Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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I am still not sure the jury is in on gluten being quite the absolute evil it is generally assumed to be in the paleosphere although I do agree we don't need grains, they are poor food sources compared to meat, fish, veg, roots etc and pretty much everyone is probably better off without gluten.

But.... I really, REALLY like a tiny (i.e. inch-square) piece of sourdough (usually rye) toast loaded with butter with my morning eggs. This is my ultimate paleo sticking point and why I can't really call myself primal/paleo though the rest of my diet is pretty clean. So my question is, if you are not celiac where gluten damages via an auto-immune response (been tested) have no autoimmune issues, have tried a gluten-free trial and felt no different without it or then re-introducing it, is any damage I am potentially causing via the gliadin/leaky gut hypothesis related to the dose of gluten I am ingesting?

I have read Chris Masterjohn, who I think is a pretty solid researcher, and I think, Stephan Guyenet, both state that there are no hard studies that prove gluten causes leaky gut however I have read enough about the possible effect on zonulin that in turn causes leaky gut to never eat much of the stuff again. But is a tiny amount (and, obsessive that I am, I've worked out it is probably only about 20mg of gluten at most!) Is this going to cause me leaky gut/arthritis/who-knows-what in the future - thoughts?

Obviously I realise there is no hard answer to this, it is my life and actually I feel the continued stress of wrestling over whether I should or should not be eating gluten is more likely to trigger ill health but I am open to opinion!

flag	asked Jun 16 2012 at 6:56 Karen 433●2●10

Too many disclaimers in the question...."potentially damaging"????....if you want to live a long and healthy life I'd eat the bread. Stressing out about it will take 5 years off your life, while if you're non-celiac gluten itself will shorten your life by 5 seconds. Have some perspective on what REAL health dangers are. Being a hypochondriac is the greater danger. – thhq Jun 20 2012 at 14:36

Bread-Eating Beelzebub · Answer 1 · 2012-06-16 21:03:01Z UTC

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There is no evidence that gluten causes increased gut permeability in healthy people, just some speculation based on animal models and a letter from a journey about gliadin, not gluten. Do you given know that you have increased gut permeability? Studies show that a lot of conditions people here blame on it are not actually related to it.

You can go with the speculation based on animal models and stress out about it, or you can ask yourself if you are really showing any evidence of harm.

Gluten isn't evil. Only moral beings can be evil.

answered Jun 16 2012 at 21:03

Bread-Eating Beelzebub
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Melissa, gluten is evil because we cannot see the harm it is doing, it is invisible to an eye. It is a silent killer. It is like a slow-acting arsenic or slow-acting poison that does the damage without us being aware of it. This has been my personal experience and, from what I can see, an issue for many people who learn that they are gluten intolerant. – VB Jun 17 2012 at 0:26

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I agree, Melissa, that gluten has been unfairly demonised, especially in the paleo world. I've searched and searched for hard evidence that it causes increased gut permeability in healthy people and found none. It really seems a bit much to label it some kind of insiduous killer...BUT, and VB, I know you've had bad personal experience with gluten, I appreciate there will always be some people who either have celiac or gluten intolerance for whom it sadly does cause problems which may be hidden for some time. I too suspect, that lots of conditions are blamed on it that are not related. – Karen Jun 17 2012 at 6:49

VB, you realize that on vegan message boards people say the same thing about meat? Evidence is evidence and if there is no evidence it's causing you harm, what are you supposed to do? Just be paranoid based on really poor scientific evidence? – Bread-Eating Beelzebub Jun 17 2012 at 13:23

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that's why I totally still recommend eliminating it, but just because it's bad for you, doesn't mean it's poison for everyone. Broccoli gave me severe stomach cramps, is broccoli bad? No, my gut bacteria sucks. – Bread-Eating Beelzebub Jun 18 2012 at 23:50

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I agree with Melissa, as always. – Korion Jun 20 2012 at 12:34

