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Could we modern paleos be eating too much saturated fat?

**it seems as if there are a group of people who sought out paleo dieting as an excuse to bathe in lard. Palmitic acid is proven to damage blood vessels over and over in studies, now that is not to say it damages the heart, just vessels.. Cordain has pointed this out time and time again yet people still seem to be taking advice from tuabes and sisson. Read up about the Inuit mummy that was dug up totally preserved, it didn't have cardiovascular disease but it had extensive endothelial damage.

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What cultures get most of calories from coconut oil? Papua new guinea highlanders eat an almost mono diet of potatoes if that's who you meant. – Greensun May 17 2012 at 18:34
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People are "obsessed" with peanut butter. The folks around here who follow a (specific) high fat diet do so out of concern for their health and longevity, not obsession with fat. This approach is based on scientific research and extensive discussion about the health benefits of the paleo lifestyle. If you have a legitimate criticism or point to make about consuming fat, I would re-phrase your question without the pejorative tone designed to rile up a community of people who believe they are making the right decision for their health. – Marcy May 17 2012 at 19:11
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The Pukapukans and Tokelauans obtain 34% and 63%, respectively, of their energy from saturated fat from coconuts. – Tyler F May 17 2012 at 20:07
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Marcy, Greensun made a legitimate point. You provide no response and resort to attacking the pejorative tone that you perceived. – Kasra May 17 2012 at 20:27
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Yep been there done that. I have to agree with Marcy that the tone of the questions is very off-putting. Argumentative to say the least. I have voted to close. We have discussed this 100 times already. Please learn to search this site for the information you desire unless you are just really trolling for a fight. – Shari Bambino May 19 2012 at 0:03
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closed as exact duplicate by Matt, Shari Bambino, Kaz, raney, Bread-Eating Beelzebub May 19 2012 at 18:48

18 Answers

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Some people here eat a lot more fat than others. Some people like fat more than others. Some people do very low carb and high fat, others do more carbs and lower fat. Some people go out of their way to add fat to their diet (coconut oil in their coffee, a giant pat of butter on steamed veggies), while others just eat it as it occurs naturally in the typical foods they eat (not cutting every last inch of fat off a steak, enjoying an avocado).

I don't think anyone here is "obsessed" with fat. What I think happens is that most of us, for most of our lives, were bombarded with the message that...cue the scary music...FAT IS BAD. (More specifically, SATURATED FAT from ANIMALS [especially RED MEAT!] will MAKE YOU FAT and KILL YOU!!!)

So to find out that, no, in fact, fat is a very vital part of the human diet and can actually make us FEEL GOOD (more balanced moods, better/longer satiety, no blood glucose roller coaster), it's just FREAKING NICE TO BE ABLE TO EAT IT AGAIN!! (In whatever quantity each individual deems right for them.)

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Personally, I get a kick out of eating 3 HB eggs and taking my coffee with heavy cream while watching my coworkers with their fat-free yogurts, Nutri-Grain bars and fat-free/skim/soy latte. I'd be STARVING an hour later. And probably cranky, too. – Amy B. May 17 2012 at 19:14
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@Amy, right on. I try to avert my gaze when my coworkers get their food out, and bite my tongue to stop saying anything inappropriate! – eddieosh May 17 2012 at 21:36
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Peter at Hyperlipid has taken aim at the anti-palmitic acid studies before:

Palmitic acid based food vs olive oil or corn oil supplements, Palmitic acid the horror never ends, Palmitic acid the horror never ends: addendum, Palmitic acid the horror never ends: speculation.

So, I, and many of my fellow paleohackers are coming out of a very awesome time where people like Peter blogged regularly, and if it was a crap study, it's crappiness was very sarcastically pointed out. And much glee was had in paleo and low carb circles. Yes, we were one big happy family back then, everybody was just getting along and making fun of mainstream science and laughing at the vegans... oh yeah, and I lost +100lbs while eating something like 70% fat. Anyway, I don't know whether or not this addresses the particular study you had in mind, but if you read these posts then you could very possibly imagine the argument he would make about it.

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Fat is the food of the gods.

