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There is an interesting post on Mark's Daily Apple about this. Pretty confrontational in my view. Is homeopathy 'hogwash' as Mark Sisson says? What about vaccines and the controversy surrounding autism?

See this link: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/doctors-as-middlemen-direct-to-consumer-online-testing-services-and-other-consumer-health-trends/

It definitely stirred things up. What do you think? Curious to start a dialogue here, on a different forum.

Cara http://primroseandpaleo.wordpress.com

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 I note that the FAQ for this site says: "Avoid asking questions that are overly subjective, argumentative, or require extended discussion. This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered!" – Elizabeth Jan 20 2011 at 16:13
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 Disagreed with the down vote here. – wjones3044 Jan 20 2011 at 17:44

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There is no vaccine/autism controversy. The study was recently revealed once and for all as a fraud. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Autism/link-vaccine-autism-link-fraud-british-medical-journal/story?id=12547823

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 i don't buy that. if you read up there are news articles on the mass coverup. – Cara Jan 21 2011 at 0:26
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 There is no coverup, except for the fact that Wakefield covered up his own financial interests in the "study" (he was developing a competing vaccine), or Wakefield covering up his completely unethical use of children without parental permission. He is a fraud and a danger and has been struck off for good reason. – Elizabeth Jan 23 2011 at 19:46
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 Wakefield is a hack, Hack, HACK! He makes true scientist and researchers look bad and he makes us all question good science. He pisses me off! Thanks jerk-off for single handedly raising the infant and childhood rates of measles, mumps and rubella worldwide. – Thumper Mar 16 2011 at 22:42
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 The doctor who supposedly revealed that Wakefield's study was inaccurate was recently indicted for fraud for his "study." Follow the money -- big pharma is behind everything that says children should be getting over 30 doses of drugs/chemicals before they're 2 years old. – Ruth Aug 1 2011 at 12:13
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Homeopathy is absolutely, unequivocably hogwash. Please read Ben Goldacre, or any other reputable evidence-based medicine expert.

There is a discussion to be had about the placebo effect, which is powerful. But dilution, impacting, "water memory" etc. is all complete woo.

Ben Goldacre's most recent book: http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Science-Quacks-Pharma-Flacks/dp/0865479186/

A video explaining the ridiculous theory of homeopathic dilution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZiLsFaEzog

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And of course one must refer to xkcd: xkcd.com/765 – misstenacity Jan 6 at 21:15
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I figure that while humans aren't meant to get viruses injected into them, or shower every day, or bleach their laundry, toilets, and kitchens, or sanitize their hands while in public, we also aren't meant to live in groups of tens of thousands where disease is spread rapidly. So I selectively vaccinate (and selectively cleanse myself and my surroundings) based on the best information I have available to me. Flu? Nah. Tetanus, meningitis? Sure.

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If homeopathy worked, then every time you drink water out of the tap, a river, lake, or rain cloud you would be receiving the supposed cures.

Somebody somewhere on the planet used a homeopathy based product, peed (the water in the urine still has the memory). The water in the urine went to a river, that flowed into the ocean. Now all the oceans on the planet are part of the cure. Water evaporated from the ocean and fell as rain (still curing people). That water makes it into a reservoir and people are drinking that water right now.

That's why disease was eliminated thousands of years ago and all our talk of disease and infections is just a hypothetical.

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Homeopathy is hogwash - just to add my opinion to the pot!! What it is good for is proving the phenomenal power of the mind to influence the body and just how amazing the placebo effect is.

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 in a similar way to how the mind is influenced by all thoughts? what about the thought that primal/paleo is good for you? is that thought not influential to your body in promoting healing? – Cara Jan 21 2011 at 0:28
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Nearly all forms of medicine (conventional or alternative) are flawed in some way and are based on the laws of chemistry. Homeopathy is based on physics, so of course when you try to quantify it using chemistry, it's "hogwash." All forms of medicine should compliment each other or be able to be relate to one another. One form of medicine does not always "disprove" another, though some forms of medicine are more effective than others. I suggest looking at my homeopath's website, www.yurkovksy.com. His book, "Protecting Yourself and Your Loved Ones: The Power of Digital Medicine" is particularly informative and convincing.

