Most vaccines seem to be without merit for most individuals

Vaccines are for the benefit of everyone else in the population just as much as they are for the individual. By not taking vaccines you increase the risk of a pandemic.

Also, the logic, "I don't need to get the vaccine because everyone else has it," is flawed-- consider what happens if everyone thinks that way. (Apologies if you are not thinking this way, I cannot tell from your post)

Vaccines for things like HPV and Hep-A (IIRC) (which can be avoided with certain lifestyles) are debatable. But I think you have at least a decade before your child would be getting those.

Final note: the "link" between the MMR vaccine and autism has been completely and utterly discredited.

Please get all appropriate vaccines.

Ooh, such a hot button topic!

I have very mixed feelings about vaccines, especially when it concerns the very young. In theory, I think that they are an excellent means to build immune resistance to a wide variety of illnesses; it reminds me of homeopathy, taking a small enough dose of something to elicit a physiological response without contracting the disease itself. I do, however, have serious concerns on two fronts:

1. The timing/quantity of vaccines that we expose small, developing immune systems to.

2. The adjuvants/additives that are in the vaccines.

For these reasons my husband and I decided, when our first son was born, to vaccinate ourselves and delay his vaccinations until he was past the newborn period, and even then to only give one vaccine at a time, and to consciously select which ones to give. For an infant, our main concerns were pertussis (which breaks out fairly frequently in the Bay Area where we live), Hib and pneumococcal.

Unfortunately, my son (who is admittedly very sensitive and has multiple food allergies) has now had a total of two different vaccinations resulting in one "strong" reaction and one "severe" reaction (developed non-viral encephalitis after his first vaccine at 4 months; fortunately he recovered without brain damage). This has left me even more wary than before, and we have, thus far, delayed vaccinating our second son, who just turned one. He will, most likely, receive selective immunizations, however we have decided not to vaccinate our firstborn anymore unless new information comes to light, or we find ourselves travelling to an area with considerable risk.

In the end, my advise is to follow your gut, but listen to your brain, too. Do your research, ask questions. Vaccines are likely responsible for much good in our society, but they can cause harm too, and what is good for most people might not be what is good for you and your children.

Vaccination is a tough issue and has been a difficult one for me to figure out. My kids are 13 and 15, so when they were infants, the situation was quite different. I will give you my thoughts on a few individual vaccines.

Polio: IIRC, there has not been a case of wild polio in the western hemisphere since the 1970s (unless there have been some since the late 1990s when I did my research). At the time my kids were born, the only option was the live oral polio vaccine, which caused a handful of polio cases each year, both in infants and in others exposed the shedding of the live vaccine in the infants' poop. To me, this was a no-brainer: if there was a higher chance of my baby contracting polio if he got the vaccine, why the hell would I get it? The injectable (killed) vaccine is much safer, but I don't know the details on it. If you are planning international travel, that is a whole other situation. If you are in frequent contact with immigrant communities or with other people who travel to countries where polio is an issue, that would place Fritz at higher risk also.

Chickenpox: it is unknown how long the chickenpox vaccine lasts. My concern is that we are putting of cases of chickenpox during childhood, when the disease is usually mild.The vaccine wears off, resulting in more adults contracting chickenpox. Chickenpox is much more serious in adults.

Pertussis: the acellular pertussis vaccine was not available when my kids were born, and the whole-cell vaccine was associated with a high rate of serious and sometimes permanent side effects. Unfortunately, pertussis is endemic in many parts of the US, and can be very serious, resulting in weeks or months of illness, hospitalization, and, occasionally, death. The acellular vaccine is much safer, but again, I can't comment on the specifics.

MMR: measles and mumps used to be common childhood infections that everyone got. Yes, there can be complications, but they are not common. The big risk held up for mumps is male infertility, but the reality is that mumps affects the testes very rarely, and almost always affects only one, so infertility is vanishingly rare. Rubella is extremely rare now, but the consequences if it is contracted during pregnancy are devastating.

Hepatitis B is a blood-borne pathogen; you contract it the same way you contract HIV. Unless you think your infant will be having unprotected sex or sharing needles, it is unnecessary to consider this vaccine for at least a decade. They only give it at birth because it's hard to get teenagers in to the office to get vaccines.

