Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

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I have been on an all-meat diet for over a year, and I'm very happy with it. I saw drastic health improvements even over a very low carb diet. My doctor is mostly happy with it, but he often urges me to eat some non-starchy green vegetables, as he has the idea that that would be optimal. I always say "maybe one day".

Well, I've been at this long enough that I'm ready to try some experiments about what my body will tolerate, just to see what happens. I've thought about adding some so-called "safe starches", but I think what I'd like to try first is a green vegetable, partly out of respect for my doctor, whom I really like working with.

So what is the least likely to hurt me? Ideally it should be low in common problem compounds like oxalates, salicylates, lectins, whatever it is in brassicas that is a problem for thyroid, etc, but I'm not sure what that leaves or what other compounds to avoid. Any ideas or resources appreciated!

ETA: And what about seaweeds? Any toxin issues with those?

edited Jan 7 2011 at 18:04

asked Jan 7 2011 at 17:59

Ambimorph
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The problem with brassicas is that they're goitrogenic. They're also called cruciferous vegetables and are highly represented by spinach, kale, chard, cabbage, broccoli, and cauliflower. There are a lot of others, but the goitrogens partially break down in cooking. The longer cooked, the fewer goitrogens (also the less tasty IMO). In small amounts it shouldn't be an issue though, especially if you currently have a healthy thyroid. You can search for "is * goitrogenic?" or print out a list of cruciferous vegetables to take with you shopping if you want to avoid them. – WordVixen Jan 7 2011 at 20:40

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Hi, Steve. I originally decided to try it for 3 weeks because I thought it might help weight loss which was not going very well at the time. It did help with that. Within 3 weeks I felt better than I had in years. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 4:49

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As an aside, apropos of Stephen's recent meta question, this question has gotten 2 downvotes so far. I can only assume that those people are 'against' an all-meat diet, and therefore will simply downvote my question on how to improve it. How very useful. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 4:55

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Upvoted because your question IS a good and valid one and there's no legit reason for anyone to downvote. :) – Kaz Jan 8 2011 at 5:39

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Thanks, Kaz, and others. I didn't mean to fish for upvotes, but the downs were a prime example of what we talking about, IMO. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 15:03

show 5 more comments

David Leitner · Answer 1 · 2011-01-07 19:37:30Z UTC

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Biochemist Mat Lalonde makes the argument that pretty much every vegetable contains some kind of toxin as a protective mechanism (since plants cannot defend themselves by running away or fighting). He recommends rotating a wide variety of veggies so as to not overwhelm any detox pathway in the digestive system.

answered Jan 7 2011 at 19:37

David Leitner
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That's a good point. I tend to agree that vegetables all seem to have some problem or other. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 4:13

:( But ... I like eating plants ... – Allie Mar 21 2011 at 1:17

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dose makes the poison. – Stephen-Aegis Mar 21 2011 at 2:06

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came here to say that, so I won't clutter the thread with another answer but count this as another thumbs up from me. – miked Jun 15 2011 at 22:05

Corinne · Answer 2 · 2011-01-08 13:58:51Z UTC

I don't think you need to eat vegetables to enjoy fantastic health. I, too, have been eating an all-meat diet and feel amazing. I tried adding in a few veggies about six months ago and it threw me off balance. My insatiable hunger popped back up and it took six weeks to get back on track with "zero" carb. Seriously. All I added were lettuce (iceberg) and cucumbers. That was enough to toss me to the wolves, and I ended up eating all kinds of things - all "paleo" mind you - that gave me unstable blood sugars etc. What a learning experience it was!

I think that some people do their absolute best on an all-meat diet, and I don't believe that there is anything wrong with that at all. Fatty meat contains all of the nutrients we need.

PaleoGran · Answer 3 · 2012-02-13 18:36:41Z UTC

In case this is of use:

The Failsafe Diet, which is used by allergists at the Royal Prince Alfred hospital in Australia, is designed to help one discover what it is in foods that one is most sensitive to. It is an elimination diet.

One might be sensitive to salicylates, another to goitrogens, another to oxalates, another to two or three of those, etc.

Here is a link to an excellent blog about the Failsafe Diet.

http://failsafediet.wordpress.com/

Also, Dr. Blake Donaldson, who helped thousands of patients who had allergies, states in his book, Strong Medicine, that many people have allergic reactions to green vegetables and that yellow vegetables are the safest if one tends to have allergic reactions in general. There is no online version of his book, that I know of, and it is very much worth reading. I do not know of those who may have carried on this line of work after he died. Perhaps someone else knows.

