Ok, so I admit it, I'm lacto-paleo.
Apparently this is some sort of abomination, because in discussions I've had around the web it seems like people fixate on that fact and won't help me with anything else until I swear off the stuff.
I've never been a big dairy eater, but I still enjoy having a little bit of sour cream on taco salads and cheese (portabella pizza anyone?). And every now and then, coconut milk isn't available and I use half & half or cream in my coffee. (Ye gods, the world might end when I do that!)
I'm even in the works to get raw milk from a local farm in the next few weeks to make my own yogurt.
Someone said "Dairy is only designed to fatten up young, so that's why you're not losing weight." Does that have any merit?
P.S. Other paleo in the house is probably always going to eat dairy as well, so even if I had to stop eating it, it would be difficult because it wouldn't be a mutual thing.
P.P.S. I should also add that I've NEVER EVER had an issue with lactose intolerance in my entire life. I've been drinking / consuming dairy since I was a kid with zero intestinal, or digestive issues what so ever.
Oranges, I think your main question is why you are having a hard time getting advice you feel you can use from other forums because when you tell them what you eat, they tell you to drop dairy and that's not what you want to hear.
Number one, I think you should probably pick the forum/message board that best supports your views on Paleo and nutrition and stick with it. Most forums have kind of a personality and you are likely to get a lot of conflicting, confusing advice if you keep posting the same question on a bunch of different Paleo forums.
Number two, you may need to drop dairy in order to lose weight. You won't know for sure until you try it. Dairy can be paleo, but that doesn't mean it is right for you and your weight loss journey.
I know it is tough to give up dairy if you are used to having it, but it is worth giving it a shot for 30 days. You have to be strict with it though, or there is no point in even trying.
You have to prepare for situations like the taco lunch and work and bring your own food or skip the meal. I know it feels weird to be different than everyone else. You don't want to bring attention to yourself and your weight or your eating issues. Trust me, most people are impressed when you stick to your nutrition plan despite temptations. The more you do it, the more you'll get used to the feeling.
With your coffee, you need to either learn to like it black or try coconut milk/almond milk as another choice.
Or... you can keep asking for advice and not listening to any of it. Sometimes, it's just not what you want to hear. For me it's fruit. I can't eat very much or I gain weight. It sucks, but I prefer to keep my weight down rather than eat yummy bananas. It doesn't matter what your housemates can do, each body and how we react to food is slightly different. You have to find what works for you and stop worrying about what works for them and how unfair it is that you can't eat like they do.
P.S. I think Body Pump is fine for your fitness! You don't need to do free weights. Enjoy your class.
The primal way, or lacto-paleo is great, but if you do a little searching around MDA, you will see that Mark even gives some advice on dairy. He says to use the best kinds, as in raw, aged, fermented, etc (no highly processed cheeses) , and it should be used more as a condiment than a staple item in your diet. I think adding a sprinkle of goat cheese on a salad, a bit of heavy cream in coffee or tea, and cooking with butter should do no harm, but eating copious amounts of full fat dairy may stall weight loss, or promote gain. Again I think it also has a lot to do with the amount of weight you have to lose also. If it's the last 10 pounds, then you may have to watch or tweak a bit more than someone who is just jumping into the paleo lifestyle and has a lot to lose.
Just some food for thought on the matter, Bill (my other half) has been eating full fat greek yogurt for the past few weeks and it has helped him put on weight. We both work hard in the gym, and he needs a lot of calories. He was blessed with a wicked metabolism. If he doesn't eat enough he loses weight, especially with paleo (it's like a sick joke...)
I on the other hand will put cream in my organic decaf (which I do not have daily), because I love the flavor of coffee and it makes me happy, and I will use kerrygold butter for cooking sometimes. However I stick to coconut oil for the most part. I have seen no ill effects from this, but I consciously avoid other full fat dairy. Every once in a while we will use it for a recipe which I will try, but beyond that it's not part of my diet.
