Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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I just found out two days ago, via MRI, that I have a bulging/herniated L4/L5 disc. Here's a link to one of the many pictures from the MRI: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6196/6050044492_e9cece6a76_z.jpg

My back has been a mess for the last few years, but really started getting bad about 5 weeks ago. Along with really bad pain, the bulge is impinging on nerves, causing sciatica. At times, I am completely hobbled, having a tough time walking or standing. The only relief I find is lying on my back with a few pillows under my knees.

I've been 95% paleo for the past 8 months, having lost 45 lbs in the process. I'm a former college athlete and am a very active person. To make this short, I'll just say I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to proper training techniques. Along with losing the weight, I've become a lot stronger, focusing a lot on my core strength, doing yoga and stretching, along with various other activities. The extra weight I had put on since college was mainly due to battling gout attacks in all major joints in my body. I have now conquered gout, and then this happens with my back. It's quite depressing knowing I'm once again hobbled with something quite serious.

I know that eating paleo will keep the inflammation down in my body. My last blood test was taken the other day when I had to go to the ER (yes, it got that bad) for my back. Everything looked perfect, including the inflammation/infection indicators.

I'm just wondering if there is anything else I can do Paleo-wise to help. The beef I eat is grass-fed and I take my Carlsons fish oil every day. I will start PT once the pain subsides. Right now it would be impossible to do any type of PT or stretching because of the pain and numbness. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! This sucks....

P.S. One thing I'm keenly aware of is that if I did live during the time of Grok, natural selection would have taken me out long ago!

flag	asked Aug 18 2011 at 7:52 Nate 791●3●9

Thank you so much for asking this. I ended up with a microdiscectomy 3 months post-partum after enduring multiple ER trips and having to stop nursing my son, so that I could take serious drugs for pain management. I am now starting to have symptoms again (almost 3 yrs later) and never even thought that I could positively affect this particular problem with diet and natural supplements! Chiro did help me out a ton and kept most of the pain away while I was preg with my 2nd. Before going paleo I baked him a huge tray of cookies.... might have to find some new recipies for him! – HamHock Aug 18 2011 at 21:34

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You're welcome. It has made me think more about my diet and what I can do to further reduce inflammation in my body. I'm still trying to get my latest blood results from the hospital. They told me everything was fine, but I know they weren't looking at things from a Paleo perspective. Look up some paleo banana bread recipes using coconut flour. You can tweak them for your tastes and preferences and they are all really good! – Nate Aug 19 2011 at 19:08

Jesse · Answer 1 · 2011-08-18 09:54:16Z UTC

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I'm a chiropractor that specializes in disc cases. Send me your town and I will try to find referral for you.

answered Aug 18 2011 at 9:54

Jesse
113●3

	The disc bulge is not that bad on that particular view. The rest of the discs are well maintained as well. You appear to have a transitional segment at your 5th lumbar, which is not necessarily a problem but I find a higher proportion of issued in peole that have them. – Jesse Aug 18 2011 at 10:00
	Thank you for the reply, Jesse. I'm and American living in Germany near the town of Amberg in Bavaria. I'm a photographer/artist and spend a lot of time at the computer. When I'm not on the computer, I'm usually schlepping around a lot of camera gear and doing a lot of hiking/walking/skiing. My first thought was that the bulge didn't look all that bad either, but it is causing quite a bit of pain and hindering my mobility. I'm pretty familiar with pain, having lived for 15 years with horrendous gout attacks and other maladies. Although not as bad as gout, this pain is right up there. – Nate Aug 18 2011 at 10:31
	Sorry for the typos. I can't type on my phone. – Jesse Aug 18 2011 at 10:52
	Nate, that looks out there. Here is where I get most of my out of town referrals: gonstead.com. There are a couple of docs there that can likely help quite a bit but they are several hours away. Check this post of a similar case from our blog. fransonchiropractic.com/blog/2011/04/14/… – Jesse Aug 18 2011 at 11:24
	Thanks for looking for me. I'll start checking around myself. Nice site and nice blog. I'm going to read through that a lot more. Here's one more view of my back - farm7.static.flickr.com/6205/… I had x-rays taken a few weeks ago and the doc said I had some slight Scoliosis. This picture is from the MRI taken this last Tuesday. Thanks again. – Nate Aug 18 2011 at 11:59

The Quilt · Answer 2 · 2011-08-18 12:38:11Z UTC

You have DDD and 60% disc height collapse and without seeing the remaining cuts the ligament may or may not be torn. It does not appear to be a frank herniation. I see no protruding disc into the canal or the cal sac.....but it is only one cut of the MRI. That all being said.....I bet your hs crp is up vit d is down with DHEA and pregnenolone down and bet your HDL is lower than you think. You need to go the conservative route gets labs done and proceed with caution. Zero problems with you doing chiro care but if you get no relief in three four months then you will need to consider posterior ligament taxis and increasing your foramina height.....but you need full conservative treatment first. I doubt your gut is as good as you think with a disc like that.