ETA: Dr. Donaldson's book is now online and can be read here:

http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015003228171

For anecdotal report: I do well with the following yellow vegetables: celery, turnips, and an occasional parsnip, but that does not mean they are the best vegetables for everyone. (I am not overly fond of carrots, but have not noticed any problematic reactions.)

I have read both pro and con regarding seaweeds. I still eat them, albeit in very small amounts.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help at this point. The subject of phytotoxins is rather large.

Rock_Paper_Shirley · Answer 4 · 2011-06-15 16:20:58Z UTC

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Just because some vegetables contain goiterogenic compounds doesn't necessarily mean they are actively goiterogenic to the body. Cruciforms and other veggies have enough nutrients and fiber to make them far more beneficial for most people and I think outweighs the potential problems.

As for toxins to deter predators - which predators? For example, just because something is toxic to a dog (like onions or grapes) doesn't mean it's toxic to humans. most of the 'toxins' in plants are meant to deter insects, and probably are harmless to humans, or in such low amounts they're negligible.

From what I've read about oxalates, unless as one person mentioned, you are prone to kidney stones, they probably have little or no effect on body function.

Pesticide residue is probably another story.

answered Jun 15 2011 at 16:20

Rock_Paper_Shirley
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I am prone to kidney stones, and I get plenty of nutrients from meat. Whatever it was that made the drastic positive difference in my health when going from VLC to ZC, was almost certainly due to something in vegetables, so I am quite right to be cautious. Different people are more and less sensitive to compounds in plants that may or may not be considered "toxic" to the species as a whole, in the sense of causing acute, immediate illness or death. – Ambimorph Jun 15 2011 at 17:39

I'm amazed, Ambimorph, I'm VLC right now but lately I've been attracted to ZC for some reason. I'm just afraid that, if I go ZC, I'll have to do it my entire life. I want to be able to eat some fruit or at least some vegetables one day... I seem to be able to tolerate vegetables quite well right now though. – Korion Sep 2 2011 at 13:39

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Actually, many other people suffer from oxalate-related symptoms and problems who have never had a kidney stone. I have severe oxalate issues but I've never had kidney stones. Yes, it's a low percentage of the population who have trouble but it's not just kidney disease sufferers. Also burning mouth syndrome, autism, fibromyalgia, IBS, bladder pain, genital pain and/or burning, arthritis, and the list goes on. – Heidi Jan 3 2012 at 21:58

Note: it would be highly improbably that oxalates could "cause" autism- autism is a spectrum condition that is an integral part of who a person is, not a symptom. Autistic children do exhibit higher levels of oxalates in their urine, which suggest greater accumulation, so possible benefits from a low oxalate diet could manage clinical features of autism. Important distinction! – JeJ Feb 13 2012 at 19:59

wjones3044 · Answer 5 · 2011-01-07 18:20:00Z UTC

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Lettuce. Use it to wrap up beef liver pate.

answered Jan 7 2011 at 18:20

wjones3044
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	Lettuce does seem to be looking pretty neutral. It's low in all the things I mentioned, afaict. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 5:44
	iceberg is like water in between membranes, probably the least irritating thing of all time. – JeJ Feb 13 2012 at 20:02

oak0y · Answer 6 · 2011-03-21 01:09:03Z UTC

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I suggest.. go for wild herbs and greens. Nettles chickweed,... leafs flowers....get a good foraging book on wild edibles. there are good experts out there

answered Mar 21 2011 at 1:09

oak0y

	Concur on nettles - I once, with friends, collected a couple shopping bags full (we wore heavy gloves) and steamed them up with a little butter. They were really good! I don't know about toxins, but perhaps they contain less, having an alternate method of defense. The 'needles' disappear the instant the steam hits them. – CaveRat Jun 16 2011 at 3:22
	Btw foraging also respects the seasonal nature of different species, and increases the likely variety as well which helps with any risk of overdose. – CaveRat Jun 16 2011 at 3:24
	Just watch out for the carrotty-looking plants with the purple spots growing by the creekside. – Rose Aug 3 2011 at 20:16
	Yeah don't mess around with anything that looks like a carrot in the wild unless you really know what you are doing, I don't want anyone here to pull an accidental Socrates. – Happy Now Aug 3 2011 at 22:45
	I don't know, if you haven't eaten greens in a long time, I have a hard time eating too many nettles and I eat loads of greens already (kale everyday, totally addicted). I used to prepare them all the time at work for meals, and if I ate too much nettle soup I would get a rash on my chest. They are pretty potent for a vegetable-cherry-popping so to speak. – JeJ Feb 13 2012 at 20:01

