Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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I eat fatty red meat, coconut oil and fish oil daily, and a bit of green veggie a few times a week. Been so since January. No sugar, no starch, no fruit. My body has been really happy with it. Hormonal hunger signals are much more regulated, I can actually go all day without a meal and feel fine (and exercise), and my sleep has improved.

After fully keto-adapted, I tried to incorporate some starch post work out (sweet potato), and my body reacted badly; I felt starved and irritable again between meals, and woke up at 3am staring (like I used to on carbs all the time). So, I gave that up fast.

My workouts are heavy weight lifting (sets of five), and rock climbing. Doing that on ketosis has been brilliant. I never run out of energy; its slow and steady like diesel fuel. BUT*** hiking up mountains for hours now I am 25-35% slower, and my legs burn A LOT more; I used to be the fastest guy doing that when I guzzled carbs on the way up.

Even before my current ketosis diet, I didnt tolerate carbs very well UNLESS I was in the midst of some hard, long cardio workout like climbing up a big mountain for hours or cycling hard. Then, my body seemed to utilize and metabolize them great, as long as I took the majority of them DURING and POST hard cardio workout, NEVER before. On my off days, my body went back to not tolerating much carb. My heartrate has to be high for duration and my muscles hot for my body to use carbs for energy properly it seems; im normally insulin resistant unless im exercising cardio hard.

For weight training, and rock climbing, ie strength training, ketosis works great. I actually feel STRONGER. But for any time my heartrate goes up and stays up, like hiking a mountain, I feel fatigued and slow.

Back to the present. Being in ketosis for so long, my body has become even more insulin resistant in the muscles due to glucose sparing for the brain, as Ive read on here several times is the usual way the body adapts to ketosis conditions. So now, im REALLY insulin resistant, and carbs REALLY bother me.

I need to be able to eat carbs when Im climbing up a big mountain, which is about once per month. But I dont want to eat them at all unless im doing that; now that I am in ketosis carbs bother me more than ever.

Is there any way to live in ketosis most of the time, ie stay adapted, and use carbs for fuel occasionally when conditions warrant, i hiking a big mountain, without "practicing" carb intake in the off times?

Has anyone done this? Can I have my cake and eat it too?

flag	asked May 24 2012 at 9:23 animaleater 3,258●11●32

do you have the same issues with with simpler carb sources such as fruit or even 100% glucose (or dare i say sucrose)? or is it just the starches that cause problems. – daz May 24 2012 at 9:37

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You need to read "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" – Don May 24 2012 at 14:29

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Straight sugar like pixi sticks and smarties? Nothing could be worse. – YoungPaleoLover May 24 2012 at 17:30

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daz, any carbs mess up my blood sugar and cause terrible hormonal hunger signals, and Im avoiding fruit a la the leptin reset and fructose issue. EDubs, coconut water has no calories, so I dont see the point. I use coconut oil or dried flakes sometimes, but neither give me the boost I need for endurance cardio. Kelly, eating pure sugar is just not something Im gonna do....it jacks my blood sugar to hell, and I think sugar is poison anyway. – animaleater May 25 2012 at 6:22

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all the coconut water i've ever seen always has calories. & is mostly carbs, sometimes with fibre as well depending on the brand. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_water#Composition . Similar to EDubs i drink it for the electrolytes & some liquid carbs – daz May 25 2012 at 9:00

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CS · Answer 1 · 2012-05-24 13:08:12Z UTC

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No answer here, just affirming the question. I too am fat-adapted and would like some insight into utilizing starchy carbs when needed. Then again, I'm currently reading through The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Jeff Volek which I'm sure will answer most, if not all of my questions.

If I can remember, I'll report back here after I finish the read.

A side note: I don't have the sweet potato problem. I use them post-WOD after heaving lifting days and I feel great. I alway eat them along with even greater amounts of grass-fed red meat. I supplement omega-3 and Vitamin D3 as well. I know I'm not supplying facts here, just sharing what works for me.

answered May 24 2012 at 13:08

CS
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Chris, pretty interested in your insights when finish the book. I'm coming of a carb cycling scheme, and thinkering a bit with higher fat, no carbs to see how it goes. I'm currently adding mass, but i would like to keep the strenght gains(wendler 5-3-1) and slowly get to 10% BF(12-13% Now). – Flip May 24 2012 at 14:19

Just ordered that book yesterday off Amazon... Looking forward to reading it! – jjtitus May 24 2012 at 15:26

