Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

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Well I read the article below and for all this time I thought that maybe vlc had real merit, but now I'm starting to think that vlc is standing on hole cloth, much like vlf. According to one of these studies vlc and vlf both have similar results, both have very modest results and both results PALE in comparison to regular HIIT training (vlc and vlf both resulted in modest fat and muscle loss, while hiit resulted in fat loss and muscle mass gains ie. better body composition) Is it time we smash vlc from the paleo dogma? Is it time we embrace truly superior lifestyle choices like HIIT in its place? What do you think?

"Ready Set Go Fitness" is a great book by Phil Cambell that I read many years ago. It focuses on the "Sprint 8" protocol. This is where a person does a 30-second sprint (running, biking, elliptical, etc.) and then moves at a low-intensity pace for 90 seconds. This is one round, and the idea is to build up to 8 rounds, hence, Sprint 8.

A new study has been released testing the Sprint 8 protocol. The study has not been published yet, to my knowledge, but it can be found here. The study involved 11 middle-aged adults, so granted it is a small sample.

Overall, the results are just staggering. In only 8 weeks, subjects had amazing results across many indicators. Average weight "only" dropped by 9.6 pounds, but there was a massive shift between body fat and muscle. Based on the body fat measures, the average subject lost 23.8 pounds of fat. They also gained 14.2 pounds of muscle. If these results are replicated in future studies, this would represent one of the most effective diet/exercise interventions ever.

Compare this result to the recent two-year study that contrasted a low-fat diet to a low-carbohydrate diet. On average, participants from either group lost 9 pounds of fat but also 5 pounds of lean mass over this two-year period.

Of course, the Sprint 8 study was only 8 weeks, and not two years, but if you look at other studies you see that weight loss from exercise is often better maintained than weight loss from diet alone.

-http://www.mattmetzgar.com/2012/02/amazing-sprint-8-study.htmL

Edit:

And I must say, this is a paleo hacks site. It says in the FAQ that questions in regard to crossfit are fine. Vlc is often combined with paleo and people use it to lose weight. HIIT is an exercise technique that results in the only thing better than weight loss, body Recomposition (fat loss muscle gain). Because of the extent to which HIIT seems to surpass vlc in body composition improvements I consider HIIT to be a hack, a paleo hack. Maybe HIIT and vlc aren't necessarily mutually exclusive but because of how physically demanding HIIT is, it is VERY difficult to fully perform a protocol such as Sprint 8 while vlc'ing; so these two tend towards mutual exclusivity (hence me comparing them in my question). 4 out of the 5 people who have voted to close this question have done so on the grounds that this is "not a real question". However this IS a real question. I fully expect people who have knowledge in this area to answer my question and critique the studies I referenced, telling me that the results from that sprint 8 trial are an outlier or that the study on vlc was an outlier and then for them to provide other studies that back claims vlc (diet) is as efficient or better than (HIIT), or studies showing they actually can be performed together with similar results, or people saying yes that's right.

edited Feb 2 at 0:43

asked Jan 8 at 0:10

Stephen Ross
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This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered! For more Paleo Diet hacks: paleohacks.com/faq#ixzz2HLCxojNG Follow us: @PaleoHacks on Twitter | PaleoHacks on Facebook – CD Jan 8 at 0:56

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You've been a member for 6 months CD and with all due respect, only 5 of the 6 questions you've asked have a question mark after them. You've made it clear to me in previous threads that you disagree with HIIT, I can't help but think you are exemplifying your distaste for HIIT unfairly on this thread. – Stephen Ross Jan 8 at 1:06

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I genuinely feel like many people ask open ended questions on here, my hands down 1 and 2 were very similar to this where I provided studies and open ended discussion questions based on what I found. I find this a great median to share new information I find where there is a good sized population of relatively informed open minded individuals who wish to better themselves. I think this is a real question, many people here do vlc, and I'm asking of based on the research they might consider HIIT. Just because this is controversial doesn't make it a faux question IMO.. – Stephen Ross Jan 8 at 1:19

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Sorry, but this is definitely not a question. You should have your own blog where you can post these things. – PaleoDel Jan 8 at 1:45

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Stephen, your assumption that the vote to close is way off base. I am not VLC, I do not disdain HIIT. Your original post, "You're overweight, obese and doing vlc, do you realize how much your results could be multiplied by including HIIT?" that is offensive and it is not a real question. – CD Jan 8 at 14:39

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foreveryoung · Accepted Answer · 2013-01-08 02:08:09Z UTC

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Before it closes;

**rigorous exercise regime + balanced diet > VLC.

on counts of greater muscular development, improved hormonal status (HGH production during and after, and over time higher Test levels and lower estrogen levels due to improved body composition...in part because of the HGH response, in part because of the insulin sensitivity, and in part because the better T/E ratio which feeds on itself in a cylce of constantly getting better and better), improved endothelial function, feel-good endorphins, hormetic affects of exercise, character building process of challenging oneself through rigorous exercise tasks, etc, etc, yada yada.

