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So, I'm in high school and I want to sign up for Junior Varsity XC in the fall, but I want to know if the like 5-6 mile distance is considered unhealthy by the general paleo crowd. I know people like John Durant and the rest at NYC Barefoot disagree, but I'm not entirely sure.

I want to ask this now since I'm just in early training, while I work on my aerobic and anaerobic efficiency (for many things, not just XC). Thanks for any responses, but even if it's conclusively decided to be bad for me, I will most likely do it anyways; I'm stubborn that way.

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Imagine you wounded a deer-like animal, and then have to chase it so you won't have to go back the village empty-handed and get yelled at by the elders. – Carl_Stawicki Apr 15 2011 at 20:14

11 Answers

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Hi i'm in high school too. Its good to see other youngsters taking the initiative. I think that if XC running is something you want to do and something you will enjoy then go ahead. Remember its all about doing things you enjoy.

On the downside, I imagine most of your training sessions will be lots of running so there'll be a fair amount of cardio involved if you want to get serious. Also you'll need to consume more carbohydrates if you're doing a lot of cardio. Long distance running can be counter productive as it encourages sugar and carbohydrate cravings which will help you to gain weight if you're not careful. So its not optimal Paleo exercise - as that would be to stick to more fast and intense work.

I think you can be alright though. I would recommend reading "The Paleo Diet for Athletes" by Loren Cordain and Joe Friel because this will tell you the five stages and when and how much carbohydrates you will need.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-you-need.html This article has a table near the bottom, which will theoretically tell you how many carbohydratess you will need based on your energy levels; however this will vary dependent on sex, body size etc.

Hope I've helped.

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Excellent answer! :D – gilliebean Apr 15 2011 at 20:26
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you know i can do endurance work and cardio fueled by fat just fine, in fact i don't get the brief (about 10 min) "sleepy" factor I would if were to top off with some carbs mid exercise. To my knowledge, the only downside of doing endurance fueled by fat is that sprinting is slightly dimished. You can run longer faster steadier but your peak short bursts of speed may not be as high. Thats fine with me. – tartare Apr 15 2011 at 20:29
I would guess the Inuit also did a lot of endurance hunts, either by kayak, or long distance walking out on the ice looking for seal holes and what not (or going after caribou). Sled dogs certainly help, but I'm pretty sure those guys could do heavy endurance fueled entirely on whale blubber. – RG73 Apr 15 2011 at 20:40
I imagine our Paleolithic ancestors would have participated in long distance hunts. But they would have normally stalked their prey and wouldn't have wasted any unneccesary energy. – paleoboy Apr 15 2011 at 21:04
Also if cardio is less effective and takes longer why do it? Unless it has a purpose such as doing XC running or marathons. – paleoboy Apr 15 2011 at 21:05
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I don't know who considers 5 or 6 miles of running unhealthy. I reckon that if you couldn't run 5 or 6 miles at a time back in the day you'd be very hungry and/or very dead. Hunters in the Kalahari run down big game in the desert running up 20 miles in a day. Me, I absolutely hate running, I'd be an ambush hunter (I'm good on a sprint)...but the notion that we're ill adapted for running long distances seems odd to me.

As for the notion that you need a lot of carbs for running...why? The bushman in the Kalahari running in the desert sun for 8 hours is probably doing it while IFing. He's gonna run down that kudu and gorge on meat after the kill. You think he's going to sit down to a nice big bowl of carbs after a marathon hunt? No way. Dude is going to drink some blood, eat some brain and suck some marrow.

