What? Health and beauty aren't synonymous? Why then do all those ladies magazines have subheadings promising the secrets of attaining both?

I realize that I've been brainwashed by this clever marketing to believe that health and beauty are one and the same.

So this is what I've been noticing along my "hardcore workout" journey. Now that I am 37,(and wanting to look 17) attempting to hit higher and higher levels of intensity have delivered fewer and fewer benefits. Going too hard, too frequently has made me look older and taken away some of the "cushion" if ya know what I mean.

Same goes for diet. It seems like the harder I try to control every last morsel, the worse the outcome.

Ironically my fervent attempts at looking good have, in my opinion, backfired terribly.

I read time and again here and on other sites that one should use the measure of "how do I look and feel" to gauge success. This may not be ideal as we strive to look a certain way that may not be attainable or we self medicate with unnatural levels of stress hormones released in response to "hardcore" efforts.

My new take is to eat and exercise in a way that supports my abilities to handle stress whatever form it takes. I no longer exercise to "burn off energy". What is energy anyway but life itself? Put that way, it seems stupid to exercise away life just to whittle the middle. Also my take is if food is not providing energy (life) then we best change up the plan and quick.

I'd rather be healthy and happy, than a muscle-model. If I can be both, that'd be cool - but I'll err on the side of happy.

It does bother me that obese people like to argue that they're perfectly healthy; when a blood and adrenal panel can show otherwise. Unhealthy is not beautiful; it's dangerous.

Well I am 5'2" and 170ish pounds. I have been this heavy (plus or minus 10ish lbs) for a while. I still have managed to acquire two boyfriends, a girlfriend and a playmate. I thus conclude that my weight does not seem to have a significant bearing on my attractiveness.

On the other hand my knees and ankles hurt and I would like to do things that would be easier if I was more muscular. And the clothing I really like at thrift stores mostly seems to be a few sizes smaller. So I would like to lose some weight once I finish my current project.

I don't think I am willing to go VLC to do it though. My sweeties might not care if I am squishy, but they do not like me bitchy. And I don't like my myself much either.

The answer for me has always been beauty before health...and I have done/paid/tried many things to achieve that end. And yes, I would like to have been more confident in my younger years. But it is what it is and I tend to be a perfectionist and am learning to temper that part of my personality in favor of mental health.

What is interesting in my case is that I accidentally found paleo when I was 38 years old and looking for another "answer" to save me from slipping back down into an eating disorder again. Following paleo was only about beauty not health. Then I started doing CrossFit this year. It is the ONLY thing that has broken my obsession with the scale, and for the first time in my life I have realized that food is not evil because such tough exercise forces me to eat sensibly. I am not bothered that I have not been able to lose ten pounds, and I was able to resist turning to starvation so I could weigh that magic number yesterday when I turned 40 :)

I am cautiously optimistic that the combo of paleo/crossfit has switched me to the "health" end of the spectrum.

Here goes: I'm 5'2", 110 and I've been this way for years except when I went down to 98 lbs during a depression. At 36 I think feeling good is way more important to me than looking good. Having said that, feeling good actually makes me more appealing (or it could be the nice golden tan of summer). In any case, I dig on that endorphin jolt. I also dig on waking up feeling like I can conquer the world.

Paleo has led me to more detailed self-tracking and a greater awareness of the small things that impact my life in big ways. What I'm doing now and have done for 8 months has been improving my mental state more than my body. Perhaps it is my age and my acceptance that I have evidence of life on my face (wrinkles) but I'm more accepting of myself as a whole than just my amazing outward appearance.

So yes, beauty and health has blurred. I was gorgeous at 21 but very unhealthy. I'm attractive at 36 and healthy. In all these months, I've come to accept that body fat is not a number I care to track. Hey, I shop for clothes in the kid's section so I'm a healthy weight and I save a few bucks. Thanks Paleo gods!

