I remember when it was a more academic movement and I miss that. The schedules of all the conferences seem to have more personal trainers than academics. And there is a strong anti-intellectual slant. I think more academics will gravitate away from being associated with paleo and publish things under the header of evolutionary medicine.

Right now I am at a library, where Robb Wolf and Sarah Fragoso own the term. Statistically, very few will ever read KGHs comment. Many people read so slowly they subvocalize. They will read if they have a problem they want an answer to, but if they get on Paleohacks and find all this labelgazing (like navelgazing but for groups!) and a rehash of the latest twitter escapade, they will assume there are no answers here and leave.

Meanwhile, Fragoso will win the day because her book has pretty pictures in it. Cookbooks shall be the gateway- and provide a handy and healthier alternative to internet addiction.

And then, I would be roundly criticized for trying to constrain the libertarian wonderland that is paleo on the internet, where every idea is a beautiful snowflake that deserves a fair hearing and is somehow "contributing to the conversation" - as if dialogue about diet were a useful good for it's own sake.

I would be considered a "hater" who is not interested in "helping people" by being so negative as to point out which of the beautiful paleo flowers are really just weeds.

He gets a standing ovation for this. Nail's been hit on the head right there. It is this idea that somehow anyone who has anything to say about pretty much damn anything is somehow contributing to the conversation that has killed us. No every idea that comes out of anyone's mouth is a good one or a paleo one just because they eat or advocate a paleo way of eating. This is where we effed up.

Once the loudest "beautiful snowflake" was allowed to set up his kool-aid stand it was pretty much over. Yes, it's over.

The value of Paleo hasn't dimished as far as I'm concerned. My experience has been life changing. I was on a dark road, lost. Now that I have the Paleo framework to work within I feel alive again. So I tell people that I eat Paleo and I'm not ashamed or worried about what they think. Nay sayers can keep on naysaying, but that won't change my experience, or what I tell people about it. I just hope the negative aspects will dimish with time and more doctors and research will be added to the mix.

I think that was a great post by Harris! Mainly because it shows that "paleo" is constantly being picked-up, turned over, examined, turned over, smelt and put-down again. It is a good Scientific approach, and we see people change their opinion as more information comes forward. This is good!

But call me crazy the value of Paleo is in the eating, not in the philosophy. So if anyone feels any value has been lost then they have been investing to much time in the ideology, philosophy and warm fuzzy feelings over and above simply the basic foundation: that being eating beneficial stuff over non-beneficial stuff, even if this is not entirely clear yet, and maybe never will be or actually have to be. We may not have the whole picture, but we have some parts of the picture and the stuff that's good works due to the fact that it's good. Eating iced doughnuts everyday is not good, so don't. Win!

When I read comments like Harris' then I feel paleo has gained value and creditability because it is shown not to be sacramental.

Unfortunately and people forget this, people will always gravitate towards forming religions, with religious leaders and dogma. It is impossible to be truly 'liberal', which sucks because it turns something into a movement and god only knows how many people must have paleo tattoos.

So like the Reformation stop investing in the movement and tradition and get back to the simple basics. Read more books and less opinion.

Paleo semper reformanda est.

There might have been, but just from the total inability to coalesce around core recommendations, and the radical variability in approaches we see under the label, anyone could be forgiven for thinking paleo is a lot of ideologically-driven a priori narrative-based dietary faddism.

I think Wolf, Cordain, and Sisson have indeed coalesced around core recommendations. Hell, even out-there bloggers agree on core recommendations, even if some are more enthusiastic about sitting in a cold tub than others. Oh, and Harris himself has some core recommendations that are basically identical to the above. Jaminet too. If some say it's okay to eat more sweet potatoes than others, everybody says a sweet potato is way better than bread.

I learned about Paleo from the trainers at my gym. Every couple months my gym organizes a 30 Paleo challenge. Hundreds of people have tried Paleo as a result of these challenges and most of them don’t even know who Robb Wolf is. I guarantee no more than 2 or 3 have even heard of Harris or Kruse.

