Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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Hi all,

I hope I can get some answers here. I'm sorry if this is on the long-ish side.

I'm 36, female, 5'5". In September 2010 I was at a healthy weight, 135 lbs with 23-24% bodyfat. I felt I could stand to lose some more BF, but I knew the low-fat, high-carb, always-hungry, always-tired nonsense wasn't working. So I turned to Paleo. To make a long story short, over the course of this year I noticed my clothing getting tighter. My weight is currently fluctuating between 140-143 lbs, which may not seem like much. It's not the weight that's freaking me out, it's my BF. I measured it for the first time in a while last month, and it was 36% - that's 12% higher, and well above the healthy level. I'm shocked, confused, and don't know what to do.

Over the last 4 weeks I've tried cutting out ALL sugar, dairy, rice, and potatoes, limiting fruits and nuts to once or twice a week and cutting them out completely, exercising less, intermittent fasting, eating more, eating more carbs, eating less carbs, eating more protein... No effect.

Right now I eat about 1200-1500 cal a day, 60-30-10% fat-protein-carb. Most days my carbs are under 50g. My protein is 60-70g. Staples are eggs, avocados, beef, chicken, pork, lamb, salmon, cod, tuna, shrimp, crab, bacon and other cured meats now and then, cabbage, zucchini, mushrooms, tomatoes, peppers, carrots, spinach, greens, cucumbers, radishes, broccoli, cauliflower, olive oil, butter, ghee, heavy cream. Some honey in my homemade salad dressing. I try to go for organic/grass-fed/pastured whenever I can. I typically eat between 12 pm and 8 pm, usually two large meals or three small ones. I do interval training twice a week and high-impact cardio once a week. I walk a lot. To supplement I take B12 complex and just started to take cod liver oil.

I have at least 2 cups of coffee a day, and I put a 1/2 tsp of sugar in it, and I also love wine with my dinner (I figure if Mark Sisson does those things, I can too). I admit that I do have stress in my life, and occasionally don't get enough sleep. I'm a workaholic, and a mom of two very active young boys, so most days stress just happens. Could these things have caused my fat gain? If so, why didn't they affect me before now? Or do I possibly have a condition? I had my thyroid tested in March 2010 and it was fine, could paleo have caused it to act up?

I LOVE paleo, feel great on it and would want to continue, but this BF gain is freaking me out. Any answers/theories are appreciated. Thanks!

edited Jul 5 2011 at 3:31

asked Jun 18 2011 at 20:41

BeastGirl
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Try to increase starch and decrease fat for a while and see how it goes. – Travis Culp♦ Jun 18 2011 at 20:47

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She says she's eating 1500-1600 calories a day. I'm not sure it'd be wise to go much lower. – mari Jun 18 2011 at 23:00

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Agreed, mari - I find that increasing my non-carb calories (i.e., fat) if anything tends to result in just a little more weight loss. – CaveRat Jun 19 2011 at 1:03

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50g a day greatly increases cortisol, while a high intake of LCFAs causes most of them to be stored in adipocytes. A carb intake that matches glycogen usage is ideal. Without anaerobic exercise, that's about 130g a day. – Travis Culp♦ Jun 19 2011 at 3:15

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What makes you think 50g a day greatly increases cortisol? I don't think that's right at all. – Ambimorph Jun 19 2011 at 4:19

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Patrik · Accepted Answer · 2011-06-18 22:24:05Z UTC

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PaleoLiz,

Your BF measurements are off, of that I am sure. Some rough, back of the envelope math:

At 135 lbs, 23% BF - you had 31.05 lbs of fat mass.

Now at 142 lbs, 36% BF - you have (ostensibly) have 51.12 lbs of fat mass

51.12 - 31.05 = 20.07 lb gain

This implies that you have actually not only gained absolute weight (7 lbs = 142 - 135) -- but actually existing displaced lean body mass and bone mass with fat -- to the tune of 13 lbs or so.

I doubt that this actually happened - so don't stress about it.

answered Jun 18 2011 at 22:24

Patrik♦♦
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True. I've never came across a reliable way of knowing their percentage. Here is a decent post: leighpeele.com/body-fat-pictures-and-percentages – ben61820 Jun 19 2011 at 1:28

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Never thought of it this way... However, I used the same scale to measure the BF. It's the Omron HBF-400 BF Monitor, which is supposed to be accurate. It's why I got it, for the BF. I believe weight is irrelevant. I know I gained BF because of my measurements - +2" waist and +2" hips in the last year. I may not have gained quite as much BF as the scale claims, but I did gain. I agree with whoever said it could be off 2-3%, but 12-13%? Doubt it... – BeastGirl Jun 19 2011 at 2:00