Chris, I take D3 and Fish oil by the spoonful. Its not just sweet potato, but ANY carb that throws me back into that old hormonal hunger signals going haywire thing. I find after heavy lifting that I dont need carbs at all anyway. its just endurance exercise, hiking mtns or cycling, that I am lagging without carbs. Another thing, I digest meat great by itself or with greens. Throw in carbs, and the meat doesnt digest well at all. Theyve done studies that say the different enzymes/conditions needed to digest meat and starch dont get along well together at the same time. – animaleater May 25 2012 at 6:27

I need to get that book. Thanks for the recommendation. – animaleater May 25 2012 at 6:28

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Ketones work well for me when my heart rate stays low, but hiking up big mtns, even with a moderate heartrate, what with all the hours of reps on my legs, makes me fatigued alot more than on carbs. I can't tolerate any carbs now, PWO or otherwise. They send my hormonal hunger signals haywire, and I feel like crap. Yes, I couldn't live in Kansas! Lived in Denver, now Tokyo, and the Japanese apps are steep and rigged! 2300meters of vert, hiking or road cycling. I've got one tiny, immaculately paved road ride I used to do regularly that rises 2000meters over a nonstop 52km climb! – animaleater May 26 2012 at 2:21

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Rob · Answer 2 · 2012-05-24 11:10:06Z UTC

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I have a Clif Shot Bloks Organic Energy Chew before going anaerobic, and then one about every 30 minutes. The margarita flavor has extra sodium. They're 8 grams of carbs each.

answered May 24 2012 at 11:10

Rob
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So, are you normally ketogenic/fat adapted? So then just a little bit of carbs while performing endurance exercise does the trick? – animaleater May 25 2012 at 6:29

Yes, that's all it takes. Sometimes I go wild and have two cubes initially for 16 grams and then a couple more cubes later, but it never kicks me out of ketosis. I've read that carbs burnt on the spot are less likely to do so. – Rob May 25 2012 at 11:28

VERY interesting and VERY helpful! That's actually been my experience with carbs even while carb adapted....if I ate much carbs or sugar at anytime other than DURING endurance work AFTER I'd begun to sweat, I'd get an adverse flush in the face dizzy reaction. During an event, no problem, burns like gasoline. Even before, with weigh lifting, carbs make me feel crappy, PWO or not. I only felt they were useful and well tolerated, and utilized, when my heart was high and my legs were hot. – animaleater May 26 2012 at 2:28

So, could you give me the minimum/optimum grams of carb per kilo of bodyweight per hour of on the spot endurance output that you recommend? Perhaps it's the exact amount of carbs burned per hour, or a tad less, by the muscles and heart. During my carb fueled endurance days, I followed the proven cycling recommendation of 1g/kg/hr formula. That's for a carb burner, not a keto adapted person. I tried incidentally to eat 50g or starch PWO after heavy weight training, and it really messed me up. – animaleater May 26 2012 at 2:32

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Some low carbers probably perform worse ingesting carbs for extra athletic energy. Carbs immediately reduce peak fat burning for several days in a keto adapted individual. Low carb endurance atheletes employee a variety of individual strategies. There's good evidence that some low carbers shouldn't be "carbing up" at all. – Don May 26 2012 at 14:32

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Roseanne · Answer 3 · 2012-05-24 12:47:36Z UTC

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I don't really have an answer for you as I could have asked this question myself! Very eager to hear the answers you do receive, as there's got to be a way to have the best of both worlds. I'm ridiculously carb sensitive and ketosis is THE ideal as far as my body is concerned, but I'd love to be able to tolerate carbs and have some flexibility so that I know I'm not sacrificing either Leptin sensitivity or thyroid function. I've been thinking periodic refeeds but with specific carb sources only - I'll be experimenting over the next few months. If I find the magic formula, I'll spread the word. Good luck to you.

answered May 24 2012 at 12:47

Roseanne
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"I'm ridiculously carb sensitive and ketosis is THE ideal as far as my body is concerned".....AMEN to that! Me too exactly!! But Im also a damn good endurance athlete, and I need the best of both worlds to continue. I was a great cyclist, and I could speedhike up a mountain and back in one day peaks that others needed to overnight. Now I cant. Weightlifting, better. High heart rate endurance, no. I tried a carb load post weight lifting and my hunger signals went through the roof. – animaleater May 25 2012 at 6:35

I hear ya, animaleater. I did the same after an endurance event was finally completed and I was A WOMAN POSSESSED! (I'm not talking about junk food or sweets, either - but primal/paleo carbs) I lose any sense of control completely and the effects on both my body and mind are to the point that they scare me. It can't be normal. – Roseanne May 25 2012 at 23:51