Sidebar: In conducting an experiment with 30+ women from this forum, I see more women interested in curing health-related issues than weight. Most have said that weight is only a factor in that it has given them poor health. That right there says a lot about the intellect and confidence derived from eating for health and not for weight loss. Woot and a hip bump!

i think part of it is cultural. i personally like my women with a disproportionate waist/hip ratio :-). on a serious note, though i don't go back to hunter-gatherer's as a reference for all things, when it comes to how females look, they don't seem to be ripped up and looking like prime candidates for amenorrhea. they look strong and able to survive a good period of time if food weren't plentiful.

as far as guys go, anywhere from high singles to mid-teens seems appropriate- depending on what your goals are. i don't begrudge anyone wanting to look like the cover of a men's health mag. i just try to keep in mind that from an evolutionary standpoint, collectively, our genes just want us to live long enough to procreate by any means necessary:-). luckily that usually coincides with looking great naked.

Tofu-belly, dairy-swollen, peanut-burping, legume-pregnant, sugar-icky, constipated, runny-sniffled, pale-discolored, medicated, shameful-loathing, angry-angry gluten monster...

VS

Empty-belly, dancing-silly, grassfed-high time, seratonin, body-freedom, open-hearted, Lectin-smashing, out-loud-laughing, doctor-farewelled, deepdeep-breathing, in the moment, fertile-yummy, jolly, jocund me.

Being obese is unhealthy. There is no exception. But carrying a few extra pounds in non-visceral fat is not going to be a health problem in pretty much anybody and I'd say it's probably healhtier to do that than it is to be ultra skinny and possibly malnourished.

Gilliebean makes a great point about how fear of offending someone can affect a person's decision (or lack of decision) to do anything about their health challenges and/or weight.

I think the human nature to respond incorrectly to positive criticism unfortunately causes a cascade effect. The person who wants to help someone almost never will actually say anything for fear of offending the very person they want to help. It's quite sad really. If people were able to think with a clear mind, and proper perspective, they would not allow their own hang ups to block themselves from receiving well intended advice. But unasked for advice is usually unwanted advice as well, right? Such a shame.

So what do I suggest. Judge someone? No. Definitely no. Nobody likes to be judged. We are all jacked up in our own way, are we not? You surely don't want to go around making people believe that you are judgemental against their weight or whatever else. If we all want some level of grace regarding judgement, wouldn't it follow that extending that same grace to everyone makes perfect sense then?

But it sure would be nice if people could just hear the truth (or any opinion really, even if it may not be "the truth") and receive it from a neutral or 3rd party point of view, willing to consider the possibility that the person telling them the hard stuff might actually be right! Imagine that!

Now about the idea that Thomas is talking about with people viewing 'skinny' as healthy (especially women). I have to say that I am in FULL agreement with Thomas about the curvy aspect of women. Women are supposed to be curvy. That's one of the most attractive features of a woman's body. Is it really that hard to believe that guys like big butts? Why do you think that song is so popular? Why do you think the entire world is obsessed with the derriere of women? (yes I am saying 'entire' because it is basically true.). Why do you think a passerby would yell what they yelled at akd? But then, in some kind of demented twist of reality, girls see these stick figure models on the runway or in a magazine and think that's "beauty". Well, it can be in some cases, but many of those 'beauties' are terribly unhealthy and far too thin, sacrificing health for perceived 'beauty'.

In fact, even some of the pics I observed on leangains.com showed some guys to be very very thin and lean, with muscles and veins viewable on every square inch of the body. I personally prefer the more 'filled in' look, even on myself. I just make sure I stay as fit as my body will allow me to. One thing I'm not quite sure about is the squats and deadlifts comment. Those are two pillars of workout routines. I do them both. Does this cause some kind of inflammation? I don't know anything about that.

Anyway... some poignant thoughts from you on this one Thomas.

Thanks!

