Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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Doing leangains. My goal is to reach 5-6% bodyfat, reset my fat set-point, keep it there, then add calories slowly leangains recomp style to build muscle.

I IF, eat 2 times between 12pm-8pm, train fasted 11am. 2000cal high carb really low fat workout days, 1400cal high fat zero carb rest days.

I've gotten below 8-9%BF this way, but the going is slow. On rest days I feel really zapped of energy, and hungry, ESP two of them in a row.

I've come from 6mo of zero carb keto before, so I'm keto-fat-adapted. The zapped feeling is even more pronounced if, on rest days, I do some brisk walking or light cycling near the end of my IF period @10am-12pm. I figured this would burn more fat effectively, but I feel depleted as I get low cal that day and no carbs. We're talking very light exercise here.

Leangains is not a low carb diet, and most folks eat some carbs, just low carbs, on rest days. I reasoned maintaining the keto adaptation ability on rest days would be a good idea to rest my insulin-metabolism-system and prime me for post workout carb load absorption, so I've done zero.

For those doing leangains who do eat carbs on rest days, how much, at what meal (one or both), and how many carbs do you eat?

How about comparing Keifer's Carb Backloading to leangains, where you eat your carbs at night, and basically stay keto on rest days (the latter of which I already do)?

What would be the advantages / disadvantages to being zero carb rest days vs a little?

If I do add some carbs on rest days, I figured I'd eat my first meal meat-fat only as I've been doing, and then have a lean meat and small carb meal my second and last meal. How's that sound? Or, would it be better to do the reverse and have the lean meat and a little carbs for my first meal (and after my walking/cycling when I do that)?

flag	asked Sep 30 at 0:01 animaleater 3,268●11●32

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Keto-adapted is not a permanent state. If you eat 2000 cals of high-carb a few days a week, you are not keto-adapted anymore. – Ambimorph Nov 15 at 6:39

crightfunnylol · Answer 1 · 2012-09-30 15:17:09Z UTC

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i do pretty much the same as you animaleater. works fairly well for me! i would see any disadventage unless you low carb for a few days in a row(strenth loss). keep doing what you doing!

answered Sep 30 at 15:17

crightfunnylol
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	i meant wouldnt* – crightfunnylol Sep 30 at 15:18
	Well, prob is at wo/rest-2000/1400-high carb low fat/zero carb high fat, I'm feeling zapped and starved on rest days, and my fat loss has stalled. That's why I'm looking to change it up and add carbs rest days, keeping calories the same. I'm wondering whether to add them first meal or last. – animaleater Sep 30 at 22:48
	You don't get strength loss from doing a low carb diet for a few days. You get it from eating too little fat. – nthmost Oct 27 at 17:13
	Or too few cals. Agreed, when I was zero carb eating tons of meat and fat without cal restriction, I was always strong. – animaleater Nov 15 at 1:34

PhysiqueRescue · Answer 2 · 2012-09-30 19:24:02Z UTC

I do a similar protocol to what you mention (LeanGains coupled with carb backloading). Here are my observations. I'm also doing some n=1 with a minimal workout regimen (20 minute total body suspension workout 3 times per week) for about 3 weeks and will continue for at least 2 more. I would speak to the strength increases, however I feel it is mainly neuromuscular adaptation at this point. I have noticed improvements in my metabolic conditioning and endurance. Body composition has been favorable (less fat, maintain muscle).

I consume bulletproof coffee in the morning. I always work out fasted and break the fast post workout with a high carb meal. I've also been letting the fast continue for bit post workout. I've been eating a lot of sushi lately, but my favorite is with sweet potatoes. My fruit consumption is mainly avocados and some berries. In a nutshell the carb sources are: non-starchy vegetables, sweet potatoes, and white rice. On rest days I consume just the non starchy vegetables (spinach, kale, and broccoli). I've not been checking for keto, but I've noticed continual gains in favorable body comp.

