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We've had several female-specific questions on PaleoHacks, but this one's for the guys--if you dare. Ladies are welcome to comment also. First of all, I'm not talking about the clinical gynecomastia (breast development) that shows up in adolescents or young men. I'm talking about a more middle-age condition. For the past several years, I've had a vexing problem--a slightly disproportionate fat accumulation in the chest area, commonly known as man-boobs, or "moobs". Since I've changed to a lower carb, more paleo diet, it's getting less pronounced. Have PaleoHacks users had experiences with this problem, or perhaps you "know someone" with moobs? What causes man-boobs, and how do you get rid of them?

Edit/Addendum: NickW raised the point about environmental estrogens. Are there other potential sources besides casked liquor? Should I worry about estrogens in the food chain?

Edit, 4/25/2010--re-titled; I'm including the original title here to provide context to the comments below: "Show us your "moobs"?"

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Can't get rid of it. Only option is a male bra, known as a "Bro" (or "Manssiere"--depending on whom you ask). ;) – Glenn Mar 10 2010 at 18:32
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Thanks Glenn! I sometimes confuse the terms "brassiere" and "brasserie". I guess an infant can dine at either locale. – Ed Mar 11 2010 at 0:31
When I first saw this question, I was ready to start invoking some of my admin privileges and start deleting away -- but apparently this is a serious discussion. – Patrik Mar 11 2010 at 0:59
@Patrik: seems like the title of the question could be better. I would fix it myself, but don't have enough points quite yet... – Rick Kiessig Mar 11 2010 at 1:15
@Rick, it's a substantive topic, but the title is intended to lighten up the discussion a bit. Glenn and NickW certainly "got it", and I appreciate your answer as well. If there's enough offense taken at the title, I'll replace it. If the questiion gets to -3 votes, I'll take the whole question down. – Ed Mar 11 2010 at 1:33
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16 Answers

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I don't know a whole lot about this, so hopefully someone better informed will chime in. But from what I know about fat storage in human males and females, I would be surprised if the answer didn't have something to do with insulin, testosterone, and estrogen.

If you:

  • eat grain-free, gluten-free, lowish-carb Paleo (<30-50g carbs from non-starchy vegetables)*
  • eat adequate protein from meat and fish
  • exercise short (5-15 minutes max) high-intensity 1-3x per week (HIIT, CrossFit, sprint intervals, Tabatas, etc.)
  • lift weights (powerlifts or Olympic lifts) 2-3x per week (HEAVY, in the 2-5 rep range for powerlifts and 1-3 rep range for Oly lifts)
  • sleep adequately (probably 8-9+ hours daily in a dark room)
  • get adequate vitamin D from sunlight, sunlamps, or pills (enough to maintain 50-70 ng/mL)

This will help normalize insulin, which will in turn reduce overall body fat. If you are at 8-10% it is hard for me to see how you will maintain moobs. [EDIT: Actually, due to the role that sex hormones play in determining the location of fat deposits, I suppose it would be possible to maintain some moobs, but they would likely get smaller as you approach 8-10% BF.]

I would also think that these steps will help increase testosterone and decrease excess estrogen. In theory this will help decrease the size of your moobs, as decreased estrogen --> loss of fat in chest region.

To give you better advice, it would be helpful if you give us an indication of

  • what your current diet is like (what foods you eat/avoid, rough idea of macronutrient ratios -- does not have to be super precise)
  • how long you've been on your current diet
  • what your current body fat % is (approximately)
  • your age
  • your level of physical activity (do you exercise? play sports? lift weights? how often and how hard?)
  • how much you sleep on average

*The carb intake recommendation is just a place to start that seems to work for a lot of people. Your individual carb intake may vary depending on your level and type of activity, your age, your body composition, your health/athletic goals, your body's individual tolerance for carbs, other health issues, and other factors.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of this is info you already know, but maybe I hit something you hadn't thought of.

Edit: Dr. Davis just posted his thoughts as well on his blog.

