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Once a day, once a week, once a month, once a year?

At what level do you think the diet becomes cariogenic long term? My main goal is to not have to visit a dental office ever again.

HG seem to do well on different frequencies of honey and other sugars but it is probably max once a day probably less; I assume.

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as long as you regularly clean your teeth very well (brush and floss, basic stuff) i believe you can eat carbohydrates without fear. Paleo food i mean of course. So for an actual "level" you ask about I would say the less the better but that you can indeed eat a ton of paleo carbs with no fear. Be paleo strict style and clean your teeth. – ben61820 Jul 3 2011 at 13:01
I'm not talking about all carbs just sweet sugars. Like a HG might eat pounds of honey once a year type of deal. I don't think non-sweet carbs are associated with tooth decay based on epidemiological studies. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 14:06
i didn't even know cariogenic was a word. nice. – ben61820 Jul 3 2011 at 15:17

7 Answers

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Some people think that tooth decay has more to do with phytic acid and lectin consumption than sugar consumption. I'd be more concerned with limiting grains and nuts for dental health. #wapf

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 That would make sense. I've found eating chocolate on occasion doesn't cause furry teeth, but grains do (my teeth are also a lot whiter since cutting grains too :-) – Efaitch Jul 3 2011 at 8:35
It's true to a certain extent. I personally don't eat phytic acid or lectins. But sugar still does cause tooth decay/sensitivity if eaten too much in my experience and research. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 14:04
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I think we're forgetting the biggest factor which is whether you have the minerals and vitamins to actually keep teeth well mineralized. I ate grains and processed food for years and never had a cavity but I'm a lover of Jewish/Russian food so we always had liverwurst, chopped liver, bone in sardines, Canned cod liver in its own oil, caviar, and liver around the house. We also had tortilla chips, bread, mac n'cheese, frozen tv dinners and ice cream. I never got a cavity until very recently after my pregnancy which I think was due to him sucking all the minerals out of my body and severe morning sickness making me unable to enjoy the rich foods I loved pre-pregnancy for the first 4 months. I personally think teeth can take a whole lot of abuse when you're eating a nutrient rich diet. Not that you should eat a lot of honey, grains or anything... It's really not good for you but lets not forget what the real culprit is when it comes to tooth health.

That said, Someone on here recommended Dr. Ellie Phillips protocol for remineralizing teeth and I haven't had it confirmed by xray but it looks like my cariers have halted their progress and I'm waking up with a much less acidic taste in my mouth with the xylitol rinses. I think adding in the vitamin K and cod liver oil helps too.

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Yea I think nutrients are very important, especially A,D,K,calcium, phosphorous, and protein, xylitol is a blessing too, sounds like our regimens are pretty similar. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 17:23
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If you eat a highly nutritious diet with relatively few anti-nutrients, and keep your teeth clean in between 'doses' of sugars (I have also read a lot of data that suggests that frequency of sugar intake is a big factor in tooth decay - and that sugary liquids are much, much worse than solids), for plenty of people consumption of sugars doesn't matter much.

YMMV according to the natural hardness and quality of your teeth; I have hard, healthy teeth, it's probably both genetic (my parents have great teeth too, although my middle sister has awful ones) and because my mom ate well before and when pregnant with me and fed me pretty well as kids. I almost never go to the dentist, but did a few months ago for the first time in 8 years, just to see what's up and get a little tartar I had noticed removed. My teeth are doing great.

Starches make my mouth feel more 'dirty' than straight sugar, and give me an acidic taste in my mouth...

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Good point on YMMV. Teeth are one of the biggest indicators of mom's diet and genes. Interesting anecdote on starches vs sugar. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 17:26
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Genetics and the levels of enzymes your body produce are also factors for a healthy mouth - if you're in good shape now you should be fine going forward. I think just simply: Brush 2-3 times a day but kind of leave it at that - over brushing can damage the enamel and harm your gums. (I brush after each meal and there are carbs involved in all of them.) Floss or use soft picks daily. Swish your mouth out really good with water after meals if you can. For sure anything sugary is going to increase the production of evi bacteria, just be aware of what you're eating and drinking, scrub/swish afterwards if you need to. Celery, cheese, kiwi, and green tea will help keep your mouth healthy and those cavities away. Good luck!

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Interesting - I'd heard about green tea, cheese and celery, but kiwi? It seems odd to me that an acidic and rather sugary fruit would have anti-cariogenic properties. Do you have any sources on that? – Simibee Jul 3 2011 at 22:20
Hey @Simibee - Kiwi can be used to keep a mouth healthy due to their insane levels of vitamin c. If c levels are low the collagen network in gums have the potential to break down, making them more susceptible to gum disease. You're right, they're not non-cariogenic, but are in a low cariogenicity category, with berries, but their c level makes them valuable compared to the others. I lived in a poor country for a year and needed dental work when I got back. My list was recommended as maintenance by my dentist who knew I didn't have much $$ at the time. Mouth was in good shape within the year. – jesuisjuba - paleorepublic.com Jul 4 2011 at 2:35
Thanks for explaining that. – Simibee Jul 4 2011 at 14:05
Sure! Growing up in a small town in a hippy community always meant some alterna ideas for health. I've known my dentist my whole life, only three fingers on one hand as he was also a carpenter :) so he was always handy and close by. I also have logged in all treatments and remedies over the years that worked or didn't, both in the states but especially out of the country health treatments, to have as a reference. – jesuisjuba - paleorepublic.com Jul 4 2011 at 16:18
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 PS: Yes, I'm a big nerd :) – jesuisjuba - paleorepublic.com Jul 4 2011 at 16:30
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Yea you need to worry about total dosage. Do you already completely avoid grains, legumes and dairy except for maybe butter, green beans, etc.?

