Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

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I find it interesting that most paleo and LC advocates vigorously maintain the position that high saturated fat consumption is harmless. In spite of the fact that lots of people continually pop up on this forum with high cholesterol levels, apparently brought about by their high sat-fat intake.

Of course the usual reply to this fact is that it's the benign large-fluffy LDL which is rising, so no harm done, even if your high LDL numbers freak out your lipophobic doctor.

And yet...

It is my understanding that most of the HG's studied have had LOW LDL levels? Perhaps why Cordain and Wolf do NOT agree with high sat-fat intake. In fact, Cordain references two separate "autopsies" done on ancient Intuit "mummies" which showed they had seriously clogged up arteries. (Though their high intake of POLY-fats may also have played a role in that?)

Another disturbing trend I notice among LC/Paleo folks is high fasting blood sugar levels. Some even being diagnosed as "pre-diabetic" while on the very diet that is supposed to CURE high blood sugar!

I'm aware of the 'physiological insulin resistance" theory which is supposedly the body's way of ensuring the brain gets enough glucose while on LC diet. But I truly wonder if perhaps high sat-fat intake is causing insulin resistance in folks?

So all in all, I'm currently a bit wary of a high sat-fat version of LC/Paleo. As is Cordain, Devaney, and Wolf, so I'm in good company.

I'd love to be proved wrong on this, as I LOVE fatty meats and cream in my coffee. (<:

But I'm curious if any of you follow a lower sat-fat version of paleo for any of the reason I've cited above, or for other reasons?

edited Jun 21 at 13:04

asked Jun 21 at 12:56

Mystery Man X
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I think that Paul Jaminet is correct when he says for people trying to lose weight, fat calories should be reduced. – Dave S. Jun 21 at 13:23

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Paul says that calories should be reduced, because, duh. But his reasoning is that his diet already suggests the lowest carbohydrate and protein intakes that he's comfortable with, so the only thing that you can reduce on his diet is fat. But suppose you're not on his diet, then things might be different for you. You might end up reducing carbohydrate because you were already eating more carbs. – Stabby Jun 21 at 21:49

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Paul on cholesterol in hunter-gatherers: perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/07/… It's not uniform. It's not advantageous, and probably indicative of chronic infection. And there is no saying that the blood tests of hunter-gatherers can tell us much, because of confounders like pathogens and exercise levels. That's one piece of the puzzle. I don't think that anything that raises your LDL levels increases your risk for heart disease because it doesn't work like that in the body, it has more to do with oxidized LDL and arterial inflammation... – Stabby Jun 21 at 21:52

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If cholesterol goes higher because of poor clearance then that is probably bad. Or because you need more cholesterol to repair your damaged tissues, then that's bad. But more synthesis of cholesterol is probably a good thing. That being said Travis Culp may come along and point out that in some people dairy fats can cause huge increases in cholesterol (although in some people they only cause a small increase that means nothing) and that large increase may actually be indicative of poor LDL metabolism and more time in the blood and more chance to oxidize. So those people may be right to... – Stabby Jun 21 at 21:54

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eliminate dairy fats. – Stabby Jun 21 at 21:54

show 3 more comments

mzrdnan · Answer 1 · 2012-06-21 13:06:50Z UTC

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Ahhh I tried the high fat/high protein LC paleo thing ... went to the doctor and had really high cholesterol levels, and also put on like 10kg .... this did not improve my previous state at all... I have now reduced my fat consumption of sat-fats and actually increased my carbs, but still high protein and have lost 4kg in a month, my cholesterol is back to perfect too!

answered Jun 21 at 13:06

mzrdnan
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Ive been on VLCarb, high fat, moderate protein for 6 months. Lost tonnes of body fat, got much stronger, my fitness has skyrocketed. My daily energy levels are stable and good, and I am generally in a good mood and do not get stressed throughout the day anymore. My skin has also cleared up perfectly. I even seem to have got smarter, but thats just because my brain is running better and feels "cleaner". Thats just my experience anyway, there it is. Also FYI, youre not supposed to eat high amounts of protein when going low carb. Read about mTOR pathway, it's in "Primal Body, Primal Mind" – Carl D Jun 21 at 13:17

I was worried about maintaining lean muscle, but at the same time wanted to get my body more efficient at using fat stores for energy...haha epic fail...but to each their own :) it's all a big n=1 – mzrdnan Jun 21 at 13:31

@ mxrdnan- carbohydrates are protein sparing, so you'll have an easier time maintaining muscle if you're eating carbs in place of fat. UNless you are taking steroids to preserve muscle mass when dieting (steroids increase both anabolic hormones and gluconeogensis efficiency), (controlled) carbs are your friend. – foreveryoung Jun 21 at 14:29

Happy Now · Answer 2 · 2012-06-21 17:32:34Z UTC

I don't think we can lump all saturated fat in the same category because different saturated fats have different effects on the body.

The trend with a spike in cholesterol numbers and blood sugar I've noticed around here has been with people using dairy-based saturated fat to make up a large portion of their calories, which is insulin spiking (and could speak for the difference in its own right), and unless consumed only raw and collected during times of natural calf feeding is filled with hormones that could be detrimental to lipid profiles. Drinking pints of cream does seem to have gotten a few people into weird lipid territory and high fasting blood sugar, whereas cooking with tallow and lard hasn't from what I've observed here.

