Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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So caffeine and the stimulant in chocolate raises insulin. Insulin shuts down fat oxidation. So, if you are in ketosis, on VLC, won't drinking coffee or eating raw dark chocolate shut of that nice fat burning mode? I know when I am VLC, if I have ANY, I mean a few SIPS of tea or nibbles of cacao, I IMMEDIATELY get that "hormonally hungry" feeling.

Any thoughts?

EDIT

So I've found that on meat/fat only days, in Ketosis, caffeine or stimulants of any kind make me feel terrible, and VERY hormonally hungry between meals (with the same timing and calories that on non-caffeine days are satiating). I literally can scarcely make it to my next meal, feeling utterly starved and losing all concentration.

However, on carb-up days after exercise, I can eat some chocolate or drink some tea, and while I feel quite stimulated (perhaps too much, I seem to be sensitive), it isn't a bad feeling, and I don't get the hunger afterwards.

Interesting.

edited Jul 23 at 11:54

asked Jul 10 at 9:06

animaleater
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If sipping tea makes you "hormonally hungry", whatever that means, it's in your head. That has nothing to do with insulin or fat-burning. – ben61820 Jul 10 at 12:27

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if i'm not mistaken, thinking ABOUT food raises insulin levels. ANYTIME you eat ANYTHING, your insulin levels rises. so it may or may not be all in this person's head.... however, Insulin release also triggers the "i'm satisfied" hormones in the body. So that's the confusing bit .... wait, then it is all in the head.. ::scratches:: – Sunshine Jul 10 at 13:33

Drink W A T E R – Bill1102inf Jul 23 at 12:09

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Link? The info seems to be all over the map on caffeine. A quick search turned up studies finding: Caffeine causes/prevents insulin resistance. Caffeine prevents/worsens diabetes. Caffeine hinders/helps weight loss. All from "legit" sites like the Mayo clinic and the American Diabetes Assoc. Its seems that for every Caffeine study saying one thing, there seems to be a study saying the exact opposite. – Talldog Jul 23 at 15:44

I drink plenty of water. – animaleater Jul 24 at 0:09

Mscott · Answer 1 · 2012-07-10 09:20:06Z UTC

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Insulin does not just throw a kill switch on fat oxidation. The levels of numerous hormones affect the rate of fatty acid oxidation at any given time. Epinephrine, which stimulants like caffeine raises, increases fatty acid oxidation. I couldn't say for sure right now, but I have read that caffeine and theobromine tend to increase fatty acid oxidation.

As far as your hunger, if such foods do raise insulin (I was unaware they did), that might cause low blood sugar, which can result in hunger. But I'm only speculating, it could be other things.

answered Jul 10 at 9:20

Mscott
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Glad you point out how insulin doesn't kill fat-burning necessarily. as long as one is in a caloric deficit, insulin's actions will not prevent burning of fat. – ben61820 Jul 10 at 12:48

So far as I know caffeine does not have any effect on beta oxidation of fatty acids. But maybe VLC creates a perfect storm and disrupts normal fat metabolism. – thhq Jul 10 at 12:58

thhq-Here's a study I'd remembered reading about that: ajcn.org/content/79/1/40.short – Mscott Jul 10 at 18:12

Caffeine, for most people, improves insulin sensitivity, and like Mscott said, also increases fatty acid oxidation. – RaiseFitness Jul 23 at 13:19

David Moss · Answer 2 · 2012-07-10 09:48:50Z UTC

Caffeine does raise insulin, but it also causes insulin resistance- if it didn't, it wouldn't have the effect that it does of forcing energy (fat and glucose) into the bloodstream.

I think the most likely cause of your immediate hunger is the effect of either the caffeine or the tannins on your gut, which would stimulate appetite (stimulating gastric acid, speeding gastric emptying etc.).

RaiseFitness · Answer 3 · 2012-07-10 12:35:38Z UTC

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Funny, studies have shown caffeine to both increase insulin sensitivity and to suppress appetite.

answered Jul 10 at 12:35

RaiseFitness
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	Yep...that's why drug store diet pills contain tons of caffeine. – MathGirl72 Jul 10 at 12:55
	The ones I've seen show cafffeine to cause insulin resistance (as per David Moss). – Dave S. Jul 10 at 13:26

Jamie · Answer 4 · 2012-07-10 09:58:45Z UTC

Chocolates primary stimulants are theobromine, and phenethylamine, although theobromine is a xanthine family compound like caffiene, and there is a tiny amount of caffiene in chocolate. Personally chocamine or chocolate extracts stimulant action kicks caffienes or coffees behind, being both stronger and unlike caffiene, slightly mood boosting.

It seems little known to many people however, chocolate (or rather raw unprocessed cacao) is quite full of carbs apparently.

I cant remember if they are fibre or sugar or what though. I only know because its considered a forbidden food on the SCD diet because of its carb content (dark or not), and I spent a while trying to find what kind it was, but ive forgotten what I found.

That said, rabid knee shaking fear of a macronutrient probably isnt healthy. Besides you could always switch to chocamine, which has no sugar or carbs (but it is pretty strong tho, as mentioned, stronger than coffee or energy drinks, although nothing druglike)

Rob · Answer 5 · 2012-07-10 11:24:57Z UTC

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I lost a good bit of weight while drinking my usual 6 cups a day. I also toss a heaping teaspoon of navitas cocao powder into my whey shakes a couple of times a day. None of this knocked me out of ketosis.

Sure there's no sugar in that dark chocolate?

answered Jul 10 at 11:24

Rob
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	Raw, 100% cacao powder. I think my system just doesn't like stimulants. – animaleater Jul 10 at 11:32
	Or it's having a fit because it's gross. =) – MathGirl72 Jul 10 at 12:55

ben61820 · Answer 6 · 2012-07-10 12:26:20Z UTC

Black, plain coffee won't raise your insulin in any meaningful way.

What shuts down any and all fat-burning is eating enough calories to support your energy needs (read: maintenance) and/or eating more than those amount of calories.

You will burn bodyfat while in some sort of caloric deficit. If you are in caloric deficit you won't have to worry about insulin.

thhq · Answer 7 · 2012-07-10 13:02:00Z UTC

? Have you had tests done to determine whether your insulin level rises in response to tea-sipping? It's not all that clear that caffeine raises insulin levels.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/coffee-diabetes-and-weight-control-research-review.html

Granted these studies were not done on VLC dieters. In your VLC-state of ketosis maybe it is possible that stimulants like caffeine have that effect. Show us the numbers!

Evelyn aka CarbSane · Answer 8 · 2012-07-10 14:12:41Z UTC

Oh lordy. Fat burning vs. carb burning is irrelevant. If you have a lower RQ (burn more fat vs. carb) or a higher one, it doesn't matter. It's like if you have a mixed fuel furnace. You put oil and coal in it. The furnace burns more oil than coal when that tank is more full, but it's still heating the same home. Is the furnace running on 70% oil more of a "fat burning" furnace than one running on 70% coal.

I don't think so.

Nutritional ketosis and being a fat burning beast are gimmicks people.

SoloX · Answer 9 · 2012-07-23 14:26:33Z UTC

Insulin is not the only way to stop/start fat storage/burning: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

Caffeine potentially decreases insulin sensitivity: http://examine.com/supplements/Caffeine/#xmain_clinical_results

Does caffeine (or chocolate) raise insulin, thereby stopping fat burning (ketosis)?

9 Answers