While I was initially skeptical, my homeopath has drastically helped me with chronic conditions that conventional doctors, naturopaths, and varied diet adjustments failed to improve at all. The placebo effect can't quite be to blame since I tried so many other things over the course of five years.

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 No rigorous studies have proven homeopathy to be more effective than placebo. There is no special physics involved in homeopathy. Any solution diluted as much as a homeopathic solution is, is literally incapable of holding any molecule of the original substance. I'm glad you feel better, but homeopathy is is not medicine, it's snake oil. Your statement about placebo effect not being applicable in your case shows a general lack of understanding of what the placebo effect is. Any placebo treatment - sugar pills, injection of saline, fake operations - can show improvement, based on psych factors. – Elizabeth Jan 20 2011 at 15:04
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 @Elizabeth- true, but many conventional drugs and procedures have been shown to be no more effective than placebos either. Sometimes the placebos come out ahead, too! – WordVixen Jan 20 2011 at 20:00
is paleo/primal placebo? and how many of us are willing to admit THAT? the intention and connection between mind and body.. for science to take credit for that is hogwash! i feel many people who write off these alternative therapies also view their bodies as an enemy, of sorts, and not as the amazing machine it is. – Cara Jan 21 2011 at 0:31
i use homeopathic remedies for my toddlers teething - and it helps him - he doen't know what he's getting so I don't beleive that there can be a placebo effect there - just my own anectodal evidence – Thumper Mar 16 2011 at 22:43
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 Bree - if you know he's getting medicine, and you're the one assessing that it "works" by his behavior, then you are the one possibly being affected by the placebo effect - in addition, kids are susceptible to the effect because they take their cues from their caregivers. It's been well-established in rigorous studies that this is true. – Elizabeth Mar 27 2011 at 0:21
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I know all the logical reasons why homeopathy can't possibly work, but somehow it still seems to do just that sometimes. There have been more studies done in England than in America and several of those have been done with animals. I doubt that a cow is susceptible to the placebo effect. (grin)

Since, as is often said, that anything diluted as much as a homeopathic solution is could not possibly contain even one molecule of the original substance, then it would follow that it also cannot hurt you if it doesn't work. So I would hope we could just hold off on the use of terms like "snake oil" and "hogwash" and let people use it if it works for them - for whatever reason. After all, if there can be no agent in it to cause physical harm, and it helps - even if only by psychological reasons - then I really have no cause to say anything do I?

And if following this path has taught me anything, it is that we DON'T know everything about how the mind and body work which is why I try to keep my discussions open and civil - I may have to eat those words someday.

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 Actually, animals are in fact susceptible to the placebo effect, since the placebo effect has much to do with the expectations of the owner, and the person providing treatment. Again, I cite Ben Goldacre for meta-analysis. Homeopathy cannot poison you, because it is just water. You are correct. But it can harm you if you refuse proven treatment because you think snake-oil will cure you. And homeopaths are not neutral - they are often directly opposed to evidence-based medical science. Therein lies the danger. – Elizabeth Jan 20 2011 at 16:11
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 I will look at the Goldacre reference because I am always interested in learning, but I still believe that if something works for someone - for whatever reason, placebo effect or actual - then IT WORKS FOR THEM and it is not my place to tell them otherwise. I think what got me going on this was Mark's use of the term "hogwash" in his post yesterday. I would think that we in this community would be a little more sensitive to the use of words like that since they are quite often thrown AT us. – JCB Jan 20 2011 at 16:56
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 Were those cow experiments performed double blind? Dowsers have a remarkable ability to locate water, until a double blind experiment is performed. – Jon Thoroddsen Jan 20 2011 at 23:08
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 JCB- that's how I feel.. it's a sad day when the Primal community is so closed minded. in many ways i feel it was intentionally provocative to get people posting, you know a blog scheme! – Cara Jan 21 2011 at 1:17
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 It's all well and good if people want to believe this crap helps them or their pets. Where it gets wrong is when public health schemes funded by tax payers money are expected to pay for it. The National Health Service in England are ready to remove all funding for quack treatments like homeopathy. Australia is also looking at removing funding. – Alan Feb 4 2011 at 12:37
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I talked to a chiropractor recently and I expected him to be a massive quack, but when I asked him what he usually does, he says he tries to get people off of grain, on vitamin D, etc. and I was blown away. He was moving in more naturopathic directions with his practice and seemed to be genuinely interested in improving the health of his patients. As for the actual alignments and so on, I have strong reservations about that, especially since I know a young lady who had a small stroke immediately following a neck alignment, but if homeopaths and naturopaths tell people to stop eating grain, then I'm all for it.