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Karen P. · Answer 2 · 2012-06-16 16:24:42Z UTC

As an anecdotal answer, I can say that an isolated gluten off-plan food choice doesn't seem to wreak much havoc, but if I dare try to have a few in a row (like on vacation or something), then I'm in trouble. Like, tied-up-in-knots-can't-get-off-the-couch-trouble. I also sometimes get a fabulous case of joint inflammation. On vacation a few months ago, my jaw was so inflamed that my teeth didn't line up correctly. Yowza. Thankfully, I knew what it was and didn't go to the dentist where they would've done who-knows-what damage and probably diagnosed me with TMJ.

The thing that skeeves me out about gluten and such is that we don't get to control how it affects us. It may be intestinal, it may not. It could be neurological, it could go for our heart, our joints...such is the way of the immune response.

After following some of Kurt Harris's musings on the immune system, I think he's right that gluten itself is not evil. It's our immune response that is problematic. So you may just be one of the lucky ones who doesn't respond this way. In which case, I'd say, go for your morning toast!

But then...how do you know for sure? The neurological thing in particular really worries me.

VB · Answer 3 · 2012-06-18 10:52:30Z UTC

I don't really know the answer to your question and I hope there will be some really really brainy people on this board that will answer it BUT

I do have a personal observation (recent) that I thought was very odd and interesting.

I follow a very strict Paleo except on some days (very very rarely, like once or twice per month) I allow myself a "cheat".

I am gluten intolerant and feel much much better after giving up gluten, although developed all kinds of other intolerances.

So, about a month or two ago I bought gluten-free chocolate ice-cream. I had a very very bad reaction after I ate it. I thought I would die. Really. I prayed the whole night that I would be okay in the morning. The pain was just agonizing and excruciating.

Then a week ago I bought an ice-cream (same brand) that clearly had gluten (it even stated that it has traces of gluten on the box). I knew I would get sick, and I expected the worse.

Yes, I had "glutened" reaction but it was very mild compared to the gluten-free version. So I am puzzled now. What is it about gluten-free ice-cream that makes me so sick? I bet the gluten-free version has more chemical additives so my body reacted so violently. Not sure.

So to answer your question - if you like it so much, go ahead and eat it, but I would not make it a regular habit. Not because it has gluten (and gluten is evil, it is true), not because it is Neolithic, but because it is processed and depleted on nutrients that your body so desperately needs. As Terry Wahls put it, "You need to realize that the only person your are cheating is yourself." If it makes you feel good - why deprive yourself?

My parents actually knew a person who was allergic to strawberries. Allergic to the point of developing severe asphyxiation caused by an asthma attack (or asthma-like symptoms). The problem was that person also loved strawberries. He knew that strawberries would put him on a brink of dying, yet he wanted them so much... he ate the whole plate. I remember he told my dad that he did not care if he die or not as long as he has some strawberries.

If you really love that bread, why deprive yourself? I'd say - give in your craving. You only live once. Enjoy.

P.S. If you were gluten intolerant or a celiac my answer would be different. But it is still would be your choice.

Jeff · Answer 4 · 2012-06-16 15:41:33Z UTC

I think that if you're not one of the predisposed who make more zonulin then the dose will make the poison.

This small study suggests that there is some immune response in all people, but I would think a small piece of bread a day will be much easier to tolerate than a regular diet of pizza/cereal/pasta, etc

http://gut.bmj.com/content/56/6/889.extract

Andrea · Answer 5 · 2012-06-16 19:40:34Z UTC

It is my understanding that if you have leaky gut, there is no safe or acceptable amount of gluten and that as long as you continue to have any kind of exposure you will never fully heal. Once it is healed, you may be able to tolerate small amounts sporadically.

If you do not have leaky gut or any kind of gluten sensitivity and you really love your little piece of toast every morning, chalk it up to your 20% and be done with it.

As someone with an autoimmune disease and leaky gut who LOVES rye toast with butter...I am jealous. But if you can handle it, good for you!