...in my humble opinion.

edited Jan 8 at 2:08

answered Jan 8 at 2:02

foreveryoung
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that implies that VLC cannot be a balanced diet, which i'm not sure everyone here agrees with. – Mike T Jan 8 at 2:20

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and even if you assume it's true, the more logical comparison would be rigorous exercise regime + balanced diet compared to rigorous exercise regime + VLC. – Mike T Jan 8 at 2:28

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You can't maintain intensity on VLC because you burn out too quickly. Ask every Olympian or fitness model. – foreveryoung Jan 8 at 2:32

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That's because high intensity exercise is glycolytic. IT demands glucose. VLC diets are considerably lacking in that department. If it's not glycolytic it's not high intensity. People on VLC just can not push it to the intensity level they to in order to compete. Your body just won't let you go there as our gluconeogenesis pathways don't work fast enough. Additionally, most VLC diets severely limit protein, so even if you could do high intensity glyocolytic exercise, it wouldn't be repeated efforts because you would break down muscle over time and eventually be too weak for your competitors – foreveryoung Jan 8 at 2:40

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i don't have a strong enough opinion to really debate it, but i would imagine there are people here who are VLC and feel they do undergo rigorous exercise – Mike T Jan 8 at 2:41

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Mike T · Answer 2 · 2013-01-08 16:25:05Z UTC

Isn't comparing VLC to HIIT, comparing apples and oranges? One is a way of eating and one is a way of exercising. They aren't mutually exclusive.

UPDATE: Based on the discussions in this thread, I think what you are actually trying to prove is:

VLC makes it impossible to do HIIT properly
Eating some carbs and doing HIIT properly is more effective at burning fat/building muscle than (eating VLC and doing HIIT improperly or eating VLC and doing some other exercise)

I think it's a fair question to ask, but as far as I can tell, the research you linked above does not prove either of these points (even though I doubt anyone here is going to argue that HIIT isn't a good way to exercise).

Also, I think it's always important to keep in mind that different people have different starting points and different goals. It's possible that the best/easiest strategy to move from 40 to 30% body fat is different from the best/easiest strategy to move from 15 to 10% body fat.

FURTHERMORE: VLC has clearly worked for many people here in helping them to lose significant weight, improve body composition, feel better, etc. That could be because of the effect of carbs on insulin, or because of reduced food reward, or because of calorie reduction, or something else, but it doesn't matter. It's worked for them, and statements like "Is it time we smash vlc from the paleo dogma?" are probably not an effective way to bring those people into a constructive conversation whether or not there could have been an easier strategy for them to employ.

JayJay · Answer 3 · 2013-01-08 02:25:43Z UTC

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Dude, this may or may not be a question....but if it is a question its still nonsense. You can be VLC and do HIIT. You can eat high carb and do HIIT. You can do HIIT while eating SAD. You can do HIIT while living on jelly beans. You can do the cabbage diet and HIIT.

Or you can skip HIIT completely and only do HIT resistance with all the above said choices. And on and on....

Get it?

answered Jan 8 at 2:25

JayJay
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I see where you're coming from but I do disagree that doing HIIT long term on a low carb diet is realistic. I don't have any studies showing its impossible just n=1 kinda stuff. Mat Lalonde talks about this in one of his podcasts. How he burned out doing low carb with high intensity/resistance training. Personally, I've done vlc and could not perform HIIT without getting extremely torn down. Carbs are not a necessary macronutrient but glycogenesis seems to be inadequate in at least some people for restoring glucose stores while performing HIIT. – Stephen Ross Jan 8 at 2:36

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I don't know what you or Lalonde does. But, HIT (resistance) done correctly will not take more than 15 minutes of work. Your not likely to burn more than 30g of carbs in that very short time of work. You can get that with the addition of one small potato. Now if you wanna do that intense work everyday or multiple times a day you may need to get some glucose in you, but if your like me and your only doing it 2-3x/week then you have plenty of time to let your glycogen stores refill with just about any eating program you like. – JayJay Jan 8 at 2:54

