Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

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I'm in my first year in a health science-related program and taking a biochemistry course. I knew we'd get there eventually, but last week we hit metabolism.

The prof mainly stuck to the science stuff, but also threw in things like:

your brain can't run without carbohydrates
ketosis is a "pathology" and must be avoided. It's very dangerous
Atkins is dangerous because it's an all-protein diet
you need to eat lots of carbohydrates or you'll hit the wall
you should be drinking sugar constantly if you are participating in endurance sports
"think of yourself as an animal running away from a predator. That animal requires a high-carbohydrate diet to out run its predator" etc....

After class I approached him and he was very open to doing some reading. He was particularly shocked when I told him I'd learned that the body can run happily on ketones. He could NOT believe that there was research that a low-carbohydrate diet is healthy. He is, however, open to learning more and is on board with saturated fats being good.

I've googled around and other than an Emily Deans article, can't find anything worth sending to a well-read professor about ketones and low carb body functioning. Can anyone direct me to some articles I can send him??? I was impressed at how willing to learn he was. As he is lecturing a room full of future medical professionals when he teaches this course, I'd love for him to be giving them (us) GOOD information because everyone who left lecture last week was pretty convinced that it's high carb or die...

Thank you.

flag	asked Oct 24 2011 at 18:48 AshleyH 113●1

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"DO FOOD ELECTRONS IMPART A QUANTUM EFFECT?" ???? – Matt Oct 24 2011 at 19:20

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Dextery, it's that Dr K comes off like a kook to anyone reading casually. – Casey Oct 24 2011 at 19:42

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Dextery, you're the one living in a quilted box. Is it soft and cuddly in there? – Chickenosaurus Rex Oct 24 2011 at 20:05

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Electrons may be interesting to muse about, but Quilt's article may not be the best thing for convincing a skeptical professor..."On the plane home from the AHS at UCLA I was reading a series of physics papers that I had mentioned to “The Kracken” while at the AHS. I asked Matt a rather jumbled question this weekend I had from this paper about a chemistry and electron transport and unusual physical effects in relation to oxidative phosphorylation that occurs at the mitochondrial level when we eat. He looked at me like I was nuts..." AHS, Kracken, and quantum effects may be a bit indirect.... – Kamal♦ Oct 24 2011 at 20:12

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@Dextery: Please, get over yourself and take your condescension elsewhere. It has no place here. Are you honestly going to say you don't find his writings a bit incoherent? Do you believe you're that "far ahead of the rest of us"? You aren't. You have no idea what you're talking about half of the time. Quit using CW when you have nothing better to throw out since you have no cogent argument for your positions other than nodding your head every time The Quilt exhales. You keep saying the same things ad nauseam. – Chickenosaurus Rex Oct 25 2011 at 1:31

show 24 more comments

Matt · Answer 1 · 2011-10-24 23:11:59Z UTC

Hi Ashley,

There are a few good links here:

Low Carbohydrate Diet Review: Shifting the Paradigm

Jamie Scott has a lot of well thought through and scientific posts there that are worth reading anyway.

Also I would be cautious about thinking in terms of proving points to someone. Few things that are discussed here are proven. It is more about asking questions and thinking about what we think we know.

Jeff · Answer 2 · 2011-10-24 19:12:30Z UTC

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here are a few good reads

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa022637

http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/EJIM_PUBLISHED.pdf

and for the saturated fat argument that will invariably come up

http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract

answered Oct 24 2011 at 19:12

Jeff
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	Thank you so much!!! – AshleyH Oct 24 2011 at 19:27
	I would add Peter's Hyperlipid blog to this great list – The Loon Oct 24 2011 at 20:50
	The paper on Alzheimers tries to make the claim that high carb diets can lead to Alzheimers based on AGEs but a diet of high GI carbs that raises insulin would protect you from AGEs and increase cholesterol production which is protective according to the study. The weight loss one is ridiculous as well, they basically tested a standard american diet versus a ketogenic diet..... – cliff Oct 26 2011 at 14:10

none · Answer 3 · 2011-10-24 20:34:36Z UTC

I've been appreciating what a lady named Stephanie Seneff has to say about cholesterol these days - the benefits of it that is. Here is her page from MIT - since she is on faculty there http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/ and here is her blog: http://stephanie-on-health.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=14.

Since she has the power of MIT and several published papers maybe your prof would consider what she has to say.

I believe Art Devany also linked to her paper on obesity.

She is pretty anti carb, pro cholesterol pro sunshine especially as it relates to Alzheimer's and ADD. She is vehemently anti-statin.

Olivia · Answer 4 · 2011-10-24 19:09:13Z UTC

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Are you sure he didn't say ketoACIDOSIS, or perhaps confuse the two terms? I mean, it's true that ketoacidosis is a pathological state and is very dangerous. It's a weird mistake for a biochem professor to make, but people seem to confuse ketosis and ketoacidosis a lot.

He seems confused about what Atkins is, but he's correct that an all (lean) protein diet isn't good for us.

He's right that the brain does, in fact, need some glucose. You don't necessarily have to eat it, but it will get it somehow.