Michael · Answer 6 · 2012-06-16 09:22:27Z UTC

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Sourdough is at least a far better cheat than modern "synthetic" bread with artificially increased amount of gluten. They use gluten for bulking, a "better" taste and texture.

Do you refer to? http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/04/what-no-one-is-saying-about-zonulin-is.html

Current science is not settled yet.

It is also possible that people without gluten sensitivity can well handle gluten. Nevertheless, gluten is a low budget source of proteins of questionable quality. Its up to you to.

answered Jun 16 2012 at 9:22

Michael
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Yes, I did read that post and also asked in a comment to which chris replied, as you say, the jury is still out and also that he had never seen a convincing study to show gluten would cause a leaky gut. Sensibly he suggested taking the results of a gluten free trial and making your own decision. And sourdough IS a better cheat I think, as is rye versus wheat, and better tasting than commercial bread too! – Karen Jun 16 2012 at 10:15

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Yes, sourdough is better. Just another thought: if gluten causes only minor inflammation, without immediate responses, one may in the long run develop minor health problems which are then not linked to gluten anymore. Well, I think those issues are multifactorial and we can hope that science will unfold the links more precisely one day. regards. – Michael Jun 16 2012 at 12:06

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Karen, another thought. Its not all about gluten. In Germany they found out, that substances which have been breed in the wheat plants to mimic insecticides can cause celiac like symptoms. Those proteins increase the robustness of wheat, but may decrease your health. Here we have the opportunity to take part in large scale experiments ;). – Michael Jun 16 2012 at 12:14

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Yes, Michael, that is exactly the only thing that keeps me from eating my beloved sourdough with impunity. That there is a possibility each time I eat it there is some minor inflammation which might cumulatively add up to some problems down the line does worry me a bit. But then I think life's too short and all these ifs and buts could be applied to endless things, including, as I mentioned above, the cumulative effect of stressing about what one eats! You are right to be more suspicious of wheat than other gluten grains I think which is why I mostly eat rye. – Karen Jun 16 2012 at 13:14

Karen, how do you know rye does not have it? @ Michael - thank you so much!!! I did not know! – VB Jun 17 2012 at 1:22

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Anony · Answer 7 · 2012-06-20 07:01:01Z UTC

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Here is an article that might help you reconsider that sour dough bread-- http://towncenterwellness.com/announcements/dangers-of-wheat-germ-agglutinin-wga/

edited Jun 20 2012 at 7:01

answered Jun 20 2012 at 6:52

Anony
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	Thanks for the link, all interesting stuff and actually I'm still torn enough over whether it could be harmful to be trying another gluten-free trial, it's not THAT big a deal having eggs with just butter, no toast, after all and I'll really see if I notice a difference. – Karen Jun 20 2012 at 9:58
	I am betting that grains will be the next bad health poster child superceding cigarettes--the link from towncenterwellness is not speaking about gluten sensitive people--it is talking about humans. And with an autoimmune response wearing out everyone's system, we are all subject to more disease...removing the offensive factor seems simple enough and alot better than enriching pharma companies with need for their products! – Anony Jun 21 2012 at 1:41

raydawg · Answer 8 · 2012-06-20 10:10:04Z UTC

There's a podcast episode here "Detecting Gluten Sensitivity with Dr. Thomas O'Bryan 01/10 by Underground Wellness | Blog Talk Radio" where Dr. O'Bryan describes how a gluten sensitive nun, taking in a single wafer, got enough damage to her gut, to prevent it from healing, and how this wafer has something like 1/8th of the size of a fingernail's worth of gluten (or was it gliadin) in it, but it's enough to continue the damage.

It may well be dose dependent in non-sensitive people, but for those of us who are, it's very damaging stuff.

There may well be a few people out there with a genetic adaptation to grains that allows them to not be affected, but for the rest, it's toxic stuff.

Is potential gluten exposure damage in non-celiacs dose related?

8 Answers