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ben61820 - thanks for the link! Really interesting. Now I'm sure the scale is wrong. I look half the size of the woman with 30% BF, to say the least. More like the 25% one, except I carry most of my "junk" on my hips. – BeastGirl Jun 19 2011 at 2:30

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Most reliable way is with a DEXA scan. Cost - out of pocket $100 aprox. Do a google search for one in your area. – Bill1102inf Jun 19 2011 at 21:54

I wonder about the accuracy of those pics. About 10 years ago, I participated in a trial in which I was dexa scanned. My BF percentage was well, well above 30 (scary!), but I also looked smaller than that woman. Perhaps bone/muscle is accounting for the difference, idk... – esque Jul 5 2011 at 4:59

baconbitch · Answer 2 · 2011-06-18 21:29:32Z UTC

I think you answered your questions: workaholic, stress, refined sugar. I'm your age and noticed in the last two years stress has a profound impact on my weight. Just stressing about stress puts a pound on me :)

First off, take a deeeeep breath and stop beating yourself up. Start experimenting. I did a 30 day experiment where I took out almost everything then re-entered one thing each week to see what happened to my mind/body. I found a lot about what I can/can't tolerate this way. I lost weight and gained muscle and went from a size 4 to a size 1 in record time. It was all about being mindful of what I was putting into my body and WHEN I put it into my body. I found out I do much better eating in the evening. I never would have known that if I didn't take the time to slow down and think.

I'm NOT a big into meditation and suck at it but taking 5 minutes to breath deeply and turn off my mind has big a huge help for me. I'm a single mom with 2 kids so believe me, I totally relate.

You didn't mention exercise. Personally, 15 minutes/day is essential for me. Even if I'm simply doing body weight exercises or walking with the kids. Shoot - go across the monkey bars when the kids are at the park. Chase their little butts through the jungle gym and up and down the slides! Little bits here and there make a difference.

PrairieProf · Answer 3 · 2011-06-18 21:17:53Z UTC

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Leaving aside all the biological factors it might be, how was the bodyfat measured? Either the former or latter measurements might have been off. Most ways of evaluating are very inexact, is my understanding.

answered Jun 18 2011 at 21:17

PrairieProf
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Especially with the handheld fat measurement. – Eazine Jun 18 2011 at 21:33

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Whoops, the handheld fat measurement devices which can be off depending on when you worked out, when you drank water last, ect. – Eazine Jun 18 2011 at 21:35

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I'm going to +1 this answer. If your BF was measured in Sept at 23-24%, how was it measured? Was the SAME device/technique used to measure it last month to come up with the 36% figure? If not, then know that the techniques can very significantly. I had a hydrostatic test done last weekend, came home and stood on my Tanita scale and the numbers were off by almost 3%. Consistency is key, both in how your measured, and what you do. Relax... it's hard for me too. :) – Scart Jun 18 2011 at 22:07

Eazine - no, no handheld monitors. I used the Omron HBF-400 BF Monitor. A friend of mine who's a fitness trainer swears by it. Scart - I understand that those things can be off a couple of %. But a dozen? – BeastGirl Jun 19 2011 at 2:02

Eric · Answer 4 · 2011-06-18 22:52:12Z UTC

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a minimum of 7 hours of sleep is needed. too much alcohol will foil weight loss. I love Mark but he can get away with stuff that others can't...

edited Jun 18 2011 at 22:52

answered Jun 18 2011 at 22:43

Eric
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From what I understand our livers gives preferential treatment to alcohol and during the time it is processing it (up to 4 hours) the food gets stored directly as fat. So even if you eat a meal and have alcohol afterwards it cuts to the front of the line... – Eric Jun 18 2011 at 23:27

I'm still figuring out where alcohol (dry - no sugar) fits in, since I drink a fair amount of it. So far my understanding is that it's a ketogenic process - it's not analogous to burning carbs (with insulin response) but to burning fat. It's preferentially processed ahead of fatty acids, so during that time you're not burning fat, but you're not actively storing it either like you would with sugar (unless you also were consuming sugars). – CaveRat Jun 19 2011 at 1:08

LOL, I think I agree... Here's where the confusion sets in: I know stress is bad. Alcohol is my de-stressor. It's why I drink it. It's not for the taste, that's for sure! Nothing else works this well to relax me after a long day. I never get piss drunk wasted, one glass of wine and I'm right as rain. So the question is, which is the lesser of the two evils? Alcohol or stress? – BeastGirl Jun 19 2011 at 2:12

Exercise will help with stress... Even a 30 min walk... – Eric Jun 19 2011 at 3:02