To each their own, and I think the best answer is to enjoy the journey and keep being aware of what your body tells you. The best part about this lifestyle is that it is indeed a lifestyle and you learn what works for you as you go. If you have a feeling that dairy might be stalling you, make some tweaks and try that out for a few weeks to see. You will get there, and try to enjoy the ride as you go. Being aware and intuitive about it all is so important, and something I try to practice daily. Your body will tell you what it needs, although it is easy to stress and over think things when you aren't seeing results, and you hear about others that seem to have it so easy with weight loss on paleo. You are doing a great job!
I've seen what you're talking about, and WOW, the comments on this page are a really clear example of it. Non-lacto people DO fixate on dairy, sometimes to the point of being extremely condemning of it. And it can be really, really frustrating for the lacto-Paleos who feel like they are being repeatedly castigated about it every time they admit it.
(And, let's face it, it's probably no different from when Vegetarians do the same sort of thing to Paleos... or when Paleos do it to Vegans... or when the "Zero-carb Hezbollah" starts frothing at the mouth when someone mentions they (gasp!) ate a yam... etc. etc. etc.)
Dairy seems to be one of the more polarizing issues in the Paleosphere. It's especially difficult because there are not two, but three basic camps when it comes to dairy, and as has been mentioned before, since there's not necessarily a clear or standardized way to identify the different types of Paleo, this makes it more complicated to talk about, too. I'm going to invent some temporary labels to illustrate the point:
(Of course, it's actually a whole spectrum, with many points between these three, but let's just roll with this generalization for a minute...)
The Anti-Lacto folks often don't distinguish between Moderate-Lacto and Pro-Lacto, which sometimes confuses the issue, because if you're doing the Moderate-Lacto thing, you kinda want to scream when the Anti-Lacto types are ripping you a new one about the dairy products you aren't even eating.
It even seems like there are a few Anti-Lacto folks who simply don't consider Moderate-Lacto or Pro-Lacto folks to be Paleo at all, but just lazy or delusional dabblers who can't seem to commit to doing things the Right Way, and who are doing harm to the Paleo movement by watering it down with their irresponsible liberal attitude. (This bit of hyperbole is leading to a point, please bear with me.)
I keep coming back to the comparison between diet/exercise attitude and religious attitude. In both, you see the same patterns of behaviors, identity crises, tolerance issues, conservative fundamentalism, flakey syncretic liberals, curious newbie dabblers and tourists, evangelists, lifestylers, squirrely and sometimes embarrassing media coverage, etc. It's kinda spooky. Case in point? Go back to the above and replace the terms: Anti-Lacto=Orthodox, Moderate-Lacto=Conservative, Pro-Lacto=Reform, Paleo=Jewish. (I could have picked any religion, really.)
We each have our beliefs about it, based on our research and experiences. Yes, there's written documentation out there, but it's confusing and contradictory, especially to the layman. Each of us is stuck trying to find the truth for ourselves, and what's right for us.
There will be fundamentalists. There will be scholars. There will be fringe loonies. And more than any of these, there will be a lot of reasonable, moderate folks who just quietly do their thing and don't join in the heated discussions. =) That's probably the important thing to keep in mind: for every two people debating whether The Best Way is such-and-such... there are probably 20 people reading it and not chiming in because they don't have a firm opinion one way or another, and who will keep doing things the way they have been... and another 50 people who glance at the topic and think, "Meh, I have better things to do than read an argument about THAT."
(tl;dr? Summary: Remember that the noisiest extremists are never the majority.)
Well, when I dropped dairy I lost another ten pounds, and got down into a healthy weight range for my height and frame. With dairy I'm in the 150s, and without I'm deep in the 140s. I don't think it's caloric (I eat plenty, and plenty of fat, too). My best (un)educated guess is that dairy packs a double wallop for some people: Insulin + inflammation.
Here's a little bit of info on dairy and insulin: http://www.heartscanblog.org/2011/03/insulin-secretagogue.html
The inflammation guess is based on anecdotes and the hunch that anything so many people can't tolerate (and/or are allergic to) probably creates some inflammation, too. I don't have any handy dairy/inflammation links, but here's a world map of lactose intolerance, just to give you an idea of how many adults don't/can't do the dairy thing:
As far as people not helping you with "anything else" is concerned, what's included in that "else" besides weight loss? If it's anything to do with poor health, I can see why dairy would get the hairy eyeball. But if you're looking for help with, say, replacing your bike's inner tubes, then dairy's probably not the issue. :)
Strict Paleo is not the only way to lose weight.