Several people I've seen on here, to improve their numbers have experimented with swapping out the cream for tallow and other animal body fats, and their numbers have returned to normal 200's, down from 350+ in some cases.

Cordain's interpretation of the mummy autopsies doesn't tell the whole story either. There are many reasons for clogged arteries, and until recently in our history (and still in many 3rd world kitchens) smoke exposure from cooking without good ventilation was a prime candidate. Viral infections can also be a culprit.

Personally, my numbers only seem to keep improving with a diet that leans more towards a ratio of 60+% animal and coconut fat, with modest amounts of butter, and a spoonful of cream here and there, moderate protein and carbs, and eating to satiety. When I was on a calorie restricted supposedly health conscious doctor prescribed diet, my cholesterol numbers were in the high 300's (with hdl in the 40's), and now are in the low 200's (with hdl in the 60's).

Tyler F · Answer 3 · 2012-09-03 20:16:56Z UTC

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There was a thread a while back on how butter caused some people's TC to spike. I don't remember if it was specifically butter, or all saturated fats, though.

The solution? If you're worried about TC and you are one of those people, don't eat as much of what makes your TC spike. I'm not one of those people, and a large portion of my fat intake (which is a large portion of my food intake) is saturated, and my cholesterol levels are perfect, even by outdated risk markers (such as TC).

edited Sep 3 at 20:16

answered Jun 21 at 13:25

Tyler F
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If I recall that thread correctly,it seemed that the saturated fatty acids in butter/dairy had more powerful effects in raising cholesterol,at least in certain people. – Higgs Jun 21 at 17:14

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I haven't had my own cholesterol tested in years, but my husband just had his tested and his numbers were also perfect. He eats what I make, which is isn't puposely "high fat" but I don't go out of my way to lower the fat that is in meat, etc. I don't particularly like gnawing on the fatty bit of a pork chop or chicken skin that isn't really crispy, so I'll give those bits to my husband and he wolfs them down. He eats chunks of pure animal fat. Relatively frequently. – Kay Jun 21 at 18:00

Roberto · Answer 4 · 2012-06-21 13:44:16Z UTC

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Robb Wolf is not against sat-fat consumption.

answered Jun 21 at 13:44

Roberto
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I have read his book, and my recollection is that he has a nuanced view of sat-fats. Some being benign, some perhaps not so benign. Though he is certainly not so across-the-board anti sat-fat as Devaney. – Mystery Man X Jun 21 at 14:41

Diane · Answer 5 · 2012-06-21 17:01:05Z UTC

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I know I read somewhere that many of the HGs that had lower cholesterol numbers also had parasites and thus the ideal we are supposed to reach may be skewed since we modern folk have fewer parasites. Also if my memory serves, HGs with fewer parasites have TC levels in the 200s like modern folk.

answered Jun 21 at 17:01

Diane
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	HGs don't have uniform cholesterol levels. Masterjohn on Kresser's podcast mentioned the Massai at 150ish and the Kitavans at 220ish. – Matt Jun 21 at 17:35
	Both higher than western recommendations, he proposed that was a good "normal" range for cholesterol. – Matt Jun 21 at 17:36

epaleocookbooks · Answer 6 · 2012-06-21 17:14:34Z UTC

I've done the high sat-fat paleo version before, and I cut that back because I didn't lose any weight on it. If anything, I gained a few pounds. I also just felt crappy and heavy. I feel better when I get my protein from leaner sources. I'd say that I currently eat a moderate sat-fat diet, moreso than a low sat-fat. Most of my fat comes from olive oil, eggs, almonds, 90/10 beef and lean cuts of pork. I don't eat butter or fry anything, so there's no lard in my diet. I do eat more bacon than I should, but still far less than the average bacon fan. Like bachcole, I don't avoid saturated fats per say, I just don't care for most of them.

bachcole · Answer 7 · 2012-06-21 14:26:04Z UTC

Heavy duty fat just doesn't appeal much to me, except perhaps butter, which I use as a dip for my celery "dessert". I have to eat avocados just to make sure I get enough fat. I eat raw salmon, well-cultured kefir for my fat. So, I guess I don't qualify as a test subject for high saturated fat. I don't avoid it. I just don't eat it much because it does not appeal to me.

MrsD · Answer 8 · 2012-09-03 20:40:41Z UTC

I do the high fat, medium protein thing most of the time my cholesterol numbers are perfect!

I eat lashings of coconut oil, chorizo, broth, bacon and sausage...

Check out Taubes blog where he actually posted his cholesterol numbers and also check out

Peter Attia

http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

It's not one size fits all..

KA24 · Answer 9 · 2012-09-03 20:40:53Z UTC

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The biggest mistake, as per usual, is being so liberal with the term "saturated fat."

Type and quality is huge. Gorging on every possible saturated fat is stupid. So is avoiding any possible saturated fat.

answered Sep 3 at 20:40

KA24
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Anyone doing a lower sat-fat paleo-diet?

9 Answers