I've been paleo for 2 months now and have seen many benefits, one of which was weight loss. granted, I started at 5'3'', 120lbs and am now probably about 115, so nothing too drastic, but it's noticeable (to me) and I feel good about it. the problem comes in when I start to have thoughts like I did the other day that maybe I can get down to the weight I was when I had an eating disorder. yeah, that's disturbing. right now I'm trying to focus on my main goal which is to achieve those ever elusive toned arms, but I definitely need to police myself to make sure that paleo doesn't become some kind of gateway to obsessive, disordered eating. btw, I feel wonderful eating this way, so I'm not saying that through paleo I am prizing looks over health, but that the benefits can have this unexpected consequence.

While I have reservations about the book, I would recommend Catherine Shanahan's Deep Nutrition, as she seems to believe that health and beauty are indeed the same. I believe too that WAPF has some ideas along these lines.

For my part, I feel better in everything I do now that I've lost the 13 pounds that have been plaguing me for more than 5 years: yoga, running, swimming, hiking. Hell, just standing in line at the grocery store feels better! My confidence is way up and I think that counts for a lot, not to mention libido.

For me, it's all about quality of life and self-sufficiency. Okay, okay...I'm a vain mofo too. But the fact that health and beauty go hand-in-hand is nice. I posted about this today on my blog with regards to suntanning.

well you said it, it's about making the decision consciously. Someone asked me the question "do you want to be right or do you want to be happy" and you know what? Sometimes I just want to be right! But at least I am choosing and aware of the costs.

I used to be a trainer at a gym where I had to "work the floor" a few hours a week. To pass my time I would ask different guys about girls' bodies and vice versa and everyone seemed to like a meatier woman and women seemed to not be so crazy about those 8 pack abs favoring a more athletic look on a man BUT b/c of programming, there is the trophy wife that has to be skinny with big fake breasts, at least here in Miami. So those extreme bodies are like what the rings on one of those African women's necks are, cultural relativity.

I like googling old fashioned actors bodies like Marlon Brando and Paul Newman, etc. Their bodies were so reasonable!! Same with the women. Everyone recounts the Marilyn Monroe example, how voluptuous she was. I think a good rule of thumb is if you look nice in your clothes, you are fine.

Maybe your DL and squats aren't inflaming you after all? I imagine just walking next to a street with a lot of traffic is enough to inflame a person or being at a tedious job, or god knows what else?! If working out makes a person happy fine, if it's compulsive and unsustainable that's a whole other issue where a person needs to ask themselves why and to what end?

Great post!

I think there can be, and needs to be a balance. Of course, one must realize that super defined, washboard abs are not, and therefore do not, look healthy. This is also why I dont weigh myself since that is not a very accurate measure of health or fitness. I eat right and exercise both to look better and to feel better. Luckily, if done smartly, all of this goes hand in hand. If I eat the right things to feel better I lose weight, my clothes fit better, I have a flatter tummy and more defined arms and legs and damn I look good. If I eat right to look better, I lose weight, have more energy, sleep better, dont feel bloated, and damn I feel good. So for me it works either way and I think my aim is combination of overall health and vanity, and I am ok with that. I think realistic goals are the most important part.

I am a woman and for me, beauty is an expression of connection to my essence and life force. It is being in flow and grace. Beauty is radiance, ineffable and unguarded. This is different than the product of beauty which we all know so well and are more comfortable arguing about. Beauty is internal and is supported by opening, relaxing, loving, playing and living in harmony with the flow of life. Beauty is light magnified and amplified through the structure of the body. I am more able to access and express beauty when my diet is clean. I am also more able to access and express my beauty when I am in a loving relationship, when I am able to be touched and touch others, when I am having sex. In short, times when I am feeling my most beautiful, there is little thought of my size or shape. I am conscious of my presence and how much space I am giving it to shine. I enjoy following this reference point regarding my physicality. When I start thinking about size and weight and the 'product' of beauty I feel the constriction come upon me and shit gets hard. Comparison, competition, rigidity and external reference points make me crazy and take me out of connection to that sexy belly fire and open hearted freedom. I don't see that way of being as attractive or magnetic and I don't think men do either. If any men want to weigh in on this, I would love and welcome your comments.

Looking good is important to me, but I think I look pretty great. 8)

I will admit that my initial plunge with Paleo was mostly because of looks, but I have different goals now.