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Now I want to run down a kudu, so i can drink some blood, eat some brain and suck some marrow. Better yet, put it in a petting zoo, so I can leap on its back and bite thru its Jugular. – Stephen-Aegis Apr 15 2011 at 21:23
You absolutely hate running? We're built to love it! Are you sure you're doing it right? Barefoot? Correct technique? Nice grass? Cool, uneven terrain? Stuff to jump off of? Rocks to climb over? If you're running with correct technique and in a cool setting, it should be AWESOME! To fix this though, I need to know what EXACTLY it means for you to hate it. Are you getting a painful bouncing sensation in your head? Perhaps a stabbing sensation in your knees? Breathing problems? Ankle pain? What? There's a lot of things that could ruin it for you. Take that away, and you'll love it! – Anonymous Coward Apr 16 2011 at 2:08
Anonymous coward, everyone is different. I hate running too, but not because it's painful or I'm doing it wrong. It's just boring and there are a million things I'd rather be doing. I'm good at it too, but it's just no fun. – mari Apr 16 2011 at 22:04
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I love sprinting. I don't mind biking distances. Or swimming distance. Or walking for distance. Cross country skiing. Rowing. Kayaking. Anything but running long distances. I'm with Mari...it just bores me to tears. – RG73 Apr 16 2011 at 22:39
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Five or six miles? It's cake. You'll be fine.

I've done a half-marathon, a sprint triathlon, and a full marathon. I plan to stick with triathlons and half-marathons in the future. Okay, maybe one or two more marathons...

I think anyone can train and run for any distance up to a half-marathon without deleterious effects. Once a person goes past 13.1 miles, I think he or she will find their "point of diminishing returns" rather quickly.

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Yeah, I've done a bunch of 1/2 marathons and a sprint triathlon or two, but a full marathon just doesn't appeal to me. (Congrats on yours though, awesome accomplishment.) For me that would be 6 hours of running. Yuck. – sherpamelissa Apr 15 2011 at 20:17
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5-6 miles is not excessive at all. Our ancestors must have done a lot of running and walking in search of food.

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Distance running is great. Watch this video. The ancients probably had to do a lot of running to get food. Not only chasing down animals (which we're great at apparently!), but also simply searching for sources of water, places where there's a lot of some kind of plant, etc.

If everything you needed was concentrated somewhere, of course you'd just move there. But what if most of what you need to concentrated somewhere, but there's 1-2 things that you need to go far for? Set up home base where everything else is, and run back and forth to get to the few things that aren't around!

Not that I have any idea what I'm talking about or anything. Perhaps they were already running or walking from one place to next, never setting up a home base. But then that would simply support long distance EVEN MORE. Either way, seems like we're good at running long distance... If you wanna be healthy, do what we're good at!

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I love a good run and have done up to 10 miles without needing to make any significant changes to my food intake before hand (no carbo-loading, or the like). Have a blast. I think all healthy humans should be able to handle a 5-6 mile spontaneous run.

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As a follow up to Dr. K's telemere comments.

Take a look at these postings back a year ago when Paleohacks was in its infancy regarding CVD and running: http://paleohacks.com/questions/2469/long-distance-running-and-heart-disease#axzz1JisHsczX

http://paleohacks.com/questions/3429/long-distance-running-and-paleo#axzz1JisHsczX

And we have these records of history of death by running...maybe legend or some truth:

According to the legend, a Greek runner by the name of Pheidippides ran in excess of 145 miles from Athens to Sparta in roughly 24 hours, which was quite a display of ultraendurance athleticism. Pheidippides followed up on this feat by running an additional 26 miles from Marathon to Athens to announce a great Greek victory. When he reached Athens he proclaimed either "Nike" (Victory) or "Be Happy! We have won!" Pheidippides then fell to the ground---dead. Recall the fate of famed long distance runner, Jim Fixx, who died of a massive heart attack at age 52 after going for his routine morning run.

All his family had heart disease and all were carb loaders. Chronic long distance was the cure for heart diesease. Not when carb loading is involved....and probably never.

The scientific literature is filled with data that strongly make the case that long-distance runners are much more likely to develop cardiovascular disease, atrial fibrillation, cancer, liver and gallbladder disorders, muscle damage, kidney dysfunction, (renal abnormalities), acute microthrombosis in the vascular system, brain damage, spinal degeneration, and germ-cell cancers than are their less active counterparts.