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Only if joined to a NY strip. – thhq May 17 2012 at 20:04
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boo, i hate that! – PaleoVenus May 17 2012 at 20:49
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Wouldn't that indicate fat malabsorption? – Tyler F May 18 2012 at 1:28
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Fat doesn't give me diarrhea. – Warren D May 18 2012 at 5:24
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Fat IS the food of the gods; Greek myth has the fat as being the bits of animal sacrifice most pleasing to the gods. Old Testament too. People back then knew what was valuable in a slaughtered critter. :) – January May 18 2012 at 8:01
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Your bodyfat contains palmitic acid. So, are you saying that every time you use your own bodyfat for energy, you're damaging your blood vessels? How does that make any sense at all?

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Bodyfat is partially palmitic acid, but probably only around 30% palmitic acid. There are many types of fatty acids that can make up the triglycerides that are stored in adipose tissue. – Matthew Caton May 17 2012 at 19:46
Edited my original answer for accuracy - thanks! – Kelly B May 17 2012 at 20:24
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As an energy source for the body fat causes less oxidative stress than glucose.

Fat and glucose are essentially the only two options for fueling the body here, because with a high protein diet excess protein will be converted to glucose and used as fuel. So, a high fat diet with moderate protein intake and low carbohydrate intake will be a diet that causes the least amount of oxidative stress. Glucose also runs the risk of causing AGE's.

Ironically enough, high fat intake doesn't cause chronically high serum levels of palmitic acid (triglycerides). Fructose and ethanol are the biggest contributors of chronically high serum levels of palmitic acid (triglycerides).

If you have found my answer informative, then please visit my website, for more insightful and Paleo-related information.

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I don't see how measuring blood levels of fat is nearly as functional of a study as a coronary angiogram. And I bring this up only because this is th study ornish and essylstein use to measure the reduced risk of blockages following a low fat diet. This is a much more novel and sophisticated test than a calcium score that dr William Davis uses, the cardiologist who advicates high fat. A coronary angiograms is the next step down from an actual autopsy which I mentioned earlier, that did show associations between a truly paleo high fat diet and the development of endothelial dysfunction – Greensun May 17 2012 at 18:41
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My uncle followed very low-fat diet for ten years, very similar to the Ornish diet. He was skinny as a rail, and didn't smoke or drink. After ten years he had a heart attack and 90% blockages were found in his arteries. He was so confused, having never touched fat for ten years. How did that happen? – Matthew Caton May 17 2012 at 18:53
Matthew, what do you make of the studies cited above? (1) ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904539 and (2)heartdisease.about.com/od/reducingcardiacrisk/a/… – PaleoVenus May 17 2012 at 19:36
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First of all I'm not going to recognize about.com a legitimate source of information, but I'll address this first study. Looks like whoever posted the about.com reference above already removed it, from embarrassment I'm assuming. This study showed that there was no HDL anti-inflammatory response to saturated fat, and that there was an HDL anti-inflammatory response to PUFA's. This is most likely because PUFA's cause inflammation and HDL anti-inflammatory response is up-regulated because of that. These researchers desparately trying to find a mechanism by which saturated damage blood... – Matthew Caton May 17 2012 at 21:48
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PaleoVenus, You are right on that, I summarized incorrectly, but this would make my point stronger that there is a possibility that anti-inflammatory HDL activity is down-regualted because saturated fat is so stabe, and unlikely to oxidize, it may provide a protective/anti-inflammatory benefit itself. This is very similar to how the body down-regualtes it's own production of antioxidants when supplementing with dietary antioxidants. FMD only decresead 2% with sat fat, and 1% with PUFA's. That's kind of nothing, wouldn't you agreee? – Matthew Caton May 18 2012 at 16:20
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Please don't abuse mummies, it's not nice. Maybe it's time for us to tell Cordain, a professer of exercise science, to maybe not try to make health proclamations based on archaeological finds he clearly doesn't understand.

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Those are some interesting hypothetical mechanisms you've got there, shame they don't work in reality. (Krauss meta-analyses 1 and 2).

