regain 20 pounds of muscle - most of that will just be a change in water retention. It doesn't even sound as if your normal diet is low-fat, or even high-carb. I wouldn't be surprised that you took a step back while moving away from a balanced, whole-food diet.

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No you're right. It's just low fat compared to what I'm used to seeing around here. I keep fat below 30% of calories, and protein above 30%. I would consider what I eat a balanced, paleo diet now that I reconsider it. I just have learned that I feel better with carbs rather than without them in just about every imaginable way, and was wondering if I wasn't the only one. – foreveryoung Apr 8 2012 at 11:48
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Its hard to imagine how low fat would be good for mental clarity, fat is essential to the brain, and the majority of nutrients for neurotransmitters come from meat.

Endurance, energy I can understand, and I suppose if your carb intake was insufficient for your high energy output, that might starve the brain of glucose a little.

Paleo folks would have eaten tubers when they could, and especially in the absense of game, and they probably did a different style of excercise from you (what activity would be even vaguely similar to light weights in the stone age? Long distance walking, yes, heavy lifting yes, sprints and high intensity bursts yes....light weights? Cant think of anything natural thats like that)

Sounds like your just doing everything by extremes. How about a 30-35% carb intake rather than VLC? Why so extreme?

VLC..failed. Okay, ill go high carb, low fat. When that doesnt work, perhaps you could try eliminating all food, and living on sunlight!

LOL!!! You could always just use more fruit or carbs when before u work out? And you could always have had some carbs, rather than oscillate between none and a whole lot....

Mind you, its up to you, of course. Just consider how reactive your behaviours seem, to me, very extreme and black and white. Carbs are bad? Okay, no carbs. Doesnt work? Okay, carbs are good, fat is bad.

Whole thing sounds very weird to me, adjusting your diet personal macro levels should be a gentle fine tuning, not a flip from one polarity to another..Whats more, the nutrients you get from food take ages to effect your body sometimes, so you need that patience to notice the differences.

And as a student and excerciser consider this

  • actyl-choline is required for memory and attention. Its only whole food sources for the precursor, choline, are primarily meats and eggs. (There is one rare rice called amaranth which has it though, and concentrated soy has it, lol...)

-dopamine and noradrenaline are motivational, and connected to arousal and pleasure - they also relate to energy. l-tryrosine, their precursor, primarily occurs in meats.

-saturated fat is very important to the brain. 25% of the bodies cholesterol is used for the insulation on the neurons to prevent cross-talk and mental confusion.

-A number of areas of the brain also run on lipids, including the endocannabinoid system which is connected directly to endurance excercise, and inflammatory adaption.

The runners high itself is largely endocannabinoids, which are lipid based. Studies show that the endocannabinoid precursor Arachidonic acid, something found in meats only, improves endurance performance in athelethes. (Its also inflammatory, so you should used omega balanced sources)

So, you may want a higher carb level, yes, for your excercise regime, but limiting meats and fats could be a huge mistake. Where would you get your extra wind from without sufficient lipids? Or your insulation for your neurons? Your motivational neurotransmitters without meat? Your attentional and memory neurotransmitters without proper levels of animal products?

My advice - fine tune further. Look into the aspects I mention, and eat some more foods high in sat fats, choline, l-tryosine, and a resonable amount of balanced meat omegas, over time, along with a sufficient (not excess, but sufficient) level of carbs, and see what that does to your performance in school and the gym...

edit: if you are eating 30% protein, less than 30% fat, then your carb count is not that high, nor your fat that low. I would suggest perhaps tho, that unless your bulking hard/building muscle, that your fat to protein ratio is maybe a bit out. Then again, while I understand some nutrition (not alot), I have little clue about body building etc...

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You wrote: "Paleo folks would have eaten tubers when they could, and especially in the absense of game, and they probably did a different style of excercise from you (what activity would be even vaguely similar to light weights in the stone age? Long distance walking, yes, heavy lifting yes, sprints and high intensity bursts yes....light weights? Cant think of anything natural thats like that" I don't lift light weights or do long endurance activity. I do mostly HIIT/sprints and lift heavy weights. I also go for 1 longer run per week each Sunday (4-8 miles, depending on how nice it is). – foreveryoung Jun 12 at 4:43
Also, I know the importance of fats in the diet. I eat fat- seafood, extra lean beef, olive oil, eggs. I eat protein- virtually any animal. I eat carbohydrates. I cycle carbs. I eat no more than 75g starch on higher carb days. I eat bananas in addition on higher carb days. I replenish glycogen post workout with carbs. I eat the fat that comes on the lean meats and eggs that I buy, and I use olive oil on salads and in various dishes. – foreveryoung Jun 12 at 4:46
This was my first question because after reading the forum, I got the distinct idea that everyone was afraid of everything. hearing phrases like "safe starches," "fructose is toxic, therefore fruit is bad," and "carbs turn you into a sugar burner and not a fat burner, ergo carbs make you fat." All of these things are ridiculous in my mind, so I thought I'd ask why not low fat high carb to see what the responses were. – foreveryoung Jun 12 at 4:49
I eat a low fat diet in comparison to many of the people here, but it's really a moderate fat diet (between 20-30% of calories). – foreveryoung Jun 12 at 4:50
Paleo light weights: Lifting babies, lifting baskets, pulling a tuber out of the ground, pulling a net with a fish in it out of a river... – Diane Jun 12 at 15:27
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Low fat paleo...like..on purpose?

Truth.

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I meant low fat as in not high fat. As in, not at the expense of carbohydrates. – foreveryoung Jun 12 at 4:37

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