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Thanks Jae, great answer. Additional info.: mostly lacto-paleo diet for about 1 year, about 100gm carbs/day, about 100gm protein/day (wt. 160lb.), age 52, body fat 16% by on-line calculator, resistance training 20min. 2X per week, sprint intervals 1X/week, mountain or road cycling 1-2 hours/week, sleep 7-8hr./nite – Ed Mar 11 2010 at 0:15
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Ed, Keep plugging away! Sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. I don't know much about testosterone/estrogen but my hunch is that anything that increases T and reduces E in older males would help you out. I am sure there is a lot of conventional wisdom out there about diet/exercise/sex hormones that is wrong... but lifting heavy probably doesn't hurt. You'll probably have to tinker with your diet/exercise/rest and see what works for you. Cut out dairy? Reduce/increase carb intake? Supplements? Lift/sprint/sleep more? Best of luck! – JJ Mar 11 2010 at 2:17
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There are different types of fat tissues in the body, and hormones will control which tissue types the fat is deposited in. The hips and chest are the female locations of fat, the gut for males. The hormones estrogen and testosterone will control whether fat goes into a female or a male location.

Aside from avoiding excess phytoestrogens in your food (soy), there are chemical sources of extrogen mimicking sources, called xenoestrogens.

The most common xenoestrogen is bisphenol A (BPA), found in many plastics. While the amount of xenoestrogens that leaches from a plastic water bottle into the water is very low (in the parts per billion), the normal levels of estrogen in the blood stream in a male is even lower (in the parts per trillion). BPA leeches not only from water bottles, but it's also found in the linings of tin cans, and many other food products that are shipped in plastic. BPA is also used in many thermal imaging papers, in particular cash register reciepts. You typically won't expose such paper to foods, but the BPA on those papers is not bound into polymers, but is floating free, so it's possible significant amounts could be absorbed through skin or inadvertently transfered onto foods.

Sunscreens and skin-care products can also contain high-levels of hormone distrupting products, so it's worthwhile sourcing a non-toxic sunscreen.

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@Kevin, great answer, especially the phyto vs. xeno thing. I wonder if cheap bicycle water bottles, which I re-use many times, contain significant BPA? – Ed Mar 11 2010 at 3:05
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Most likely. Plastic with recycling number 2, 4 or 5 are BPA free (although they can contain other things which leech). Leeching in plastic is a function of time and the amount of degradation of the plastic. Any plastic that is exposed to heat will cause it to leech significantly more, this is a permanent degradation. Conversely, if it's a new plastic, and the liquid has been left to sit overnight, it's going to have a much smaller amount of BPA. All of the major water bottle accessory manufacturers started offering BPA free plastics in the last year or two as well. – Kevin Teague Mar 12 2010 at 4:22
I use a bottle from "onegreenbottle"... not sure if they deliver to the U.S (I'm from the UK) but I love my bottle now lol... I'm sure there are similar stainless steel or BPA free plastic bottles around for you :) – Paleo_BLaZeDRas Jul 3 2011 at 21:27
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One big source of dietary estrogens is soy, in all of its forms. If you cut a lot of soy out of your diet when switching to Paleo, that might explain part of your improvements.

Breast tissue (which is present in all men to some degree) is largely fat. Eating more saturated fats helps encourage the body to produce proper levels of a bunch of hormones, including testosterone, which in turn helps produce muscles instead of fat. Lowering insulin levels--one of the primary goals of Paleo--should also help, since it reduces overall fat storage.

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Agreed. My personal mantra is "Soy is Satanic". But that is just me.... :) – Patrik Mar 11 2010 at 1:00
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Yes, besides the diet which is now very low in Omega 6's and estrogen laced grains and soy products (including grain fed neat, etc), a succesful stregth training program using kettlebells, re-shaped my old fat body. I can take my shirt off in public for the first time in my life.

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@pjnoir, congratulations on your success, and thank you for your comment. – Ed Mar 28 2010 at 1:33
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Another thing I don't seem mentioned is an enzymatic function of the body called aromatase. In men, aromatase activity refers to the conversion of testosterone into either DHT or estrogen. Fat cells are unfortunately very good at aromatizing your natural testosterone, changing it into estrogen, which is why most truly obese men end up with development of gynecomastia (or manbreasts, or moobs!). If you keep getting leaner, your fat levels will go down, and your aromatizing activity should go down, leaving you with higher testosterone to estrogen ratios in your blood - a good thing!