I am a spine surgeon who sees this fifteen times a day. Don't blow it off......but your loss of height tells me this has been going on 7~10 years

curly16 · Answer 3 · 2011-08-18 12:42:19Z UTC

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Please make sure you strengthen your Transverse abs (TA). most people have weak TA and glut medius. Therefore the brunt of the weight is beared on the lumbar spine (as it should) though with incorrect form. Pelvic tilts in the supine position helps and "flattening" your back to ther ground. Bracing your self as if someone "punched you in the gut" is what contracting your TA feels like.

Good luck!

answered Aug 18 2011 at 12:42

curly16
509●1●7

Thanks, KeriLyn. I was working on strengthening my abs, and they are probably as strong now as they've ever been. I was doing a lot of core exercises, and putting those in to practice in the real world all of the time - skiing, kayaking, climbing, my biking, etc. I've got a feeling that I have simply abused my body for far too long! – Nate Aug 18 2011 at 18:14

Cory151 · Answer 4 · 2011-08-18 15:30:38Z UTC

Ive been through all this same stuff you are talking about Ive even had an operation (microdiscectomy) as well as Calcium, K2, Human Growth Hormone (10months straight), 9 hours a stretching a week with one of the best trainers in professional sports, and maintaining 25 Hydroxy vitamin D levels just above 50 and adapting a Paleo diet (which caused a loss of 34 lbs in 3 months) have done little or nothing to improve disc issues.

I dont buy the whole weak abdominal muscles theory either as I am able to do more abdominal excersices, as well as holding various plank positions for much longer than anybody I know.

Here are some studies Ive found in my research:

This one discusses Thunder God Vine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21789526

This one discusses antibiotics, which is an angle i would have never though of:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18718972

Here is one using Resveratrol:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19011540

Anybody with anything to add please do.

Jesse · Answer 5 · 2011-08-20 14:05:19Z UTC

Nate, This type of presentation typically starts as a sacroiliac joint problem. When the bottom disc in the spine (for you the fourth lumbar disc) is worn while the others are not, it indicates poor sacroiliac joint alignment. This results in torque when you walk or run.

This is how the one disc goes bad while the others around it are actually in very good condition. Any blood level values, or foods for that matter, would have affected all of them equally. Your MRI shows a very specific pattern of breakdown.

This problem is old, several years at least. Over time the bottom movable disc wears out. Again, I would echo the quilt, all the MRIs coming in have similar patterns of disc wear. 4th and/or 5th lumbar disc problems, then the older ones get worse from there.

I have seen many people crawl or be carried into our office two weeks after their trip to the ER. Disc problems and all they can still get great results if they work at it. You have got a lot of good structure to work with, even if it doesn't feel like it. Quilt's right, though, these get worse over time if unaddressed. Even when some of the symptoms reside with the acute inflammation, the mechanics will not get better on their own.

Stu · Answer 6 · 2011-08-18 16:23:06Z UTC

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Specifically what motions/activities cause the majority of your pain? Does it hurt more to flex forward, extend etc? Do youIf you can tell me that there are some pretty simple exercises that you can perform that can help with pain relief. These are more light stretches/mobility exercises rather than strengthening.

I am a certified athletic trainer, and work with a lot of athletes and sports injuries. If you find a good PT or physio as it would be in Germany. They should keep in mind your pain level and treat you accordingly. But if you are in too much pain to even do simple stretches. I would start by doing some hot and cold treatments if you have the capability. Examples could be ice pack, heat pack. If you don't have those, try taking a hot bath etc. That will help with some basic pain relief and help relax some of the muscles, and may allow you to do some light exercises.

answered Aug 18 2011 at 16:23

Stu
138●6

	Mine kills just sitting, usually takes me some time to straighten up when getting out of a car or sitting in a chair. – Cory151 Aug 18 2011 at 16:48
	Thanks, Stu. My back hurts the worst when I'm standing in one place or just limping around for more than a minute or two. I am able to flex forward and touch my toes without too much of a problem, but coming back up is very hard and very painful. The only position that is truly comfortable is while I'm lying on my back with pillows under my knees and calves. Just sitting here typing this is very painful and I find myself shifting around every minute or two. Tomorrow I'm' going to visit a Physio just to get a dialogue started and see where that takes me. – Nate Aug 18 2011 at 18:23
	Nate: For starters, while you are lying on your back, try pulling one knee to your chest and hold it there for about 10 sec, then let it slowly down. Repeat with the other knee, then do the same thing with both legs. Lift the legs up slowly, and let them back down slowly. If you have a long towel or rope that you can use to pull your leg towards you use that. This is so the exercise can remain passive, and keep your hip flexors from doing any work. You can cycle through those are many times as you want. Though stop if you feel discomfort. TBC... – Stu Aug 18 2011 at 21:09
	Another thing you can try is some neural glides. While your laying on your back, prop one leg up against the wall. Keep your other knee flexed. Make sure that the leg which is on the wall is straight, and try pumping your ankle forward and back like pressing on a gas pedal. Concentrate on while your pulling your foot towards, pull it just to the point where you feel a light stretch then relax. Only do this maybe 10-20 reps. Stop if you feel any pain, discomfort, numbness or tingling. When you see the physio tommorow, he'll be able to do a full assessment, and give you more to do. – Stu Aug 18 2011 at 21:16
	Cory: I would need more info on specific movements that hurt. Do you have pain while your sitting? Or only while trying to stand? I would suggest trying to stretch your hip flexors, and quads. Try not to arch your back while your doing those stretches. – Stu Aug 18 2011 at 21:18

