Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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If I was to eat Paleo carbs: fruit and starch without fat each night ad libitum until full then have an overnight fast during sleep plus do fasted training in the morning with about 20-25 sets of high intensity weight lifting would that be enough to induce a state of ketosis

since liver glycogen status is the determinant of ketosis.

keep in mind that the amount of carbs eaten at night would be only filling glycogen stores since i am low carbing all day and carbing up at night before bed.

additionally I am exercising in the day which will also contribute to glycogen depletion on top of the low carb day.

edited Apr 23 2012 at 16:00

asked Apr 21 2012 at 17:13

Lucas
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Meatymichael · Accepted Answer · 2012-04-21 17:31:00Z UTC

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That's weird. That happened to me last night. I was skating for 4 hours and that whole day I zero-carbed. I had some carbs (potatoes and spinach ) ALOT before bed but slept for 11 hours. Woke up this morning with a metallic taste in my mouth and strong smelling urine. I knew I was in ketosis. I guess the carbs only partially filled up my liver glycogen so I used that up during night time.

answered Apr 21 2012 at 17:31

Meatymichael
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i don't know who downvoted you but im gunna upvote you because i like the fact that you had a personal experience which adds the the list of anecdotal evidnence in support of my question's goals. – Lucas Apr 21 2012 at 20:42

Some weeks I may only get the weekend to go hard and push myself physically, so I'll train for 4-6 hours each day only eating a few meals (mostly eggs and deer), and at night eat a bunch of carbs (it's just kinda what I crave so I go for it) anyway, on the second day I'll wake up after a long night sleep and have the same thing happen. – josh Apr 21 2012 at 22:28

Thanks, I wouldn't make this up. I kinda KNEW I was in Ketosis. You just kinda know. I had all the symptoms. Strong smelling urine. Metallic taste. – Meatymichael Apr 25 2012 at 16:52

foreveryoung · Answer 2 · 2012-04-21 17:51:00Z UTC

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Yeah man I think it's possible. I eat carbs and know I'm burning fat b/c I most of my carbs are post workout and mostly glucose, so it goes to fill muscle glycogen as opposed to liver glycogen.

answered Apr 21 2012 at 17:51

foreveryoung
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	Ketosis is a form of fat burning but not all fat burning is ketogenic. – Satchmo Apr 21 2012 at 21:49
	hey thanks for the clarification. That's what I assumed. Why isn't there a word for the kind(s) of fat burning that aren't ketogenic? Or, is there? – foreveryoung Apr 21 2012 at 23:33

August · Answer 3 · 2012-04-23 19:07:48Z UTC

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If you haven't seen Paul Jaminet's posts on creating a ketogenic diet, I recommend them.

Part One, and Part 2

answered Apr 23 2012 at 19:07

August
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	okay thanks August I'll take a look at those... – Lucas Apr 23 2012 at 19:33
	summary: take supplements (no thanks) or eat coconut oil to supply dietary ketones. whatever problems or goals I have I cannot see them being cured simply by the fact the I eat coconut products even if a ketogenic diet heals my neurological condition. – Lucas Apr 23 2012 at 19:49
	Well, I wasn't assuming you'd just adopt his plan whole cloth. I figured you could get some good ideas. The ketogenic diet Jaminet is talking about is for treatment. What you are talking about sounds like what some people do with honey- taking it right before bed to keep liver glycogen steady throughout the night. This approach, at the proper dosage, would actually work pretty well. I am not sure what the appropriate dosage is yet. I just got a copy of Honey Revolution to read. – August Apr 24 2012 at 14:13

James · Answer 4 · 2012-04-21 18:03:39Z UTC

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Potentially, but you're probably not going to get there. It really depends on your body though. The issue is, it doesn't really take much in the way of carbs (assuming you're porking out like you say you are) to top off your liver. For example, fructose in the fruit will pretty much go directly to the liver (since that's the only spot that can process it). If you want to do the carbs, I'd look more into targetted or cyclic keto diets.