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this is pretty much the answer to the question, imo. – PaleoVenus May 17 2012 at 20:50
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The fat hypothesis was totally put to bed by the above studies 2-1/2 years ago now. If anyone's still talking about it, they ain't educated. And if the esteemed Cordain is in that group, well, so be it. The science has spoken here, game over. – IfYouSaySo May 17 2012 at 22:47
What do you make of the comment - "Clinical trials that replaced saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat have generally shown a reduction in CVD events" – peter May 19 2012 at 21:42
Stephan on WHS has posted about this (wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/…) and more in the same series. A couple of things to bear in mind are that these trials often replace trans fat, as well as SFA and increase o3 and o3:o6 ratio. – David Moss May 21 2012 at 9:37
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I don't think it's surprising that a fair number of people who are drawn to this diet are somewhat extremist, so it follows that they might take things to an extreme or be drawn to more extreme self-experimentation.

As someone who struggled with craving and overeating industrial crap on SAD, I've found that my increased fat intake has really helped me to feel much better overall (reduced anxiety and dramatically improved sleep, among others) and ultimately those things matter to me far more than living until I'm 90.

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I'm currently eating a high fat diet because I find that it helps my mental health problems, as well as my appetite (I'm less prone to binging on all the SAD foods). So far it's been working pretty well. In the future that may change, but for now, it's a pretty high fat diet for me, and it helps.

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I think in general, people in western society just obsess about food. Whether it's obsessing about dessert, obsessing about fat, obsessing against fat, obsessing about carbs, obsessing about sugar, obsessing about their next meal, etc. etc.

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I think paleos were obsessed with finding food. Move to eat, eat to move. – thhq May 17 2012 at 20:07
I have not met a single person who is obsessed or even mildly concerned with any of those things. I think the obsession is largely concentrated in the small subpopulation of people that visit forums like this. – Kasra May 17 2012 at 20:31
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I agree with David. While I like talking about nutrition and discussing food on these boards, I think more people in the US would be better off viewing food more as fuel. It is straight up no good to view food, any food, as a reward. This, unfortunately, is now common and even professed as fine for raising children, etc. Eat to fuel the rest of your life of moving, loving, working, playing, etc. – ben61820 May 18 2012 at 0:42
If people in the US would see food as fuel they would just go to McDonalds every day. After all, we want the cheapest and easiest to get fuel, right? Seriously, there's nothing wrong with obsession if it works. I see quite some people obsess about particular food, Kasra. You seem to be under the impression that only people on here try to get healthy. The amount of people around me that still avoid fat like the plague because it would make them fat... When I was a kid I was obsessed with chocolate and candy. And what kid isn't, really? – Korion May 19 2012 at 10:37
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Why would anyone need to seek out Paleo to eat/justify eating fat in higher amounts? They would give up the high fat and high carb crap diet to do "that"??

haha..no logic there for fat obsessed. I have eaten high fat 50 years....and so did my grandparents...lo-o-ng before Paleo was a model of any diet plan.

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My great-grandpa made his own sauerkraut in the basement all his life. He liked to say, 'you gotta have gravy, so the kraut slides down.' and he was eating it with a nice pork butt roast from pigs he raised, too. – November May 18 2012 at 3:47
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oh, and also, great-grandma made pie-crusts with lard. :9 – November May 18 2012 at 3:47
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Human fat & pig fat are very close in composition. A good article here: http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html

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The more I've thought about it the less sense it makes to call high fat diets Paleo. Our paleo ancestors had no cooking vessels. Lard, tallow and butter all require processing - they are Neolithic foods in every sense. Matesz projects a paleo diet which is very similar to the Med, with lower fat content than most SAD diets, and 50% carbs.

High fat diets only became popular with Dr. Atkins. Maybe he's the ancestor of modern Paleo dieting. It has little to do with what real Paleos ate.

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Animal fat does not have to be processed. – Warren D May 17 2012 at 20:34
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What's that sizzling sound I keep hearing as I turn the hog on the spit? – PrimalDanny May 17 2012 at 20:54
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I don't think fire and rocks were a recent invention. :) – eddieosh May 17 2012 at 21:45
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thhq There are plenty of very fatty parts on a lot of mammals. There is no law in the wild that even the leanest parts of an animal must be eaten. I've read historical accounts of lots of wastage at kill sites. Fatty parts and organs being taken and much of the rest being left behind. – Warren D May 18 2012 at 5:30
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Even the equator does not look like a Del Monte commercial. – Warren D May 19 2012 at 5:46
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Hasn't this been covered in detail before here?