CaveRat · Answer 7 · 2011-06-16 17:33:32Z UTC

I have a couple suggestions:

1) Do an experiment by introducing related groups of veggies one at a time, then either eliminate or refine as needed. For example, start with the Brassicas and eat Cabbage, Brocolli, Brussels Sprouts as a group. If you have a strong reaction you might assume that it's all of them that cause problems and eliminate the entire class. If a minor reaction (and you care) refine to one species at a time. After you've determined the impact of a group then move to another Group (say, Allium - Garlic, Onion etc) and test that.

Doing this in groups of similar veggies reduces the total number of tests you'd have to do, and get you to your answers faster.

I definitely think the algae and seaweed would be good to try too.

Since it doesn't sound like you're in a hurry you can spend a bit of time on this :-)

2) Foraging. oak0y mentioned this earlier, and I think it's a good idea with multiple benefits: it's seasonal, which means you're not eating just one species for more than a few months max at a time, there is a huge variety which minimizes the impact of any one species. Plus - you're already doing the 'Hunting' piece - foraging lets you do the 'Gathering' part AND you spend more time in nature; what could be more "Paleo" than that?

Travis Culp · Answer 8 · 2011-01-07 18:37:45Z UTC

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Isn't the percentage of the population that is sensitive to those compounds pretty small? I hope so, because I eat 2 cups of spinach and 1 of broccoli and blueberries a day. The nutrient density is just far too great for me to discontinue this practice.

answered Jan 7 2011 at 18:37

Travis Culp♦
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Probably. I am susceptible to kidney stones, and spinach and blueberries are very high in oxalates. I get plenty of nutrients from meat, so I take the opposite position. :-) – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 5:07

If they ever get an oxalobacter probiotic supplement on the market, you might be a candidate for trying it Ambimorph. From what I've found the only way to reintroduce it into your system currently is fecal transplant. – Happy Now Aug 3 2011 at 23:23

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Blueberries are NOT high in oxalate. In fact, they are quite low in oxalate. I've been on a low oxalate diet for almost 20 years. i remember when blueberries were retested about 6 years ago with the new more accurate testing methods. I rejoiced! Broccoli is lower medium oxalate and can be eaten by people on a low oxalate diet. Don't give up blueberries or broccoli! Now spinach is another story! The Trying Low Oxalates yahoo.group has the most up-to-date and accurate oxalate list. – Heidi Jan 3 2012 at 21:54

Steve · Answer 9 · 2011-01-07 18:38:08Z UTC

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I know Furhman is a quack, but I really like his ANDI metric for comparing carbs (ANDI = Aggregate Nutrient Density Index). link text

He ranks Kale and Collards as highest (both 1000), followed by Bok Chjoy (824) and Spinach (739).

- - N O T E : The ANDI metric makes no sense what so ever for ranking protien and fats, so ignore them completely!!

answered Jan 7 2011 at 18:38

Steve
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Hey, that's pretty interesting. I had no idea that bok choy was that nutritious. I usually only put it in soup, but I may have to add it to my daily steaming. Are kale and collards bitter if you steam them? – Travis Culp♦ Jan 7 2011 at 18:45

Why bother steaming kale when you can saute it in bacon grease? But no, I've steamed it and then sauteed it (in bacon grease, of course) and it came out wonderful. – Casey Jan 7 2011 at 19:13

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That's interesting, thank you. Too bad it doesn't use toxins in the rankings, though. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 4:58

Paleo Seb · Answer 10 · 2011-01-08 03:19:21Z UTC

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Swiss chard, spinach and kale are probably to worst offenders in terms of toxins.