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 This is the good thing about quacks. They will actually listen to you and be sympathetic, and give you some dietary advice which is usually better than what comes from the mainstream. – Jon Thoroddsen Jan 20 2011 at 23:11
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 When Richard Dawkins did a piece on homeopathy comparing it to conventional medicine the striking difference (apart from it being hogwash) was that the NHS Doctor had at best 5-10 min for each patient while the quack spent at least half an hour or more. Dawkins reasoned that just the fact of sitting down and being able to talk to someone about your problems helped immensely. Rest assured if water remembered anything, why wouldn't it remember all the bladders it's been in rather than remember a molecule of a poison? – Alan Feb 4 2011 at 12:27
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I have never taken any homeopathic medicine, and I can't say I fully understand how it works, but what's the difference how it works if people find it beneficial? Energy is real and a powerful thing. I suggest reading up on astrophysics (Max Planck specifically comes to mind). I have a problem with the attitude within modern science that "if we don't understand it, it's not real". Are we really so full of ourselves that we think we know how the universe works?

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In my observations it seems that people who are pro-vaccine are anti-homeopathy, and people who are anti-vaccine are pro-homeopathy. Health benefits/detriments aside, I am somewhat entertained by the divide, seeing as how both are based on the idea that small amounts of a harmful substance will provoke a positive immune response.

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 Small versus non-existent. Significant scientific evidence versus non-repeatable studies. – Karen Aug 1 2011 at 20:38
ain't no money to fund studies for teeny amounts of common substances, karen. – g. Aug 1 2011 at 21:20
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I know someone who has a puppy - they decided to go 100% paleo with dog - no vaccines no tables - nada - well did not go according to plan - dog got fleas / worms and became sick - so it has made me think about it all again.

Having been pro vaccine for so many years - I did think a few times about it - I am really and evidence based person and wakefields study on vaccines ( MMR ) was so flawed its not funny - there is no link. There is more evidence to say that there are more side effects to having the disease than having the vaccine - so I guess I am still pro.

As for Homeopathy - I dont know - I am probably a bit of all - may homeopaths I know follow paleo - and that seems to solve many of the problems of our times

I just dont know - all I know is its good to ask!

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 It's rarely good to encourage people to follow harmful and disastrous practices like avoiding vaccination or going to homeopaths - that's why "it's good to ask" is misleading. Is every opinion just as valid? Is it "good to ask" if the moon is made of green cheese? What's the point of introducing complete provable falsehoods for the sake of discussion? – Elizabeth Jan 20 2011 at 15:06
Sorry, Elizabeth. It was a hot topic on Mark's Primal Blueprint site and wanted to see what other people thought. did not want to ruffle any feathers... some primal PB folks are die hard Mark followers and his post was very sensational. – Cara Jan 21 2011 at 0:24
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 On the other hand my dog had severe convulsions and puked for two days following her first sticks, later came chronic skin and ear disorders (must admit don't know how much the drugs had to do with the last as it could be a trait of the bread)....never had another vaccine after that and she's now 12 year old boxer still going strong. Now she does get a "good doggy diet" with plenty of exercise also. But she has also been kenneled and around many other dogs/outside a lot. She's a great dog. This is just as anecdotal as your experience, but there it is – JayJay Aug 1 2011 at 21:24
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Im dont use homeopathy pills. i have used occasionally and met a lot practicener and client who used it. its not a quak as the populist posters here report. i think sometimes the quack claimer are more quack than the alternative practicioners. i know there is a lot of fraud going on in alternative medicine. still its all balanced somehow. we have a lot of this in germany two. in berlin is a big school for homeopathy and if you hear the reports from the practiceners or be around with them you know this is much more than quack or fraud. this is real and working. and even the placebo studies are very different.

to claim it quack or fruad is very simple thought. still i noticed that its imoprtant to do so cause a lot dont realy know on homeopathy or do it wrong or just cost cash. still im more for free medicine. what is wild herbs. this herbs are growing for everyone. By the way you can make your own homeopathic medicine with some effort or with less regulation. just make a substance you wanna to dillute.

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