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I feel the same way and experience that also. Carbs whacked me out before, when I was a glucose burner/adapted. Now that I'm keto/fat burning/adapted, carbs royally screw me up like some bad drug. People talk about being VLC and adapted, and having carbs only PWO a la leangains, but I tried it, and it sent me haywire! I can't be normal. It's sad. I'd like to be able to use carbs ONLY when I need them, during and after an endurance expenditure, and live in ketosis/fat burning mode otherwise. But, now that I'm fat adapted, I've become REALLY insulin resistant and carb intolerant! – animaleater May 26 2012 at 2:04

That's the point of my question. – animaleater May 26 2012 at 2:08

August · Answer 4 · 2012-05-24 16:06:42Z UTC

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I am beginning to think the anti-fructose crusade may have been a bit overboard and perhaps even just plain wrong. Peter recently pointed out some of the stuff I've heard is wrong, and Cliff recently put this interesting post up.
This lines up with personal experience. The sugars seem easier to deal with than the starches.
I am tempted to test fructose alone, but so far, I just use fruit, with the occasional bag of dates being the most concentrated source. I tend to eat them while walking. I am also trying out a tablespoon of honey before bed. It seems to help with sleep, but I do worry that I seem to be a bit heavier on the scale than usual.

answered May 24 2012 at 16:06

August
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Dates are still about 50/50 (fructose/glucose)... Personally, I think 70/30 is close to optimal, and so does Paul Jaminet: perfecthealthdiet.com/2012/01/… While I don't recommend it, if you really wanted to try out mainly fructose just drink some Agave Nectar... I put a little bit too much in a smoothie once and it gave me a pretty bad headache, so I'm going to avoid it in the future... – jjtitus May 24 2012 at 16:41

The 70/30 is (glucose/fructose), just to clarify – jjtitus May 24 2012 at 16:43

When I first was transitioning into meat/veggies only, I was still having fruit occasionally. On the days Id have it, I became RAVENOUSLY HUNGRY after I ate it. It royally messed up my hormonal hunger signals. Starch does too, but fruit REALLY does it. Dunno if its fructose, or just carbs in general. As a cyclist, I always made my own "powerbars" with brown rice mixed with honey and raisins to achieve a 66% starch, 33% sugar (with sugar being 50/50 glucose/fructose) mixture, which is what university testing has determined is the optimum for carb fueled endurance performance. – animaleater May 25 2012 at 6:40

But Cytosport Cytomax was my fuel of choice. I swear, that stuff is like drinking gasoline. Works like nothing else. But alas, Im off the carbs! – animaleater May 25 2012 at 6:41

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And ONE banana is enough to upset me. – animaleater May 26 2012 at 2:37

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jjtitus · Answer 5 · 2012-05-24 17:14:14Z UTC

Same situation here animaleater (I believe we've talked before about a similar topic), almost exactly so I'm really interested in seeing what other people have to say as well... I've experimented with everything from high carb to low carb, and everything in between. Currently, my optimal diet has been predominantly Very Low Carb (VLC) Paleo with Strategic Cabohydrate Replenishment Post Work Out (PWO) (see here for a more detailed description, I've actually been able to put on a few pounds of muscle since stalling doing only VLC Paleo).

Here's what I've discovered so far with trial and error (mostly error, haha):

1) I feel the best in Ketosis, especially mental clarity/sharpness (same as animaleater), so I try to maximize my time in this metabolic state... I IF every day for about 16 hours (8 hr feeding window, 2 meals).

2) Any amount of sugar/carbs during exercise makes me feel weak/unfocused and cramp up bad... this led me to hypothesize a couple things; when my body switches from ketosis to glucose metabolism I require more water (in ketosis your water storage is less), and switching out of a predominately "fat burning" metabolism during exercise is a bad idea (just run on ketones and stored glycogen, it's more efficient).

3) Carbs PWO made me feel "off" too, but the more I thought about it the more I realized it could just be dehydration (because my body wasn't prepared for the greater water demand). So, for the last month I've been eating carbs during the PWO meal only, in serving sizes of about 50-150 grams carbs (depending on intensity/duration of workout) and then hitting the water hard after the meal. This has alleviated most of the negative symptoms I was getting from adding the carbs previously. Obviously figuring out "How Much" when it comes to carbs is trial and error, but the 50-150 PWO has worked fine so far for replenishing my glycogen stores and sparing protein for muscle building purposes.

I know none of this is really scientific (although I got many of my ideas from research papers/studies and their results), and it's definitely mostly n=1 observations, but maybe give it a try and we can make it n=2.

how to use carbs occasionally when you live in ketosis?

5 Answers