I'm the size I want to be (clothing-wise), but I want to add more definition to my muscles. I have no idea what my bf% is, but I do know I used to be a lot stronger than I am now and I miss that.

I remember 2 moves ago (maybe 4 years), I could lift half a sleeper couch without straining (I have no idea how much that weighs or how that compares to weight-room numbers, but I was impressed with myself!). The last move we made (1 year ago), I was straining with just a bookshelf. Now that's just ridiculous!

My current goals are definitely more focused on health/strength than on looks.

Hmm, isn't there a third option? "Feeling good" I'd call it. I've never fit into the whole "female beauty" thing so I gave that up long, long ago. On the other hand, I've never lost weight or exercised to "live long" or any of that stuff. Oh, once after a back injury and long period of being sedentary, I took up walking to help heal the back and that lowered my cholesterol, which I thought was helpful.

But. . . I "feel good" at a certain weight -- I feel good about myself and my body. I feel good in my body. And that has been my major motivator. And now that Paleo allows me to be at my "perfect" weight effortlessly, I am now interested in getting stronger both functionally and visually. Maybe that's a form of "beauty"? That was the motivation for losing weight.

But I didn't go Paleo to lose weight. I went Paleo for health reasons. I felt like crap and was finally tired of it and saw through Paleo and actual possibility of not having to put up with it anymore. Seeing that possibility made a huge difference. And, I'm happy to say it has worked at least 80% so far, after only 5 months or so.

Ok, I want to talk about this word "natural" for a moment. Many of you seem to be saying that we will find "healthy" to be beautiful. That is to say that our "natural" response is to see "healthy" as beautiful. Now I am waiting for gone2croatan to come and introduce Foucault in this discussion (which would be entirely appropriate on this subject) but I have something to say on this.

Are you sure that your aesthetic response is completely determined by "nature"? Do you not think that what you think is a natural response is at least in part conditioned by the media or other societal forces? Do you think that those societal forces are always guided by "nature"? As I said, growing up the image of beauty that formed my aesthetic appreciation was a blonde woman, with long hair, demure, preferably big boobs, etc. etc. Was that natural? Did nature only make that type of woman as a model of beauty?

No, of course not. So be careful with the use of the words "nature", "natural". You can eat Paleo and throw spears for all I care, but your "nature" is conditioned in large part by other factors. You can choose to be a slave to those forces or you can choose to free yourself from them. It's up to you.

It's a delicate balance. My theory is that if you eat primal, move your body, and feel good, you're going to end up looking good. For 95% of us that does not mean a BMI in the teens (for women), single-digit body fat (for men), or a rippling six-pack (for either). If you have to starve or overeat to the detriment of your daily well-being, or cut out many tasty and pleasurable foods, or overtrain, or stress and obsess, to try to get those things; then you are compromising your health, and it's not worth it.

I for one don't find very low body fat appealing. It looks harsh, unnatural, and unhealthy. And it's the men in the primal community who seem to be hyper-focused on cutting their body fat down to ridiculously low levels. I don't usually say anything to them but I will vent here; when your bodyfat is too low it looks gross. Seeing the outline of every muscle with veins popping makes me think of dissecting cadavers. Also I am not a fan of gigantic bulging muscles, but that might mostly be me. I like a nice mid-weight, normal-looking, leanish guy. Pro soccer players look amazing.

Most women on PH, IME, just want to be healthy, slim and normal-looking with a nice balance between strength and curves. Although we do get a post here or there by women who appear to want to have no 'pinchable' subcutaneous fat at all. I am the first to tell them I don't think that's healthy, achievable, or even attractive.

Personally I am naturally skinny and fairly lean (even after much hard work, and weight gain thanks to a paleo diet), and even have defined abs for a woman... I seem to have plenty of admirers, and have had no complaints. Although that might be because even though I am around the same size as a runway model and flat-chested, I manage to have plenty of 'back'.

What does simulacrum mean?

Thomas......the more healthy you the better you look......and the higher your self esteem rises.