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Of course. I expect this question to be closed before we finish our smokes around the campfire here. – thhq May 17 2012 at 23:57
Yes, I'm looking for the dupe and can't find it though. Can anyone point the way? – Bread-Eating Beelzebub May 19 2012 at 2:35
paleohacks.com/questions/12638/… That looks pretty similar. – primallykosher May 19 2012 at 4:06
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The human race are opportunistic omnivores, top of the food chain. We got to where we are by being excellent hunters, consuming the best parts of the beast. By figuring out how to cook meat we were able to pre-digest food meaning we could have smaller bellies and consume more nutrients to grow bigger brains. The point of the Paleo paradigm is to figure out what to eat for optimum health; if that means eating lots of saturated fats so be it. The jury is still out on what 'optimum' is, that's why we're here on PH, but we're pretty confident from evolutionary theory and personal experience that meat is a more likely source of healthy nutrients than grass seeds (i.e. wheat products), high-fructose corn syrup and trans fats -- mmm, Twinkie anyone?!

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Orthorexia. Some folks take it to the extreme. I read on another paleo fourm (the equivalent of 30 BAD) about some guy who ate nothing except homemade pemmican. Supposedly he was thriving from it. Cured all his illnesses, hasn't. Pooped since starting his pemmican fast. Then he got his family involved.

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I like stories like this. Xtreme paleo or jackass paleo. Tough call. – thhq May 18 2012 at 2:41
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Lol yea reminds me of that crazy raw food family from Wife Swap. – Acumen Athletics May 18 2012 at 11:27
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Jesus christ now fat is bad? Seems like everyone's got an opinion on why one thing or another is bad. How are we meant to know what to do with such conflicting information???

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So just eat real food, don't stress about it. – Snarkki May 17 2012 at 18:56
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^ What is real food? – Kasra May 17 2012 at 20:33
It's not that fat is bad, it's eating, drinking and bathing in enormous quantities of lard that is the problem. – Poop Master MC May 18 2012 at 0:00
Kasra, good question! – HuntingBears May 18 2012 at 0:14
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I eat a high fat diet but it's VERY specific and controlled. I eat tons of macadamia nuts (for healthy monounsaturated fats) and tons of salmon and sardines (from BPA free cans of course) for my Omega 3s. That's it! All my meats are lean and I eat tons of vegetables and a little fruit. Here and there I'll have an egg or two, but I even limit those. There's already plenty of saturated fats in salmon, chicken, and eggs - why add more? Grass-fed burgers is like my once a month treat instead of eating something stupid like a pastry or cookie.

I never cook on a frying pan anymore either so I don't have to use any oils. All my meats are broiled or baked in a pot with herbs and spices. The only other oil that gets into my body is extra virgin olive oil on my salads.

I eat like this because I'm well aware of the damaging effects of excessive saturated fats. Why take the risk and find out the hard way?

As a side note, if you're like me and take a lot of supplements, you'll find they're all laced with stearic acid as a preservative. Watch out!

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"damaging effects of excessive saturated fats" - Substantiate? – findchris May 17 2012 at 18:08
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Yeah, most of what you're saying does not make sense. – Kasra May 17 2012 at 20:32
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Did you read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" yet? are you still reading those population studies? Correlation <> Causation. Remember that. – Patrick May 17 2012 at 21:21
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Why would beef be more dangerous to us than fish? So you believe our ancestors learned to create hooks with lines, boats, and nets before they could hunt or scavenge any land animals? Do you think we were extracting oil from olives for hundreds of thousands of years? Gathering high quantities of nuts (from trees that weren't even in the same areas as humans until the last 10,000 or so years)? And taking magic supplements? You're still stuck in the mindset of conventional wisdom. – RS May 19 2012 at 7:55
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D.K., are you taking thyroid meds? I'd freaking die on your diet. – Korion May 19 2012 at 10:46
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