answered Apr 21 2012 at 18:03

James
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	this would be a targeted approach but with the preworkout carbs moved to the night before rather than directly before the workout. other than that i usually just eat glucose type starches preworkout. i just figured this way i could eliminate some liver glycogen while maintaining a higher level of muscle glycogen as the amount on a tkd seem limited and liver glycogen replenishment at times may be useful for anti catabolic purposes which id rather allocate to sleeping hours – Lucas Apr 21 2012 at 20:40
	so in other words my question would relate to having full liver glycogen stores the night before undergoind an overnight fast plus fasted training and low carbing the rest of that day up until after supper/bedtime – Lucas Apr 21 2012 at 20:41
	Cycling through ketosis and glycolysis is kind of silly, especially considering the OP wanted to be in ketosis. Ketosis is also not catabolic by nature. If anything, glycolysis is more catabolic than ketone/FA metabolism. – Roth Apr 26 2012 at 8:47

YoungPaleoLover · Answer 5 · 2012-04-25 23:00:52Z UTC

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I don't know if it is such a good idea to eat so many carbs right before bed. Personally, if you want to induce a state of ketosis, I would eat those carbs right before your work-out, then exercise extremely hard and not touch carbs for the rest of the day: this will easily induce a state of ketosis in my opinion. Why are you interested in doing this anyways?

answered Apr 25 2012 at 23:00

YoungPaleoLover
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	actually that is my current plan a tkd approach. my reason for doing this is mental. when I initially went low carb a couple years back my brain changed completely and I was able to focus in school without the use of medication. one problem: exercise and muscle glycogen (among other minor symptoms). now whenver i step out of ketosis I can't get into my schoolwork at all it doesn't click until i hit a strong ketogenic state then its smooth sailing and my marks are really good. – Lucas Apr 26 2012 at 15:59
	trying to find a balance between physique and cognitive function i suppose or having my cake and eating it too... – Lucas Apr 26 2012 at 16:00

Caveman Truck · Answer 6 · 2012-04-26 02:24:56Z UTC

Are you fat adapted already? Can you go three days with 125 g of carbs in total and feel fine? If so, I would recommend MCT oil and possibly bulletproof coffee during your waking hours. High fat low protein. And since you are doing so many carbs at night I would do zero carb during other hours.

If you have yet to be become fully fat adapted I would cut carbs under 40g per day. You don't need to count leafy greens because you need to burn glucose to digest them and you don't want to eat more than 30 g protein in a sitting. Anymore than that will just get stored as glycogen. Dr. Peter Attia had problems entering ketosis because of this.

I would also wonder why you are doing this protocol. Do you only have access to certain foods at certain times? If you have access to all foods maybe do carb re feeding with yams/sweet potatoes?

Kyle_FitFolks · Answer 7 · 2012-04-26 15:45:15Z UTC

This is definitely possible. Consider an active pregnant woman, she's depleting her glycogen stores at an accelerated pace due to the dependent bun in the oven (also doubles up as a weighted fanny pack). Also, I don't know how many of you have been in the extended presence of pregnant women, but they don't tend to crave beef jerky & kale, yet by bedtime, ketones will be excreting left, right and center. Futhermore ketones, though produced in extreme situations - such as depleting carbohydrates - is not exclusive as such.

Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia regarding ketoneogenesis:

Ketone bodies are produced mainly in the mitochondria of liver cells, synthesis can occur in response to unavailability of blood glucose. This is caused by low blood glucose levels in the blood, after exhaustion of cellular carbohydrate stores, such as glycogen or ironically, synthesis of ketones can occur due to excessively high levels of blood glucose that are unable to be stored as glycogen in liver and muscle.

Not sure if that really answers the original question, but interesting nonetheless.

Eric · Answer 8 · 2012-04-26 06:20:38Z UTC

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If you go mostly zero carb all day and then eat carbs one meal at night. There is a chance of going into ketosis.

answered Apr 26 2012 at 6:20

Eric
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entering into ketosis on a high carb diet

8 Answers