Limit your fruit consumption. And stick to under 100 grams of carbs a day.

This is my simple advice. Does anyone have anything that trumps my thoughts?

P.S. I have a permanent retainer and I want to throw it in the ocean...

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Yea I don't eat grains/legumes. I don't think dairy is implicated in tooth decay and research shows it is beneficial. I don't think starches cause tooth decay and research shows they don't. I'm more interested in real science and anecdotes like Weston A Price, Mellanby, HG habits, etc. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 3:15
@cliff: Ever heard of baby bottle tooth decay? This can also occur with nursing babies. Basic deal = sugar acids in milk covering teeth for long periods of time, as when baby takes bottle to bed. So, if you eat dairy, drink milk, especially b4 bedtime, brush your teeth! – Atkins-witha-loincloth Jul 3 2011 at 4:59
Can I just clarify that breastfeeding does not cause dental decay. It is bottlefeedibg that is the problem. Not the type of milk per se, but the way the milk is delivered. A baby's Tongue milks the breast in such a way that breastmilk is delivered to the back of the mouth. And, grains definitely cause me more problems than refined sugar - not starches, just grains! – Efaitch Jul 3 2011 at 8:32
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 the arbitrary number of 100g of carbs per day is nonsense, no offense. Limiting fruit, limited liquid carbohydrate, cleaning your teeth regularly, understanding that any carbohydrate if left on your teeth will more than any other edible item lead to bacteria growth; these are the important things i would think. Do not extrapolate from this that you should limit your carbohydrate-intake to some number. – ben61820 Jul 3 2011 at 12:58
I've read that human milk is more cariogenic because it has more lactose. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 14:00
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If your worried about tooth decay, it is the frequency of sugar & fermentable carbs that will increase your risk. Due to the fact that repeated exposure doesn't allow your mouth to recover from the acidic state. (that is based on the Stephan Curve- Dental School basics) So have your 'sugar' within a 20 minute time frame. The amount of plaque on your teeth also is a factor. As far as never visiting the dentist again, Please know that teeth have anatomical concavities. So, no matter how good you brush & floss, you cannot remove all of the plaque. You will eventually develop tarter. That eventually causes inflammation and gum disease.

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Interesting about the tartar comment. I don't seem to get that. I've been doing xylitol lately and it seems like I barely even have any plaque anymore. And when I do get plaque/tartar buildup it seems to brush away super easy. I can see maybe if someone's teeth are shaped weird. I never needed braces and so far I've had one wisdom teeth grow in fine, 3 more to go. What about the skeletons they find of HG with perfect teeth, did they die young and never had a chance to get gum disease? – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 13:59
I don't get tartar either, and plaque is very light. I got my teeth cleaned for the first time in over 10 years recently (seriously!) and still had no tartar, and no gum disease. I love both wood and plastic toothpics/brushpics and the inter-space brushes (but those are expensive). But I think I developed this habit out of self-defense - my teeth are misaligned (jaw too small to hold the honking big teeth I got) and any bit of food between them is annoying because it actually causes a change in the feeling of alignment and it's distracting until I get it cleared. – Tikivana Jul 3 2011 at 21:09
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Not frequency but total dosage will make the poison

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Not according to dental science. Their research shows frequency is significant while total dosage of sugar is insignificant. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 3:11
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 Interesting, Cliff. Do you have a link to this research? – Glenn Jul 3 2011 at 4:40
@cliff and Glenn: Both are right. From a dental perspective, frequency is very important, as in it is much better to eat one big glob of sugary candy than to string out that glob with grazing over several hours. With teeth the repeated exposures are far worse than one, single, "massive" one. However, I don't think they would say total dosage is insignificant over, say, a year's period of time. – Atkins-witha-loincloth Jul 3 2011 at 4:55
@mem yea a good example is a HG eating 5lbs of honey one day out of the year vs someone reenacting HG who eats 5lbs of honey over a year eating 1 teaspoon a couple times a day. The dosage is the same over a year but the caries should be much much higher in the 2nd person. – cliff Jul 3 2011 at 14:14
if i eat 1/8 gram of sugar every 12 minutes it doesnt matter but if i ate 50 grams at one sitting that is significantly more even tho its not frequent so why the downvote when my logic is sound? – The hacker formerly knownasron Aug 1 2011 at 20:54

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