By the way, there are some over the counter anti-aromatizing compounds (e.g. chrysin, sold at many vitamin shops), but don't bother - its been proven ineffective in the body (though it does work in a test tube), and it can damage your thyroid. There are prescriptions that can help (e.g. arimidex), but start with just getting leaner.

Another thing is to eat more cruciferous vegies - like broccoli - they can scavenge excess estrogen from your body.

Good luck!

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My father had some serious Moobs before going paleo and a year later they are nearly gone.

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Very inspirational--thanks, Melissa! – Ed Mar 11 2010 at 3:26
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If you're a casked-liquor drinker, may want to switch to something non-wooded (eg. move from scotch to vodka). Estrogen from the wood has been known to cause the whiskey-tits problem.

I am not insinuating you're a heavy drinker, and giving up scotch is close to sacrilege :P.

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Interesting point Nick, but I don't drink scotch. I do indulge in an occasional beer or mojito. Thanks, – Ed Mar 11 2010 at 0:32
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I ran across this posting on the HeartScanBlog. Read the post...but especially read Dr. BG's comment regarding Prolactin and Moobs.

http://bit.ly/ccvdwa

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Thanks, Dexter. For those who use the link, scroll about 2/3 down the page after clicking. – Ed Apr 7 2010 at 1:18
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Logically, since a paleo diet reduces your overall fat, you would assume that the moob problem would diminish as your total body fat goes down. Good luck.

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Oops! I hope that doesn't work for me! – henny Mar 11 2010 at 4:04
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work on improving your insulin sensitivity - intermittent fasting and cold showers for example.

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I guess this is what real MOOBS are!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7NVdwRV2lkA/S8IoOvv9ZrI/AAAAAAAAAF8/Cn1RA2FqJfs/s1600/GeordieFan.bmp

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That's seriously SAD. – henny Apr 12 2010 at 4:18
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Had them since puberty except when I got down to my ideal weight in the mid-20s. And I wasn't even paleo at the time--lost weight back then by limiting calories only. As soon as I put fat back on, back came the boobs. So I would say you need to lose more fat.

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Dr. Davis at Heart Scan is on this one. Check out the latest blog called "Bosom Buddies". http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/

This is one of his pet peeves. You can do this. Remember Woody Allen's words in Bananas..."you must suck out the poison..."

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Thanks for the link! – Ed Oct 9 2010 at 15:12
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I agree with all the hormonal points above, but would like to emphasize that nothing encourages the body to 'take back' the odd spare flesh caused by years of SAD living like Intermittent Fasting.

What I take away from Nonlinear stimulation and hormesis in human aging: practical examples and action mechanisms. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20662589 is that chronic (repeated) IF accelerates the remodelling and possible removal of damaged or redundant cells.

Just my opinion, backed by some facts. Other facts and opinions are welcome!

I'll admit, I esp. love this line from the abstract:* Such techniques include dietary restriction and calorie restriction mimetics, intermittent fasting, environmental enrichment, cognitive and sense stimulation, sexuality-enhancing strategies, exposure to low or to high temperatures, and other physicochemical challenges!*

So yes, vary how you live your life, and you'll have more of it! Or less of it, in the case of Moobs.

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Interesting! I hadn't thought of IF as an hormetic technique. – Ed Oct 12 2010 at 22:45
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just about lost mine after 20+ months of Paleo. Reduce omega 6s and it can be done. Not overnight. I am very comfortable for the first time in my life to be outside without a shirt.

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My Dh has been diagnosed with hyperaldosteronism, and has to take Spirinolactone to control the consequent high blood pressure. He was complaining about his newly pubescent breasts, and the discomfort from the tenderness. The nephrologist was duly concerned about this complaint about breast pain, until I interrupted the male angst fest about breast discomfort, by saying sarcastically....

Breast tenderness and pain? You guys tell me about it, right?

They got the point.

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