Hey Seb,

You're sharp!! I've already asked Robb about the LDL 40-70 recommendation and he clarified that was not exactly based on human adult data...

IMHO Palmitic acid is not cardio toxic in most 'paleo/evolutionary' circumstances. We release it between meals in the fasting state. We also consume and it circulates post-prandially.

I think of high insulin/glucoses/inflammation and palmitic acid as the brakes and accelerator of a car. You would not press on BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY, no? Neither would our bodies if we were in optimal health.

You are correct from what I've read -- palmitic and all saturated fats raise LDL but more importantly they raise the buoyancy and size particles ('good thing'). If there are a whole bunch of small dense, for some types (like apo E2) I think it raises both LDL total count and the small dense quantities. If small dense are already present, that usually means some inflammation and/or high carbs/grains and/or dietary saturated fat deficiency are already present.

These helped me: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/09/palmitic-acid-based-food-vs-olive-oil.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/09/palmitic-acid-and-insulin-resistance.html

-G

Robb's book hasn't arrived yet - it should get here today. I'm basing this on your representation of it.

Think for a minute about how much work would be involved in getting a can's worth of coconut milk. Does demolishing gobs of the stuff every day sound likely to you?

A while ago I did a blog post about the fat profile of various protein sources. I can't post the chart here, but I hope this won't be taken as self-promotion: fat chart.

OK, so regarding the Inuit. This is the fat content of 100g of seal blubber. Seal meat is very lean.

 description: Oil, spotted seal (Alaska Native)
      total_fat: 99.320
  saturated_fat: 14.740
  monounsaturated_fat: 54.520
  polyunsaturated_fat: 18.060

Looks like Monounsaturated to me. OK, Plains Indians. How about free-range bison? It's very lean, and I the USDA does not have numbers for the tallow only, but the percentages should stand up OK.

 description: Buffalo, free range, top round steak, cooked (Shoshone Bannock)
      total_fat: 1.800
  saturated_fat: 0.595
  monounsaturated_fat: 0.614
  polyunsaturated_fat: 0.171

It's close to even. Islanders are known to eat pork along with their seafood. How about that?

    description: Lard
      total_fat: 100.000
  saturated_fat: 39.200
  monounsaturated_fat: 45.100
  polyunsaturated_fat: 11.200

Hm, lots of monounsaturated there too. Beef and Lamb tallow have more sat than mono, but there's still plenty of mono there, and it's on the chart I linked to above. Buffalo and seal are not on there because I was sticking to things I might actually eat.

I do not lose weight on a high-fat, "adequate" protein diet. If I free-eat fat, which is what most high-fat diets suggest (I'm thinking Atkins induction), I will overeat it, and I will not lose weight. It's fascinating that I won't gain weight either since this flies in the face of most thinking on calories (that at some point, they do matter). I cannot, however, over eat lean protein.

Not everyone is the same, and if you're looking for something to justify eating tons of fat, Drs. Rosedale, Gedgaudas and Atkins all support that quite well.

I don't think that Robb Wolf was under any "political pressure" in writing the chapter on fats. He simply has no reason to say anything that he doesn't believe to be true. As far as "10-15 percent of total fat intake" goes, see the paper this probably came from. The paper concludes that "the normal dietary intake of saturated fatty acids that conditioned our species genome likely fell between 10 to 15% of total energy, and values lower than 10% or higher than 15% would have been the exception rather than the rule."

In a recent interview (near the end if you go there), Cordain maintains that saturated fat intake is probably not much of an issue as long as one's diet is paleo. He is careful to point out that the diet is an attempt to replicate, using modern foods, the actual diet that paleolithic humans ate.

Paleolithic humans simply did not have access to all the fats they may have wanted. Even a fall-fattened deer is still a pretty lean animal. So the plains indians certainly ate a Cordain/Wolf-like paleo diet. The Inuit, on the other hand, had access to marine mammals, which produce a protective layer of blubber, as well as fatty fishes. So maybe the Inuit consumed more dietary fat, but they would have been one of the exceptions to the rule.

The idea that the paleo diet is a high-fat diet is simply not true (although it's "fattier" than the CW suggests we eat). It may well be that a high-fat diet (a la primal/PaNu) is health promoting, but there is nothing paleolithic about it. In fact, access to all the fat we want, especially combined with the ability to precisely regulate the fatty acid profiles of these dietary fats, isn't simply neolithic--it's post-neolithic.

I honestly think that for the intro/basic reader, keeping it simple and advising what will work best for the masses is the approach he might have needed to take. For those of us who are more educated on the topic and have been eating this way for some time, it's cool for us to ask the questions and delve further into the details.

I agree though, that I was a bit surprised to see the glassing over of the subject. I love fat! :)

Comparison of mean saturated fatty acid composition (expressed as mg/g of fatty acid or as a % of total lipid) between grass-fed and grain-fed cattle

Palmitic is in most cases slightly higher (max. 3%) in grain-fed but really nothing to worry about.

Comparison of mean polyunsatured fatty acid composition (expressed as mg/g of fatty acid or as a % of totallipid) between grass-fed and grain-fed cattle

Source: A review of fatty acid profiles and antioxidant content in grass-fed and grain-fed beef

Cynthia A Daley 1* , Amber Abbott 1 , Patrick S Doyle 1 , Glenn A Nader 2 , Stephanie Larson 2

I remember reading in several sources that saturated fats are only inflammatory in the presence of nasties like sugar, trans fat, and Omega-6 oils. It could be that Robb assumed most of his readers won't get rid of these things completely (at least not right away). So his going conservative on the satfat was a protective strategy so that Paleo doesn't get a bad rap for the wrong reasons.

I think that both Robb Wolf and Loren Cordain are a little off the mark when it comes to the protein intake vs fat issue. I like the work of Nora Gedgaudes on this topic because she points to the importance of regulating leptin. I lost a lot of weight once I decreased my protein intake. I think there is reason to believe that our ancient ancestors got more fat from their diet than was originally thought because even though Elk and other wild animals tend to be lean, hunters prized the brains and other fatty organs as the first thing they would eat.

I know for me personally, a bit less protein and a bit more fat (and I eat lots of grass fed animal fat lately) is better for my appetite regulation, my digestion, and my mental happiness. I think that the nutrients in real fat are very valuable to human health.

That said, no one author in Paleo/Primal is going to ever have all the answers and I too commend Robb for all he has done for the Paleosphere. I do wish he would control his "potty mouth" at times, but Robb is Robb and errors and all, he is a great addition to the Paleo community.

Go Paleo!

wendy@gopaleo.com http://www.gopaleo.com

It's common knowledge among lowcarbers that the way to lose weight is to eat more fat. They don't seem to worry much about protein. I think it's cuz who wants to overeat protein? If you don't eat enough, then you crave it, but if you eat a certain kinda higher amount and then you don't want anymore. To me, at some point, the protein starts to taste very unappetizing all of the sudden. I would not want to eat a diet that meant I had to stuff down a lot of protein but not much carb or fat. Good way to get to feeling rather sick!

Edited to add: I have also been reading a lot of studies lately that people with low fat intake have inferior cognitive function and slower reflex response times compared to those with higher levels of fat intake. These people in the studies cycled through two types of diets, so they served as their own controls. Fat is necesary throughout the body for proper functioning.