Not for me, Eric... I used to exercise 5-6 days a week, cardio all the time. That kept me stressed. I cut it down to 4 times a week, was still stressed. I can only handle high-impact cardio once a week, and intervals twice a week without getting stressed. And I do walk. We don't own a car so walking my preferred method of transportation most days. – BeastGirl Jun 20 2011 at 2:41

CaveRat · Answer 5 · 2011-06-19 02:37:01Z UTC

It's mysterious! I don't have a definitive Answer like the many excellent ones here already (it sounds like you've nailed the diet really well), but just a couple thoughts:

How much cabbage are you eating, and is it uncooked? Most other Brassicas are rarely eaten raw, but cabbage is often made into sauerkraut. Uncooked Brassicas are goitergenic - in large quantities can cause hypothyroidism.
Speaking of thyroid, have you had the full panel done? Not just TSH but T3, T4, TPO - you can go further but those are considered minimal - and most doctors don't order them all! I developed a minor goiter (I don't know if paleo had a role - probably it just became noticeable when I lost weight) and while my TSH was normal, further tests (gotten at my own expense) indicated hypothyroidism after all.
I found that my own wine consumption went way up after I went 'low carb'. I drink it dry, but my understanding is that it's metabolized like a fatty acid not like a sugar, and that it is 'preferentially' consumed ahead of fats. This implies that, while it doesn't do the sugar/insulin bad thing, it will stall weight loss by getting in the way of fat metabolism. Can anyone confirm this? I've found remarkably little good info on this subject...
My scale measures body fat (though not with the handheld part) but I don't trust it at all. I've lost over 30 lbs, yet it says my fat and water are exactly where they were six months ago. I don't think I lost much or any muscle, but if I did it's not 30 lbs! My theory is that my body composition (skinny legs - the Family Curse) is just not well measured by that device. Your body shape might be shifting the percentages way off.

Good luck - let us know how it goes!

animalcule · Answer 6 · 2011-06-19 19:52:13Z UTC

Those scales are 100% bullshit. Zero evidence that they are accurate. If you would like to know your actual body fat percentage, please get tested with calipers, BodPod, DEXA scan, or hydrostatic weighing. I would bet you $100 it's nowhere near 36% body fat!

I have heard of a lot of people having worsening or developing hypothyroid due to a low-carb, unprocessed 'paleo' diet with no sources of iodine, so I would get that checked out as well. Also, you say you have two young boys - if one was recently born/weaned, that's often a trigger for hypo stuff as well.

You might also be one of those women who has more success with maintaining a good weight/leanness with a higher proportion of carbs on a paleo-style diet. They are out there! My body comp personally does not change much no matter what I eat, but I feel physically and emotionally SO much better eating moderate carbs. Since you were fit, lean and thin before on a high-carb low-fat diet (although with other issues), maybe the middle ground would work better for you. Say 50/20/30 F/P/C.

UncleLongHair · Answer 7 · 2011-07-05 15:17:08Z UTC

I agree with the comments about the accuracy of the body fat % measurements. I have one of those Tanita scales, and years ago I lost about 30 pounds (from about 220 to 190) while working out every day, went down 3 inches on my waist size, and it said my body fat percentage never changed from 26% (I am 41 y.o. male, 6' tall). I really don't think that was physically possible.

I would, however, use the "how do my pants fit" metric, in fact that is the primary way that I measure my progress. If you are putting on weight around your waist, that is probably not a good thing, there is pretty much no way to put on muscle weight around your waist... I wouldn't freak out, but look at making some changes in your diet.

It sounds like your Paleo diet from Sept 2010 up until a month ago was different than your diet of the past 4 weeks. I have been strict Paleo for a couple of months, and your diet of the past 4 weeks sounds very close to mine (including a penchant for wine!). For me, the starchy carbs (rice, potatoes, grains) are like an on/off switch for weight. When I have even a little of them (small portion 3x per week), the weight stays on or goes up. When I give them up, I drop 5+ pounds pretty quickly. I have learned that I just can't have them, and am strict about it.

When I first started Paleo, I lost about 7-8 pounds quickly and then nothing more. It was kind of frustrating because I knew I wasn't eating a lot, including some fasting, I was exercising more than previously, and thought I'd lose weight, but I didn't. But I felt so much better I didn't care much.

Then one day at around week 7, I stepped on the scale and was 3 pounds lighter. So I dug through the closet and pulled out some old jeans that I hadn't worn in almost 10 years, and they fit, in fact some of them were loose. I have heard this from other people too. I think it can take a while to adapt to a new diet, stick to it strictly for 2-3 months before you decide it isn't working.

