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Hello fellow paleohackers.

I am 29, I practice Jiu Jitsu at least 3 times a week, I am in good shape, not overweight and have been paleo since October, LC probably between 50g and 100g of carbs.

Last December I got my blood tested and my TC and LDL were quite high.

TC 6.5 mmol/l = 251 mg/dl Triglycerides 0.7 mmol/l = 62 mg/dl HDL 1.4 mmol/l = 54 mg/dl LDL 4.8 mmol/l = 185 mg/dl

Lately I have also linked something I had been diagnosed for when I was a kid (histamine intolerance (HIT) causing severe urticaria), with some strange symptoms that I had nowadays (constant bloating, occasional diarrhea, sometimes hitching). I then started a low histamine version of my paleo diet which makes things much better (but it's quite annoying).

Now it seems that HIT is caused by low levels of diamine oxidase (DOA), which is a copper regulated enzyme. Jaminet in his book perfect health diet, suggests that the single most common cause of high LDL in low carb eaters is a copper deficiency.

I have now started supplementing copper and I am hoping to solve both issues. Anyone else in a similar boat? What are your thoughs?

*edit:

It is hard to see if you are copper deficient from labs as far as I know.

Nevertheless if you supplement with a small amount of copper daily you don't even get as much copper as you would if you'd eat liver once a week. My plan is to try to eat more liver and supplement less anyway. Jaminet in fact advises to supplement copper, but not zinc in general.

These are best zinc sources: http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=115

These are best copper sources: http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=53

It's easy to see how a paleo diet is easily shifted towards having more zinc (i.e. beef) and being deficient in copper if you are not eating liver.

*new edit/update

Some interesting studies relating copper deficiency and DOA deficiency: Plasma Diamine Oxidase Activity Is Greater in Copper-Adequate than Copper-Marginal or Copper-Deficient Rats ( http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/1/30.short )

Copper supplementation of adult men: effects on blood copper enzyme activities and indicators of cardiovascular disease risk. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9439530

edit #3: Robb Wolf just answered my question on his latest podcast:

http://robbwolf.com/2012/06/19/protein-limit-toxicity-episode-137/

He thinks there could be a causation between high LDL (although he says my values are pretty much OK), and histamine intolerance as this could cause chronic inflammation and hence rise LDL cholesterol.

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 Can you clarify if you have any semi-reliable evidence that you may be copper insufficient (labs, maybe?). I'd want to know I was in fact deficient before supplementing. Also, you might want to know more about your copper/zinc balance if you're supplementing copper only. – Christopher Gagnon May 24 2012 at 15:08
See above. Thanks – Roberto May 25 2012 at 8:16

5 Answers

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I'm a histadelic, and a mostly veggie diet keeps it well in check, and veggie diets are notorious for the copper load.

I've always thought that a vegetarian diet is just low in histamine (and histidine) in general, but maybe it does have something to do with copper also?

Btw, I get severely sick from offal like liver, and it's the same for other people I know with histamine problems as well, so I don't know about the connection with liver + copper.

It could also be the amount of folate too in liver, since folate is a big, big problem for histadelics, the mental problems associated with histadelia are sometimes even treated with blocking folate in the body. I am usually pretty stable mentally, but when supplementing with folate, for even a couple of days, I do go a bit "crazy".

The copper in liver does not seem to offset the problems of the histamine itself in liver, and also the folate of course.

And as for zinc; histadelia is treated with zinc, and b6, and it helps, so I don't know about the connection with the copper theory.

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Very interesting. I had not heard about histadelia (high histamine individuals) until recently. I wonder how histamine intolerance and histadelia relates and how can one discriminate. I mean in HIT you basically can eat a bit of food with histamine until you go past the threshold, so it could be that you are not able to properly break down histamine (DOA etc), or that you are just starting from a higher level? What kind of symptoms you get from histadelia? I asked a question to Robb Wolf he answered on his latest podcast: robbwolf.com/2012/06/19/… – Roberto Jun 21 2012 at 7:40
The zinc thing is very interesting. – Roberto Jun 21 2012 at 7:43
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Eating just a small amount of beef liver each day will give you all the copper you could need. Even just 1oz of liverwurst from US Wellness meats for example would do the trick.

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Hi Roberto,

I just had blood work done by SpectraCell Laboratories. It analyzes these:

http://www.drhorvitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/spectracell-comprehensive-nutritional-panel.jpg

I came back deficient in:

Copper

Folate

Chromium.

I came back borderline in B12, Pantothenate, Choline, Insulin, Fructose, Spectrox Immunidex.