Taken from Body by Science, Authors Doug McGuff, MD & John Little, Page 6

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Acac and aca are studying early cardiac death in distance runners now.....what they are finding is shocking the dogma out there and will change what we recommend – The Quilt Apr 16 2011 at 23:50
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Not elite or anything, but I completed the Shamrock Marathon recently after 60 days of straight Paleo. I 'carb-loaded' on sweet potatos and plantains 1-2 days before and kept almond butter squeeze gels on me for fuel during the race. It took 6 hours, not much different than when I ran a marathon on SAD a decade ago. I also ran the whole thing in Vibram Five Fingers. Felt primal, and felt good..

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When I was in high school I was on sprint team, but we had regular long-distance (for a sprinter, about 3-6miles) runs incorporated. The good thing was, that it wasn't on a flat boring track, but through small forest, dirty paths and occasional mud and dirt. Now that was FUN! I still can't think of long running, so boring... but when I am on a hike, I often just want to run through the woods, with total euphoria and joy. For the sake of running.

Do what's fun, what makes you feel good and what you feel you are good at. The moment you feel it's painful, boring or too stressful on your body - try something different.

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I am an endurance athlete (cyclist) and I am able to ride at heart rates of 160s being fueled completely by fat and I even get about 80% of my fuel from fat in the 170s.

Do what you enjoy doing, and you'll see that a high fat/high protein diet will serve you well running long distances.

Also you should check out the crossfit endurance website. Im sure your workouts are already set for the team, but these guys are really onto something great. One of the founders (Brian) has run a couple of 100 mile runs and I asked him what the longest training run he did leading up to it and he said 15 miles.

Good luck and have fun!

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*I should add that I am basing those heart rate numbers on metabolic efficiency testing I had done in a lab. Also, even though I enjoyed 'Paleo Diet for Athletes', I think Friel/Cordain overestimate the carb needs for people who are really dialed in with a paleo diet. – Jeff Apr 16 2011 at 2:10
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Cross country running or skiing plus paleo is an oxymoron and might eventually kill you via apoptosis or senescence which ever your programmed for first".......I'll pass

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These exercise actually shorten telomeres.......cardio exercise to an excess actually kill you. People can down vote it if they choose but telomere biology is clear.....you do cardio you eventually loose because of how our mitochondria work against our telomeres. If you follow a simplistic paleo logic that ancient man did it why should not we......you miss the point. Man today knows better......science shows that longevity is not tied to any cardio......it is tied to telomere biology. – The Quilt Apr 16 2011 at 16:35
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The simple response is look at a marathoner vs a sprinter......who do you suppose is healthier? We already know the answer. It appears many on here don't. I say read more. Aerobics are not ideal for us. We can do it.....but it is not optimal – The Quilt Apr 16 2011 at 16:39
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The reason it's down voted is because it goes against what you believe and what you like to do. It's fine by me.....but my job is to educate you on what we know now.....not what we believed to be true yesterday. – The Quilt Apr 16 2011 at 16:41
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Citation that running shortens telomeres please? Running is going to cause apoptosis? Seriously? That makes zero evolutionary sense. Mitochondria work against our telomeres? Separate genomes. What is the biological mechanism? – RG73 Apr 16 2011 at 22:43
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Werner et al. 2008, Werner et al. 2009, Puterman et al. 2010, LaRocca et al. 2010. I mean I could go on with this all day...I just find papers showing the opposite of what you're saying. Your maybe going off Collins et al. 2003, but they were looking specifically at overtrained athletes. Shin et al. didn't find the effect. Kadi et al. didn't find it. DeRae et al did, but that paper has all of 3 citations, so it hasn't been well regarded. So what are the papers I'm missing? – RG73 Apr 16 2011 at 23:09
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