Most of this doesn't sound so bad, just kind of oversimplified, probably because it's a first year course.

edited Oct 24 2011 at 19:09

answered Oct 24 2011 at 19:03

Olivia
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He specifically said KETOSIS! Which I called him on after class - asked him if he meant ketoacidosis and he said no, that ketosis is dangerous because gluconeogenesis is hard on the body and that the brain can't get enough glucose that way. But I was under the impression that the brain could function just fine in ketosis from all the paleo reading I've done... – AshleyH Oct 24 2011 at 19:31

Well since he is your professor ask him for the research that backs up his claim that gluconeogenesis is hard on the body....seems like he should be able to provide some evidence for these claims if he's going to be teaching them, aside from his authoritative role of course. Sounds like he's willing to engage in discussion so thats good! – JayJay Oct 24 2011 at 20:34

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Are there any legit physiologists who think ketosis is good for healthy people? – cliff Oct 24 2011 at 20:35

I would make the distinction between ketosis and low carb....there is sufficient evidence in many of the bellow links that low carb is healthy. There is ample reason to believe our ancestors floated in and out of ketosis on an ongoing basis and that they probably remained in ketosis seasonally. Ambimorph's responses to this showing why ketosis is not "stressful" still stands as far as I am concerned. – JayJay Oct 25 2011 at 0:06

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Where is the evidence for our ancestors floating in and out of ketosis? Whos ancestors? – cliff Oct 26 2011 at 14:02

Travis Culp · Answer 5 · 2011-10-24 18:56:00Z UTC

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Strictly speaking, the brain can't run completely without carbohydrates (glucose), but that glucose doesn't necessarily need to be ingested as such, since we can create it from glucogenic amino acids.

The rest of the points are controversial, even in the paleosphere, but I suppose you could point to the many hundreds of people who are eating in this way with no apparent ill effects.

answered Oct 24 2011 at 18:56

Travis Culp♦
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	Thanks. I would love it if he would stop going on and on about drinking sports drinks and how important a high sugar diet is to my class and the classes that follow. That's why I want to show him the other research :). So he can mention that high sugar isn't the only way to run your body!!! – AshleyH Oct 24 2011 at 19:29
	Glycogen and electrolyte repletion is very important for athletes, but few of them are going to need sports drinks. – Travis Culp♦ Oct 24 2011 at 20:12

Yon Peezy · Answer 6 · 2011-10-24 19:09:16Z UTC

I might recommend these two article from Dr. Michael Eades. These are from a little while back and are all about the process the body goes through while adapting to the low-carb/ketogenic diet. These certainly helped me on my way to taking up the paleolithic diet.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/tips-tricks-for-starting-or-restarting-low-carb-pt-i/

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/saturated-fat/tips-tricks-for-starting-or-restarting-low-carb-pt-ii/

This one, also form Dr. Eades, is simply titled "Metabolism and Ketosis," and i have found it to be most helpful in showing the way in which the human metabolism works in the absence or restriction of carbohydrates. I do hope these will help both you and your professor come to a better understanding of the Ketogenic process. Good luck!

EF · Answer 7 · 2011-10-24 19:17:47Z UTC

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I'm not sure this is scientific enough, but it should be a good starting point for discussion and further research: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/

answered Oct 24 2011 at 19:17

EF
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Thank you! I'm looking forward to getting his feedback on all this stuff. – AshleyH Oct 24 2011 at 19:28

cliff · Answer 8 · 2011-10-24 18:55:58Z UTC

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He's right in regards to sugar and athletic function.

answered Oct 24 2011 at 18:55

cliff
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Tell what to Novak Djokavic? Cliff said "that is why ketogenic diets don't work for athletes". I am not agreeing or disagreeing with this point, but Novak is gluten-free, not on a ketogenic diet. Apolo Uno (sic) is the spokesman for 5-dollar footlongs on Subway commercials. I just saw one today in fact. Ketogenic diets obviously are not optimal if you are an anaerobic-heavy athlete. – Kamal♦ Oct 25 2011 at 1:43

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Dextery- It is obvious for this very simple reason (please correct me if I am wrong). Anaerobic athletes requires much more muscle glycogen than do other atheletes. One cannot replenish glycogen stores to full capacity or supersaturation (ala glycogen depletion and repletion cycles) if one is on a ketogenic diet. You may be doing much better than 10 years ago, which is great, but I don't think you are an anaerobic athlete. Bodybuilder? Powerlifter? Caber-tosser? – Kamal♦ Oct 25 2011 at 2:02

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Dextery its obvious because we know how to read, go read jeffs first link. You can't perform maximal efforts on a ketogenic diet. Charles washington is the only guy you mentioned who is on a ketogenic diet and he is not an athlete, he is a random dude who runs marathons and loses. – cliff Oct 25 2011 at 11:44

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By the way just because your so-called athletic performance is better now, based on your claims doesn't mean anything. Are you an elite athlete? Have you tried adding in carbs recently? – cliff Oct 25 2011 at 11:45

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Yes. I saw the word "can't" in all caps above. Along with "real". – Ambimorph Oct 26 2011 at 20:10

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Bread-Eating Beelzebub · Answer 9 · 2011-10-24 20:48:12Z UTC

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Check out Stephen Cunnane's stuff. If you are in school, you should be able to access his papers.

answered Oct 24 2011 at 20:48

Bread-Eating Beelzebub
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What can I show my biochem prof to prove the paleo point?

9 Answers