I've found that the vegetables with the least toxins are also often those with the least nutrition (lettuce, cucumbers, zucchinis, ...)

answered Jan 8 2011 at 3:19

Paleo Seb
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Someone else mentioned cukes to me, saying that since they are actually the fruit, they have less of the toxins. I guess the same would apply to zucchini. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 5:09

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I don't mind if they have little nutrition. I suspect I get everything I need already. I just don't want to worsen my diet by adding a toxic vegetable. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 5:12

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if youre getting everything you need... why change it? – Stephen-Aegis Mar 21 2011 at 2:04

Yes, good point, Stephen. And I haven't after all. :-) – Ambimorph May 26 2011 at 12:51

mari · Answer 11 · 2011-01-08 14:16:20Z UTC

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Mushrooms seem relatively benign, but I'm sure they have some toxin I'm not aware of. I think that as long as you mix up your veggies you should be fine.

Fruits would presumably have less toxins as well. Don't know what your opinion is on these.

answered Jan 8 2011 at 14:16

mari
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Even the most benign grocery store mushrooms contain small amounts of toxins like gyromitrin. It is completely nullified by cooking. I see them called for raw in recipes all the time, but my mycology professor said to never eat them raw. – Happy Now Aug 3 2011 at 23:03

Yeah, my plant biology prof always gleefully told us about toxins associated with even the most benign raw mushroom- I think the whole class started cooking mushrooms after those lectures... – JeJ Feb 13 2012 at 20:04

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Mushrooms are not vegetables. Fungus is more closely related to animals than to plants. In fact, fungi and animalia were combined into a super-kingdom by biologists. – Qommon Feb 14 2012 at 3:45

Kikilula · Answer 12 · 2011-01-07 18:27:14Z UTC

Green asparagus, pointed cabbage and lamb's lettuce are the most tolerable for me. On white cabbage I react in contrast to pointed cabbage with abdominal pain. Brussels sprouts and zucchini are also good digestible, just like other lettuces.

This book was helpful for me: "Gut leben trotz Nahrungsmittel-Allergie" by Claudia Thiel (Autor) sorry - just this german book...

Rogue Nutritionist · Answer 13 · 2011-05-26 04:55:52Z UTC

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Sea vegetables might be right for you...yummy and chock full of minerals, and are a wild food!

answered May 26 2011 at 4:55

Rogue Nutritionist
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	Yes, I was wondering about those. They're algae, strictly speaking. – Ambimorph May 26 2011 at 12:54
	Presuming we came from the sea, so long ago, seaweed and some other algaes ought to be quite accepted, and a fine source of iodine! – Adam Crafter Jul 26 2011 at 15:53

Marina · Answer 14 · 2011-08-03 20:02:25Z UTC

What about dill weed? I know most people just use it as a garnish but I have some growing in the garden and nothing compares to the delicate taste of fresh dill. Can't get enough of it. I don't think it has any toxins... anyway, it's not like you're safe from toxins if you stick to just meat, since fat is a great storage site for any sorts of junk that the poor animals pick up in the environment. Even in the most seemingly pristine of places - I'm sure grass-fed and wild-caught helps, but still, we do live in the modern, inconvenient truth world.

Kathleen · Answer 15 · 2012-02-14 03:17:32Z UTC

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Why not try something lacto-fermented? Sauerkraut, sour pickles, carrots and ginger... Or simply starting out with a few fresh herbs?

answered Feb 14 2012 at 3:17

Kathleen
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Lurene Grenier · Answer 16 · 2011-01-07 18:07:39Z UTC

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Whoa! I've wanted to try this for awhile but I feel like getting enough animal fat in me to support rigorous workouts would be very difficult. (A girl can only consume so much pemmican ;) ) What is your average day of all animal product like? How much energy output do you generally have?

As do your veggie question, I'd bring in cabbage, kale, or spinach. Cabbage is a fave of mine because you can fry it in lard like onions and pour it over meats.

answered Jan 7 2011 at 18:07

Lurene Grenier
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I basically just eat fatty cuts of meat. Sometimes I eat broth or soup, but usually it's burgers, steaks, or chops. I have plenty of energy for my workouts, but I usually do them fasted. I used to enjoy cabbage, but it's a brassica. WordVixen says cooking removes most goitrogens, though, so that might work. Spinach is high in oxalates, I'm not sure about kale, though. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 5:02

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Yeah, kale is pretty high in oxalates too. It's also in the cabbage family and has goitrogenic properties. – Paleo Seb Jan 8 2011 at 6:24

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And now there's this fun little discovery about brassicas: sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/… – Rose Jun 16 2011 at 17:39