Similarly, I have since “converted” 5 or 6 other people who are doing great with Paleo. Their decision to try Paleo happened because they saw the change in me and they trust me. None of them spend the time I do reading blogs, paleohacks, etc., because they don’t “need” to in order to follow the diet. The principles of Paleo are exceedingly simple – eat meat, vegetables, tubers, fruit, nuts and dairy if you tolerate it. As someone mentioned above, when people do go to the internet to search for more info, it is usually for recipes.

So, what makes me different? Why do I spend time here and other websites? Because Paleo/nutrition has become essentially a hobby for me. I find it interesting. But it became a hobby after I was already living/eating Paleo and had experienced success first hand. If it hadn’t worked, it would not matter how “scientific,” “logical” or “intellectual” the movement was or is. Paleo will succeed or fail based on its efficacy, not the level of intellectual discourse found on someone’s blog.

Having said all that, I don’t mean to imply that Paleo leaders/bloggers have no role. They clearly do and can provide help to thousands of people. But does anyone think Dean Ornish is wringing his hands and lamenting the fate of veganism based on Durianrider’s blog posts?

As someone who knows 100+ people that have at least tried Paleo, I am not aware of anyone that decided to keep going or give up based on anything said or done by a Paleo blogger.

This diet has been nothing but win for me, and the ridiculous ego drama of the last few days does nothing to change that.

Yeah, whatever. In the end:

Does it help to eat real food vs crap in a box?

Does it help to avoid grains?

Does it help to avoid artificial trans fats?

Does it help to avoid legumes?

Does it help to avoid dairy?

Does it help to avoid nightshades?

Does it help to get sun exposure?

Does it help to get exercise?

Does it help to limit sugar to proper portions?

Does it help to avoid artificial ingredients such as MSG, coal-derived colors, sweeteners such as aspertame?

Does it help to avoid BPA and other modern toxin exposure?

For me, the answer to almost all of these is yes (I can tolerate goat dairy, I can tolerate nightshades). The rest is meaningless. We're not here to do a historical re-enactment - at least I'm not. If you're not sure, just flip your answers around to "no" for a month and see what happens - if you like it, stick with it.

I think its pretty telling that he now prefers to hang out at CarbSane rather than PaleoHacks or his own blog, or many other people's.

This approach to health has always been about the fact that cultures that thrived were then reduced to the typical diseases once introduced to industrial nutrition. Across the board, across cultures/races, time - this happens. Why? That's what has kept my interest.

I am beginning to link the psychological health of defeated cultures & the associated stress with this decline in health.

The 'discussion' became polarized with the idea of high/low/no carb & the ideas of insulin resistance and fat loss, etc. Come high carb or no carb there is common ground throughout indigenous cultures - the idea it would seem in paleo is to emulate this within reason. Pretty simple in reality. Along the lines of 'eat food. mostly animals' idea.

The stress of the transition from a culture of inclusiveness & sharing to one of 'every man for himself' and the idea of consumerism & amassing stuff I think plays a huge part in the decline of the these populations health & well being. Suddenly they have to play this new game - and if they fail they 'deserve' to starve, have no shelter,etc. The natural human society confronting the 'individualistic' & for lack of a better word 'capitalist' society. Even for those of us born to this culture the stress is too much. This, to me, is also what so-called 'paleo' is about - what it means to be a natural human.

As he (eventually) says, there is value in the ancestral approach to nutrition. The problem is that this is rarely what people mean when they refer to paleo diets or lifestyles.

Its a wake up call for some paleo people who think its the perfect way of eating,its not!

Use your resources

Gather information from a variety of sources

Find what works for you

Experiment

Realize that everyone is different and experiences will be unique

Success may vary, there is not one way to do things

This is all just common sense, and should be applied to whatever "movement" you want to follow, if any at all.

My head just exploded. Is it an "out-group" arguing semantics with it's own "in-group"? Is Cherry really an Outsider? Or is she a Soc, just trying to infiltrate the gang? WWPBD? (What Would Ponyboy Do?).

The question isn't "what's the value of the core principles of the paleo?" The question is "is the community that's been built around some really solid principles worth a damn?" The community is valuable ONLY because of it's principles. If it wasn't for the fact that the principles are decently legitimate, the community would be utter crap. It's full of complainers and know it alls who have little respect for anybody and think they are the only objective individuals in the world. The community is working as hard it can to undermine the core principles and trying to nuance them into meaninglessness.