Matt
PhysiqueRescue.com

Brandau · Answer 3 · 2012-10-16 23:21:03Z UTC

i personally do a leangains type IF but i do not do the high carb on the training day. i use to do the carb days but they made me soo tired.

i tried all different kinds of carbs. even doing the paleo type ones, tubers, veggies, and fruit, and i still was bogged down.

so now i do low carb throughout the week and then do a moderate carb "refeed" during the weekend. i also try to do some kind of high intensity work each day on the weekend when i do moderate carbs.

i found that doing some carbs with a good amount of protein and fat does not make me tired but allows me to get some carbs in. examples are boneless wings(breaded), (very)loaded potato with some kind of meat, potatoes with chicken nuggets mixed in, and sometimes brown rice with chicken.

basically, and im sure youve heard this, it comes down to what works for you. i kept trying to find what other people did that worked, but until i started trying things out myself and based on my body, none of that worked for me. experiment, record, and learn.

Tom_S · Answer 4 · 2012-11-14 22:35:48Z UTC

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My comment might be a little dated, but I think it's relevant.

I actually hired Andy for 12 weeks and got a macro break down from him and regular consultations. Under his program he does not recommend ZERO carb on rest days by any means, usually the suggestion is to get two pieces of fruit and leave it at that. I don't see any benefit to going zero carb on these days, since it takes more than 24 hours to go into ketosis and that's not ever going to happen on a leangains protocol since it involves regular carb cycling.

Also, the deficit you need to reach bf percentages below 8-10 are to the point where, no matter what, you're going to be hungry more than half the time. That's why I gave up on my abs - I got to pretty solid four pack but I was miserable on all my rest days from eating so few calories. It's just not sustainable unless you're a model and your career demands it. Personally, I hated it even though I looked great. Being hungry on rest days is just kind of the ugly dark side of leangains they don't talk about. You can't feel satiated to the max and keep your abs unless you're genetically predisposed to that physique to begin with (which I am not).

answered Nov 14 at 22:35

Tom_S
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	Fantastic comment. Exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for man! So you hired Andy from rippedbody.jp? Was debating on doing that. He recommends a couple peices of fruit as carbs on rest days, not starch? Ive been at 1900wo/1300 rest for a while, zero carb rest. Training was two meals 12pm and 7pm 140g starch each meal, 140lbs bodyweight. Been reading that 1g/lb carb/BW is best for fat loss, so I'm trying to eat carb only after wo and evening meal just meat/fat. How many carbs/lb bodyweight wo/rest days did he recommend? – animaleater Nov 15 at 1:43
	You've a good point about ketosis and carb cycling. Actually I've just never been able to really metabolize or tolerate carbs except directly after hard exercise. If I eat them on a rest day, or even just hours after training, I feel crappy. PWO they feel awesome. So it's less ketosis that I'm going for and more an avoidance of carbs. You're also right about having to feel hungry and crappy get down below 10%BF. I'm a climber and I need to be as light and strong as I can...and I just like to be low fat. – animaleater Nov 15 at 3:09
	Animaleater - Yes, I hired Andy from rippedbody.jp. You could do it if you want to, but to be completely honest all the information he uses is directly available on his site. He even includes the equation for calculating your macros based on body weight (at least to start). Once you get your initial macro break down from his equation, you just have to adjust based on your results. You track your measurements, like any good program. Your waist should be getting smaller and your arms, legs, and chest should be getting bigger. If this is happening, you're probably pretty close to a good macro- – Tom_S Nov 18 at 18:21
	(continued)-break down for your height and weight. If the opposite is going on, you should probably lower carbs on lifting days. If you're losing strength in the gym, you're not getting enough calories. It also depends if you're doing a standard recomp or a cut or slow bulking. Carb to body weight ratios don't equate to fat loss. It's a weekly deficit that will get you to the leanness you desire; this has never changed despite what the fitness industry would have you believe. It's not no carbs or no fat - it all boils down to calories when you're talking about sub-10 percent body fat. – Tom_S Nov 18 at 18:23
	Also, going back to carbs - on leangains these are REQUIRED on your lifting days. Thats where all your "good" size is going to come from. You need to eat a surplus on heavy lifting days if you want to put on muscle - it's not all about losing the fat. I had no muscle got to 10% and looked like I was starving because I hadn't been lifting heavy enough and building those core muscles I wanted so badly to show off. I don't wanna go way out on a trip with these comments but feel free to message me or shoot me an e-mail if you have more questions. – Tom_S Nov 18 at 18:26