Also, ironically, I have found that cheating about once every week or two actually takes the weight off. A few times I got stuck eating non-Paleo food (i.e. staying with friends or family and just going with the flow), and to my surprise a few days later I was lighter and the pants were looser. Haven't figured that out completely, but it sure helps the diet to feel that you can eat anything you want once every couple of weeks.

Finally, when I first started, my main form of exercise was running about 3 miles 3-4x per week, i.e. almost all cardio. I don't like lifting weights so have always had a bias towards cardio. Even though I had more energy with Paleo, I was not increasing my running distance and was not losing any more weight.

After some discussion here, I decided to switch to high-intensity strength training. I like kettlebells, so I do a combination of kettlebells, push-ups, and Burpees for about 30 minutes every other day, a very intense workout with no breaks. This too was like flipping a switch -- after just a few weeks, I put on noticeable muscle in my arms and lost another inch from my waist.

So after working on it for a while I found two things that make a huge difference for me -- dropping grains and starchy carbs completely, and changing the exercise regimen. Keep at it and you'll find the right combination for you. Good luck, and post back here after a while and let us know how you're doing.

paleopete · Answer 8 · 2011-06-19 04:22:19Z UTC

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"I do interval training twice a week and high-impact cardio once a week."

You NEED to lift weights.

If you are doing HIIT intervals right, you probably should not be doing them twice a week. And the "high impact cardio" is likely worsening your body's cortisol response (not sure what you mean by that but it doesn't sound good...).

As Mark S says "lift heavy things", it's a fundamental principle of his philosophy. You can't replace it with intervals, they are not the same.

I recommend "stronglifts 5x5" (Google it) or something like that which has you do full-body weights like squats (an ESSENTIAL ingredient in any good lifting plan) which will get your body to start changing composition by increasing hgh and testosterone (or something, Sission and others have the details on why)

After a workout like this, I find it relaxes my mind and leads to better sleep as well, which could reduce your need for wine and help in that regard as well.

answered Jun 19 2011 at 4:22

paleopete
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	The cardio I do is zumba. Honestly, I enjoy it. I used to do it 4-5 times a week, but could feel it taking its toll on me, so I stopped. My gym varies intervals, some days we have Tabata, other days HIITs with kickboxing and weights. Plus I do weights at home on the days I don't go to them gym. I was told it's good to give your muscles a rest for a day after lifting, so I lift every other day. Is it BS? Should I do it every day? – BeastGirl Jun 20 2011 at 2:52
	no not every day! Less not more! Unless you are a professional athlete and getting 8-10+ hours of sleep every night I don't think you should be training nearly that much! From what I understand of paleo philosophy, your fitness regime is not very paleo. Your workouts should be tailored to prompting hormone response and CNS stimulation. Of course the others answers could be right, but it seems to me that your fitness is pretty far off. Hope this helps! marksdailyapple.com/… – paleopete Jun 22 2011 at 2:39
	Pete, I didn't mean I'm doing intense lifting every day. On my non-gym days I do 15-20 minutes with my 8-lb dumbbells, just to target all muscle groups. Thanks for the link, it helps. – BeastGirl Jun 28 2011 at 0:09
	Then you are just wasting your time and sabotaging yourself even more....Doing big compound movements is what triggers your central nervous system to adapt and get stronger, if you want to "tone" then the diet will do that. – paleopete Jul 2 2011 at 19:36
	It just sounds to me like your are still not quite embracing the paleo philosophy, overdoing the intensity (which I still think you are doing) and things like "targeting muscle groups" (pure CW BS imho) are exactly the things Mark S and others warn against! It's fine to not embrace everything, but you are missing out on the big picture,and not getting the benefits you desire, which would be fine if it was working for you but based on your question looks like it's not....for me the 3 compound excercises 3x/week is all the strength and tone I need, so I def reccommend giving it a try. – paleopete Jul 2 2011 at 19:38

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Senya · Answer 9 · 2011-06-19 11:37:39Z UTC

one more thing - take a look and read how your scale actually does the bodyfat calculation. I didn't look up Omcron, I have a Tanita and it turns out it really "measures" bodyfat by a calculation through water % since water/ muscle and bodyfat have much different electrical conductance.

I didn't read all the comments above - big list! : ) - however agree with the "don't stress about it" and also anyone who said to really take a hard look for all that hidden sugar - you 'fess up to the coffee but if anything is insidious in this society it's sugar, HFCS, etc. It's everywhere and so negative for the system.

I've had the same thing happen to me, hence the research on my scale, and still haven't cracked it. For me, it was dairy (half and half in coffee), which I've now severly limited and am trying to cut out altogether. I also was eating more cashews and other high omega-6 nuts and am trying fish oil capsules for a bit to get the ratio back.

Gained 13% bodyfat, freaking out! Help!

9 Answers