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In addition You could very easily adapt VLC to HIIT with superstarch or other such items. Nobody says you cant manipulate your energy sources particularly around your exercise time. I'm still just saying neither is mutually exclusive. And beyond that each is only a piece of the lifestyle puzzle. There is no ONE SPECIAL THING that will be your silver bullet. There are only various tools and how you use them. – JayJay Jan 8 at 2:59

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I think I agree with JayJay. If you give sufficient time for your body to create its own glucose between exercise, then you're probably fine. You run into problems when you 1) love to exercise 2) are a competitive athelete and/or 3) don't know when the saber tooth tiger is going to come after you. – foreveryoung Jan 8 at 2:59

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If you are getting chased by a saber tooth tiger enough that you cannot replenish your glycogen stores, you need to rethink your life's choices... – CD Jan 8 at 3:04

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CD · Answer 4 · 2013-01-08 02:40:46Z UTC

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Is it time we smash vlc from the paleo dogma?

No, VLC is not dogma, it is a dietary choice. Some people do better on VLC, some on higher carb -- Why be prescriptive? Let people decide what works best for them.

Is it time we embrace truly superior lifestyle choices like HIIT in its place?

Not sure I agree that people have not "embraced" HIIT. Pretty much every post I read about exercise suggests some time of HIIT as a supplement to resistance training.

answered Jan 8 at 2:40

CD
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Isn't resistance training basically HIIT? It uses the kreps cycle to generate ATP from creatine phosphate (and then glucose, once creatine stores are depleted) in the same manner that HIIT does. I don't understand. Isn't resistance training just another form of HIIT? – foreveryoung Jan 8 at 2:43

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I agree that they have similar effect on the body. I think the difference is that HIIT is typically defined as intense followed by active recovery (like biking slowly, jogging, walking, etc). Resistance training is typically followed by passive rest (i.e. laying on the bench/ flexing in the mirror). For me personally, I think of HIIT as either Tabatas on the bike, or sprints on the track, obviously you could implement a resistance workout in the form of HIIT, but that is how I differentiate in my mind. – CD Jan 8 at 2:58

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Gotcha. Nice explanation. – foreveryoung Jan 8 at 3:03

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Depends on what sort of resistance training you are doing. HIIT is a 100% effort essentially "to failure". Some people perform HIT(resistance)...I do...where you go till failure. If your not going to failure you are likely using a volume approach and I'm not so sure they would be as comparable in that case. – JayJay Jan 8 at 3:05

David Moss · Answer 5 · 2013-01-12 11:36:39Z UTC

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This is a completely invalid question: you can't compare a diet choice to an exercise choice. Also, I don't think it's true that VLC is (somewhat) at odds with HIIT. I've done HIIT for years, while being VLC.

answered Jan 12 at 11:36

David Moss
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Regardless of the mutual exclusivity, the studies posted found that a vlc resulted in significant amounts of muscle and fat loss, while HIIT showed more than double the fat loss along with significant muscle mass gains. Since these are two approaches used by the paleo community for weight loss don't you think it's valid to compare them? – Stephen Ross Jan 12 at 12:59

1) Because they're not antagonistic (let alone mutually exclusive), it's invalid to reason from "[Beneficial exercise] had more effect than [beneficial diet], so we should "smash [beneficial diet] from paleo." 2) It's misleading to conflate the above reasoning with simply comparing two non-competing things. 3) You can compare almost anything you like, the question is whether it's useful. If you posted "Is eating steak more beneficial than not eating dairy?" you'd rightly be met with bewilderment. – David Moss Jan 12 at 14:48

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colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/TIPS/… HIIT for ~20 weeks leads to 0.1kg weight loss. I'll grant that I can't find a failed long term HIIT study, because there aren't any long term HIIT studies. ;) – David Moss Jan 12 at 17:39

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BTW stephen I in part pointed this out in comments under my answer, but your HIIT protocol really is absolutely PERFECT for pairing with low carb or VLC eating. How much glycogen to you suppose you go through doing HIIT for 4 minutes (tabata)...or even your 20 minute version? Seriously if you look into HIT resistance protocols like Body by Science (Doug McGuff) or Drew Bayes or Fred Hann many of them are also low carb proponents because the briefness of the protocol...although glycolytic....lends itself well to VLC/LC due to the short time frame leading to very little overall glycogen need. – JayJay Jan 13 at 0:44

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I'd speculate 10-30g max for your 20 minutes of HIIT. As long as your only doing this 3x/week there is more than enough time to replenish glycogen stores. Even though VLC'er have less muscle glycogen on average than normal or high carb dieters they still carry a couple to a few hundred grams of glycogen and have shifted their energy usage systems to conserve this glycogen in times its not needed, making it available for that sprint. – JayJay Jan 13 at 0:48

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Hepoberman · Answer 6 · 2013-01-12 09:55:14Z UTC

How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance

Dr. Attia: "So how did my performance change over the final 12 weeks of my nutritional experiment, when I was in a state of ketosis? The table below summarizes my findings, but let me add a bit of commentary."