Paul · Answer 7 · 2012-04-20 20:26:11Z UTC

Nate, Sorry to hear you having this trouble with your spine. I have the same problem at L4/5 and a slight bulge at L5/S1. I have had 2 microdisectomys at the L4/5 level and am still having the sciatica pain and low back pain. I have tried everything from chiro to decompression therapy to PT to injections with no real lasting relief. I'm kinda over going to people that charge me a ton of money for not helping my situation. I recently went to a different neurosurgeon and looked at my MRI with him, clearly showing the continued re-herniation after the 2nd surgery. He said "it looks good" and is not convinced that is the source of my pain MRI Image . I'm a 28 year old and in pretty good shape I'm kinda over going to people that charge me a ton of money for not helping my situation. I am in the same boat as you Nate, I am looking for some relief. I wonder why that surgeons don't reinforce the disc to promote strength while healing after a surgery. A dissolving suture would work. Good luck. I think I will try the Resveratrol.

AG · Answer 8 · 2012-04-20 23:34:28Z UTC

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While you wait for chiro or PT, you may want to read up on the subject. Read anything by "Stuart McGill" or "Craig Liebenson" - leaders in the field of back care/injuries.

answered Apr 20 2012 at 23:34

AG
167●2

PaleoOBGyn · Answer 9 · 2012-08-20 23:02:26Z UTC

Here I am with a L5/S1 disc herniation and major S1 nerve root impingement and it's hard for me to swallow how I lost my mobility in a matter of days. For those of you who've had the Microdiscectomy are any of you happy with that surgery's results?

Ike · Answer 10 · 2013-01-30 19:54:55Z UTC

Got here via web search on my condition, read the posts and thought I'd share what has worked for me.

My diagnosis is:

~ L4-5: Concentric Disc bulging with a moderate sized superimposed left paracentral disc protrusion.

~ L5-S1: The L5 vertebra is transitional, showing a transverse process on the left and partial sacralization on the right.

I've tried traditional physiotherapy, chiropractics, acupuncture, yoga\stretching and various Mackenzie method stretches. They all helped to varying degrees. But, the one thing that made a world of difference for me was aqua therapy and swimming. A woman whose Son plays on my kid's hockey team is a physiotherapist from Italy. She does most of her work in a pool. I did six 1 hour sessions with her and the nerve pain that had been running down my leg for 3 months completely subsided in under 3 weeks. Now, I swim lengths 3 or 4 evenings per week for 30 minutes and then stretch and do the exercises she showed me in the shallow pool. I finish by putting one floatie noodle under my neck and one under my knees and then just float for 5 to 10 minutes, completely relaxing the back. So, if there is someone in your area who offers aqua therapy, I would give it a shot. Worked really well for me.

505Rafter · Answer 11 · 2013-01-30 22:16:25Z UTC

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I had low back pain problems this summer and went to a Chiro. I was diagnose with l5-s1 herniated disk. I was told to do cat/cow exercises to strengthen my tranverse abdominals and side planks to strengthen my quadratus lumborum. They also taught me an exercise they called "Foundation" I did these exercises for a few weeks and was feeling great. I was curious about this exercise and started googling which brought me to Foundation Training. Too much sitting had made my glutes and hamstrings become pretty much dormant adding to my posture problems. I spent the last year trying to strengthen them but just hurt myself more doing deadlifts and squats wrong. I have been doing these exercises for 3 months and feel muscles in my legs working I never felt before. There are some videos on the website. The Founder is the exercise my Chiro gave me. Give it a try and see how it feels for you.

answered Jan 30 at 22:16

505Rafter
11●1

	Thanks, Rafter. One thing I have been able to do is to keep my core strength up. I don't do any weights, but do do yoga and stretch when I can. I also do very slow, deliberate pull ups and pushups, which have really helped keep me strong and stable. The one problem I do have, which isn't really a problem at all, is that people look at me and have a hard time believing the pain I live with. I have to attribute most of this to eating strict Paleo, and this site had a lot to do with that. I really am thankful for this. I don't know where I'd be right now otherwise. Thank you for the reply. – Nate Feb 2 at 14:38
	My best to you and your back. I'm glad that you have found something that works for you. – Nate Feb 2 at 14:39
	Foundation training is all about core. Everything attached to the pelvis. The book is actually called "Redefining your core". In the process of figuring out what helps my back pain. I realized that I sat with my right leg crossed over my left. I also consciously try to stop myself from doing this. It might be worth paying close attention to similar habits that you might have. Thanks Nate. There is hope, you just have to find what works for you. – 505Rafter Feb 4 at 5:53
	Crossing the legs was stretching one side of my abdominal muscles making my hip dip when standing. I think it might have helped some. – 505Rafter Feb 4 at 5:56

Herniated L4/L5 disc - Any specific foods, treatment to help with this?

11 Answers