Though an insanely long elimination diet with repeated food challenges, I've concluded my problem is likely Histamine Intolerance. The 5 minute long sneezing fits when I eat a variety of foods high in histamine seem pretty straight forward. However, I wasn't 100% sure if the severe muscle cramping, tension headache, brain fog and sometimes migraines were related to histamines, or something else. When I googled "histamine intolerance" and Copper, I found your post.

Interestingly, the discussion which came with the lab results mentioned that folates are required for "metabolism of methionine, histidine, tryptophan, glycine, serine and formate." Is histidine metabolized into histamine? If so, I'm a bit concerned about supplementing with folate. However, I'm starting on chromium. copper & b12 today.

It would really be great if the root cause of my apparent histamine problem was really a mineral deficiency.

In any event, these lab results give me a bit of optimism, and some some objective measurements which I hope can help me dial in my diet. Through my diet eliminations, I have a much better understanding of food and its effect on me. I now know that eating cheddar cheese 3 meals in a row will provoke a blinding migraine. BTW, 3 years ago, I was getting about 24 migraines per year. In the last year, I had only 3 (all were after cheese and/or yogurt).

BTW, How do you do eating liver?

As to your concern about cholesterol:

I just had my first cholesterol test after going Paleo. I'll be reviewing the VAP scores with my Paleo Doctor (I found him on the Paleo Physicians Network). Here are the common #'s:

Total Cholesterol: from 196 -> 260

HDL: from 36 ->52

LDL from 144 to 192

Tri 82 to 121

Tot Chol / HDL from 5.44 to 5.17

Tri / HDL from 2.28 to 2.33

LDL / HDL from 4 to 3.69

Here's the VAP Stuff:

alt text

alt text

Thanks for your post, and your well formed question to Robb Wolf,

Caveman_Mike

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You're not going to want to become deficient in folate in an attempt to mitigate a histamine response. I've been having what I assume to be histamine intolerance lately and I linked it to a reduction in magnesium intake. Taking tons of copper, b6, and vitamin C made no difference, but 100mg of magnesium glycinate with each meal totally knocked it out. Something worth trying. You may still be deficient in the aforementioned minerals, but the test may have not been able to truly reflect your magnesium insufficiency. – Travis Culp♦ Mar 1 at 19:41
I had been taking lots of magnesium (to the point of bowel tolerance), and beyond. I had read lots about magnesium being helpful for muscle cramps. I have had several magnesium tests (including the RBC intra-cellular test), all showed I was ok mag wise. Interestingly, I just recently started taking magnesium ZMA (the Z is for Zinc). Someone who is deficient in copper should be aware that zinc competes with copper, and excess zinc and drive down copper. – CaveMan_Mike Mar 1 at 20:31
I think ZMA usually has like 30mg of Zn, which is a pretty substantial amount that might push you over the edge when you consider how much red meat has. Do you eat liver? – Travis Culp♦ Mar 1 at 20:50
Correct, 30 mg of zinc. I had liver for the first time last week (it was chicken liver). I read in perfect health diet that beef liver has orders of magnitude more than chicken liver. I'll be trying beef liver this weekend. I hope it itself doesn't contain histamines :-) BTW, have you found any good histamine specific support forums in your travels Travis? – CaveMan_Mike Mar 1 at 21:49
BTW, do you seem to have any issues with salt ? – CaveMan_Mike Mar 2 at 3:58
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According to:

http://www.dcnutrition.com/Minerals/detail.cfm?RecordNumber=82

Copper is present in about 21 different enzymes, and its importance has been known since 1928.

For example, one important enzyme is histaminase, which breaks down histamine. So all allergic people, who overproduce histamine, certainly need to ensure that they have normal copper levels.

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I'm just going to add that I've got HIGH copper, LOW zinc tested via urinalysis and also Spectracell intracellular blood test; and I have histamine intolerance. I just did a Nutra-eval via Genova labs and look forward to results in a couple of weeks. I'll keep you posted if you want.

I also have high LDL but I'm wondering if it's because of a cytochrome P450 detox problem (Phase 1)? I've had Cyrex Array 5 which showed equivocal antibodies (to cytochrome P450, and also according to my genetic results I'm a "slow" caffeine metabolizer. http://1.usa.gov/15EkSN9 I have a polymorphism in my CYP1A2 gene. (Re: slow caffeine metabolism and heart attack risk: I've also had a heart attack even a month after having given up caffeine/coffee. I think because of my histamine load; this was because I didn't understand histamine yet!) Just My Experience.

Edit to add: I don't have the MTHFR gene defect, but I do have other methylation cycle polymorphisms according to 23andme genetic results. From this I have learned that I should defer from sulphur foods, avoid B6 and more. I was doing opposite, so I'm doing another about-face with the diet.

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Do you supplement with zinc picolinate? – Travis Culp♦ Mar 23 at 18:06
I do, and have for at least three years, 50 mg. – dotslady Mar 23 at 21:18

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