Pre and post VLC alt text n=1 but we're all designed to burn fat.

AlohaSpeck · Answer 7 · 2013-01-12 16:43:07Z UTC

Maybe you should have rephrased your question...

Is HIIT better than a VLC diet for body recomposition, could HIIT be maintained on VLC diet?

Though I must admit even just trying to combine these two things into an actual question is difficult. Maybe it would have been better to start with the options of what is best for body recomposition:

A: HIIT alone
B: HIIT + General Paleo
C: HIIT + VLC Paleo
D: VLC Paleo alone
E: General Paleo alone

But again are we talking about just losing bodyfat or body-recomposition (gaining muscle mass)?

Because you can lose bodyfat via dietary intervention without any more exercise then everyday functioning, VLC Paleo for many does exactly that. If you want to gain muscle mass (at a perceivable rate) you have to do more than everyday functioning exercise. If you choose to utilise HIIT, then the question becomes what diet is best for HIIT, and your question becomes is VLC Paleo best for HIIT longterm? It appears that if you are beginning to move away from mere body-recomposition and towards performance goals, VLC Paleo may not be the best thing, especially if you need explosive bursts of performance which is typical of HIIT.

If you are interested, I personally do VLC Paleo on rest/complementary days, and General Paleo on my HIIT days. At my current performance level eating some starch two to three times a week post-workout provides me enough fire to keep my intensity high, the general health benefits, and VLC Paleo the rest of time keeps me feeling good and feeling like I am doing well with recomposition. Personally I see little longterm benefit in just eating VLC Paleo over utilising starches specifically; especially if you want to pack on muscle.

hackadoodle82 · Answer 8 · 2013-01-12 17:42:43Z UTC

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the statistic or clinical significance of a study on 11 overweight people who had an exercise program introduced who were otherwise sedentary with crap cholesterol and high bf percentages. After reading the study carefully their results were what I would expect from any person beginning an exercise program who has otherwise been sedentary. A study of such a small sample is anecdotal at best and while I admire the researchers for their attention to detail with regard to standards of measurement (cholesterol, demographics, body fat percentage, BMI, etc.), I'm sure they know that all their study "suggests" is that more research is needed.

Also, I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. As someone else suggested, the two are not mutually exclusive, but perhaps synergistic. It's diet AND exercise, not one better than the other. yes we know HIIT is great for people with limited time and for fat loss AND low carb has benefits as well. Why exclude one from the other or try to suggest one is somehow better?

there is a lot of research being done right now, so I think we need to keep an open mind on the subject. research goes back and forth all the time! here's one example that includes both (yes the sample is again small, but obviously research is ongoing) http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00421-010-1571-y

Stephen Ross · Answer 9 · 2013-02-02 00:46:59Z UTC

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This is a load of BS. VLC diets work perfect for HIIT training. Please show some real research because n=1 experiments do not mean anything..?

In this study 8 elite gymnasts are performing perfectly on a ketogenic diet. If you know the sport, you will know that it is HIIT a like. These athletes perform in short super intesive intervals of exercise and heavy work, just like when you do HIIT. The study concludes that the Ketogenic diet works as good as another.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211

edited Feb 2 at 0:46

Stephen Ross

answered Jan 18 at 13:59

Leo
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	Even if vlc works perfect with HIIT, when comparing them in isolation I show that HIIT works better than vlc for fat loss and muscle gains by a significant margin. There are two clinical studies in my question so this clearly isn't n=1, do you know what n=1 means? I don't know what training for elite gymnasts is like and since they don't me ton the intensity of these athlete's training in the study you referenced you also cannot say with accuracy what these athlete's training was like, much less assert they were HIIT training. – Stephen Ross Jan 18 at 15:14
	Don't mention the intensity* – Stephen Ross Jan 18 at 15:15

Does this article and do these studies show that vlc (diet in general) is inferior to HIIT (for body Recomposition)?

9 Answers