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Cabbage is on the FODMAPs list of foods to avoid, as are onions. Spinach, too, is very high in oxalates. Rose, thanks very much for the link to the article! – PaleoGran Jun 17 2011 at 19:38

Brad · Answer 17 · 2011-01-08 16:03:12Z UTC

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I would be very wary of zero carb diets

link text

answered Jan 8 2011 at 16:03

Brad
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I've read all that, and almost all of it either doesn't apply or is sloppy speculation. In several cases my responses are in the comments there. I'm actually pretty disappointed to see such alarmist sloppiness on an otherwise well-thought out blog. It is the Jaminets that I refer to when I mention "safe starches" in the question. Thanks, though. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 17:54

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Hmm, I generally like to be more constructive than the above, so let me say, I think Jaminet's work is mostly very good, and the Perfect Health Diet makes an excellent starting point (as Chris Masterjohn says in his review: cholesterol-and-health.com/…). My specific criticisms in this case are (1) He had a problem in his own experience, and generated a hypothesis from it (fine!), and then thought of a bunch of plausible mechanisms for his hypothesis and presents it as proof of the hypothesis (misleading and not scientific!) – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 19:01

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(2) The diet he is criticizing isn't even actually zero carb! It is a VLC diet with lots of high fiber, low starch vegetables. I had problems on such a diet, too, which is why I went to a ZC diet in the first place. – Ambimorph Jan 8 2011 at 19:02

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The fact that it wasn't really a zero-carb diet disappointed me more than anything. From at least one theoretical perspective, zero-carb "works" (in those of us for whom it does work) because you're not introducing plant toxins into your body. Who's to say his issues weren't caused by the plants? He had a lapse in reasoning, there. – Rose May 27 2011 at 1:55

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The claimed value of high fiber is based on the same kind of assumption and bad research that brought us the 'grain is good for you!' diet. And as each health claim is invalidated by studies, it's replaced by a new claim based purely on the assumption that it MUST be good for you. It actually might, but this has not been demonstrated by research. – CaveRat Jun 16 2011 at 3:32

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Shirley_Rocks · Answer 18 · 2011-01-10 03:22:03Z UTC

I would guess that any form of kelp would be a good nutritious option. I've done my own research on the cruciferous veggies, and have decided to reintroduce them to my diet because I feel like the studies I looked at show that while the goiterogenic compounds are present, they're in small amounts. I have also gotten more strict about a daily kelp supplement, but a diet of mixed eat and veggies is good for me. All protein and my kidneys start to ache.

Harry · Answer 19 · 2011-06-16 02:07:10Z UTC

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I have an (n=1) study that says my body needs all vegetables, including sea vegetables, and does well on them. No way is an all meat diet in line with what our ancestors ate.

answered Jun 16 2011 at 2:07

Harry
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Good for you. Did you move to all vegetables from a grain-based diet? I'm sure that would be an improvement for anyone. Have you tried a meat based diet for a few weeks and compared it directly? What our ancestors ate was very likely highly meat based, with vegetables used mainly in times of poor hunting. – Ambimorph Jun 16 2011 at 17:11

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I see no evidence of eating vegetables only in times of poor hunting. What I see is lots of scavenging. I also see evidence of our direct ancestors living by the ocean for eons. I have always loved all vegetables. Don't get me wrong, I eat plenty of meat. But I have zero interest in giving up veggies. Now that I have kicked carb craving, I trust what my body wants. – Harry Jun 17 2011 at 4:53

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In "Primal Mind, Primal Body" by Nora T. Gedgaudas it is mentioned that human coprolites from 300,000 to 50,000 years ago showed little to no evidence of plants being eaten in any notable quantity. – Happy Now Aug 3 2011 at 21:00

Katie · Answer 20 · 2011-06-16 17:52:55Z UTC

I am not sure what your concern is or what you mean by "toxins." But if you are concerned about digestive upset, you might want to try to avoid foods high in fermentable sugars, also known as FODMAPs (Fermentable, Oligo-, Di- and Mono-saccharides and Polyols). A low FODMAP diet is often used to treat IBS. FODMAPs aren't "toxins" but they do cause intestinal distress in many people. These include things already banned on Paleo (diary, grains, beans) but also 'approved' foods (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, onions, asparagus, avocado etc.)

Least toxic green vegetable?

20 Answers