Both times I was on Atkins, I had cream and I ate cheese like a fiend and lost 20lbs. It wasn't dairy that stopped me. I even ate small amounts of grain on Atkins too. Losing weight had more to do with keeping at or below 20 grams of carbs per day. Plain and simple.
I think Paleo is a healthier diet, than Atkins. But it seems like worrying about losing weight may be counterproductive to actually losing it.
Sleep and wake refreshed. Enjoy eating well and healthily. Work on, but don't stress about, improving your diet and lifestyle. Make changes slowly and deliberately so you can be aware of what is working. (or not working) Be happier where you are, even if it's not all the way there.
I think let's stop putting labels on everything...if dairy doesn't bother you, if you know that you can ingest it without issue and you feel good about it and can get it in it's most unprocessed state (don't I wish I were that lucky) then drink it, use it, and be happy. It just seems some people get so caught up on labels and trying to be gastronimcally perfect that a lot of life's joys are passed by. I do dairy, not every day, I enjoy it in my coffee (having some home made hot cocoa (cocoa, stevia and creme) right now..it's been a long dang day and it's comforting. I'll go through life trying to be as unprocessed as possible for the majority of time but there are some things in life that while may not be physically optimal, mentally they are :)
I follow the primal blueprint which allows for dairy, and I am losing weight just fine. I cook with quality grassfed butter, use cheese in my eggs and heavy cream in my coffee. Maybe you should try posting some of your questions in the Marksdailyapple.com forums. The people there are very friendly and open to the fact that people have different versions of paleo/primal.
The "dairy is designed to fatten up their young" argument is ridiculous.
We're a totally different species than them. We work differently. Try eating a bunch of leaves, bark, grass, etc. and see whether you end up growing to 10 tons like an elephant. It won't work; you're setup is different.
We eat plenty of stuff that's not designed for us. The fish you eat isn't designed for you; it's designed to fuel a fish or something. We take advantage of all kinds of stuff, even stuff that doesn't want to be taken advantage of. They're not designed for us; we're designed for them.
That's not even to mention that there's been massive artificial selection pressure on cows to produce milk that works for us. So it's not even not designed for us. It actually really is designed for us. Massive artificial selection, and a massive appetite for their milk, what's that add up to? Oh yeah, their milk is designed for us too! (Not just their young!)
I think there is a lot of obsession, simply because the studies are not clear, inconclusive, people have various experiences and it is the only (or seems to be) subject where paleos can get all militant and feel good about their camp/team. It's boring to preach to the choir... it feels good to be all radical and strong about something even among other paleos... it's not that much fun to be all almighty and nutritiously superior among your uneducated SADers at work... it's like adrenaline rush, people need more and more :)
You simply have to figure out by yourself if it's dairy that might be a problem. I cut out dairy completely for a month, and then reintroduced it. Even though I lost some weight both on dairy-free and with dairy, my stomach/guts felt happy and great, my skin broke out and I got bad acne, so I figured I have to go dairy-free except for once in a while heavy cream with my coffee, but rarely.
Try it, you won't find out here, people with eat each other alive first, before they get to some consensus on dairy :D
I think diary is obsessed on because it is relatively close to gluten in terms of being tough to break down. Essentially, the logic for avoiding wheat is mostly the same. Casein is specifically avoided in a lot of the alt-medicine type situations (ie Casein-free gluten-free is a relatively common part of quakery autism treatment).
Although, considering how people that are of Northern Europeon descent have an odd mutation that lets them process lactose, and that was overwhelmingly selected for over a relatively short time period....
It just seems difficult to call it a blanket bad thing, as it is a unique regional adaptation that is part of 85% of the people in the region (according to the lactose tolerance by population info I've seen).
In terms of weight loss, adherence to any diet that does not include processed sugar seems to work for most people up to a certain point. For most people it takes a long time to put on a considerable amount of weight; not exactly a shock that it will not come off overnight.