JakeA · Answer 5 · 2012-09-30 01:53:21Z UTC

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I've seen that Keifer suggests eating carbs at night if at a low bodyfat percentage but I'd suggest asking at their forum. Dangerouslyhardcore.com forum. You could also check out reddit.com/r/leangains

I don't think this is the right forum for your needs. It seems like you're really advanced.

answered Sep 30 at 1:53

JakeA
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Thanks. Point taken, however, this forum does have some pretty advanced users, and paleohacks users are by far the most objective, helpful, prompt, advanced, and friendly of any forum. – animaleater Sep 30 at 4:27

Hopefully with all three together you can get the info you need. Good luck and keep up the good work! – JakeA Sep 30 at 16:02

killer Nibs · Answer 6 · 2012-10-01 03:44:04Z UTC

I think we may be at the same point.

im about 8-9% bf and can happily sit here forever it feels like. doing a leangains/ back-loading hybrid style. look up Nate Miyaki.

It seems to be the point where things work great (for young healthy males at least). and also the point where you have to take increasingly more controlled steps to take things lower.

personnally i cheat a bit. toast sometimes with my eggs at cafe, ice cream with the GF, cake when a housemate does some baking... pasta if someone has made some for me. i have no issues, so it is no big deal, but i know it is the first thing i need to tidy if i want to drop a % or too.

You can add in backloading. hold out on any carbs till the evening, and save up at least half your food for the day for a big evening meal. Cant say for sure if it will work for you, but the idea is to keep turning the screws. every little hack helps.

jjtitus · Answer 7 · 2012-10-01 17:22:51Z UTC

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I think genetics plays a significant part in how low you can reasonably get your body fat without extreme measures... maybe for your genetics, "really lean" is 7% without losing muscle mass?

The body builders that are shredded at less than 5% body fat are genetically gifted and most likely also taking supplements to facilitate lower body fat.

answered Oct 1 at 17:22

jjtitus
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	Genetics are powerful. I'm able to excel in endurance sports, and never get cramps on a 4hr ride at 100' outside. But I can deadlift and eat till the cows come home, and my strength hits a (low) plateau, because I simply don't gain an ounce of muscle no matter what I do. – animaleater Oct 2 at 5:50
	Sounds to me like your genetics are telling you to do endurance sports, haha... Since we last talked, I've also added Creatine HCL (CHCL) to my PWO stack (along with coconut water, protein, etc.). For some reason I just wasn't seeing results with CM, but the CHCL is working great and I put on another 5 lbs of muscle... You can check out the whole PWO stack on my blog post: spacecoastprimal.blogspot.com/2012/08/… – jjtitus Oct 2 at 11:32
	Ill try the C-HCL; thanks for the tip. Yeah, my genetics say endurance sports are my gig. I just returned from 5 day backpacking trip ascending 1-2000m a day, moving for 8hrs a day, fueling 1500cal above my WO day levels, and came back even leaner :) Also I've learned that with lifting, super heavy, high tension, low (3?) rep range, long rests, many sets makes me respond the best; no weight gain but noticeably harder and more vascular. Rock climbing is basically that.Training I've been doing ring dips and pullups with 25% added to bodyweight, the above method, and testosterone is way up. – animaleater Oct 17 at 6:05

Leangains vs Carb Backloading, to add carbs or not on rest days, and when?

7 Answers