I used data from the Institute of Medicine (part of NIH) when I made my decisions. They rated the risks of each vaccine; most of them were unknown, because the vaccines generally do not go through the same rigorous trials that most medications go through. After weighing the risk-benefit ratio of each vaccine, I chose to delay almost everything. The decision was difficult and I never felt easy with it. My decisions might be very different today, however. My kids have now received most of their vaccines - after their nervous systems were matured.

In terms of herd immunity, my feeling is this: when I chose to become a parent, my primary responsibility was to my child. To put one's own child at risk is to be an irresponsible parent. People who choose not to breastfeed are putting their babies at much higher risk than those who choose not to vaccinate, but they are not being excoriated for it (no offense meant to those who were unable to breastfeed).

This is a hard question to answer, the following are just some of my random thoughts.

Fisrtly there are no perfect vaccines. It is almost impossible to produce a vaccine that gives 100% protection with zero risk. The risk or a vaccine is always balanced against the risk of the disease. However the vaccines around now are much safer than examples from the past and carry extremly low risks.

Many vaccines seem unnessesary now only because almost everyone in the population is vaccinated. Most serious childhood diseases are largely forgotten in Europe and the USA but have not gone away and are only a flight away. If vaccination rates drop below a critical level, usually about 80%, these epidemic diseases are soon back. Measles still kill hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated children worldwide each year. Not vaccinating and relying on the protection of everyone else vaccinating is very selfish. There are children and adults who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons and they rely on the protection from everyone else who is.

The idea vaccinating babies or multiple vaccinations is harmful: Vaccines produce a very small immune response compared to the real infection. Babies are exposed to hundreds of bacteria and viruses from imediatly after birth, they are everywhere and were far more so in our evolutionary history. Response of the immune system to mutiple potential threats at once at a very young age is completely natural, it is what the immune system is designed to do. A babies immune system is identifying, responding to and fighting off many threats everyday. Many vaccines are given very early because it is ofen the young children that are most at risk of dying from viral infections like measles.

Most childhood vaccines given now target viral infections. These are viral diseases spread from person to person and for which there is little effective treatment. These diseases have little to do with good sanitation, clean water or good diet. While the rational for vaccinating against childhood diseases is obvious, some others like Hepititis B are less so. Population wide vaccination often involves a pragmatic approch. Most people will simply never come back for vaccinations as a teenager or adult. Also the people who will most need it are probably the least likely to get it as an adult.

People who work in public health to prevent infectious diseases are usually good people who want to make the world a better place and usually don't get paid a great deal for doing it. I would not compare it to nutritional science. With a disease like measles you know if what you do works, either people get measles or they don't. It's not like trying to work out how diet affects heart disease. As an aside, the guy who developed the Hepititis B vaccine worked at my University http://www.research-innovation.ed.ac.uk/success/hepatitisB.asp he gave away all the royalties he would have made from the vaccine.

And finally a song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xw0Ob5bqs&feature=player_embedded

The CDC has alot of very good information on vaccines such as the reccommeded child vaccination scedule.

There is information on each vaccine preventable disease.

I think there are reasonable arguments that these vaccines given to children. Some are to prevent common dangerous diseases. Some to prevent diseases re-entering the USA like polio. Others to reduce the longer-term risks the child like hepatitis. I think the common childhood diseases are the most important to vaccinate very young children against.

Hmm. Some interesting responses from folk here. Let me lay down how I feel about Vaccines right off the bat! >>> I don't know. I am not really sure yet. And I am frustrated by the whole deal.

For me personally, I am at a crossroads about a specific vaccine that I have been reluctant to go forward with. It's the whooping cough (Pertussis) vaccine. My sister in law just had a baby last week. She was born 3 weeks premature at a weight of 5 lbs 0 ounces and narrowly evaded the NICU. I am not allowed to get to hold this little precious girl or even get close to her until I've had my vaccine. So I am almost being forced to get it, else face the inconvenience and "miss-out" factor by choosing not to get it. Then again, I have Paleo babby on the way myself, and the cycle of ponderance begins again.

Vaccines is a HOT topic and there are people foaming at the mouth on both sides of the fence trying to assert their position. Many of those that are squarely and firmly in the YES camp believe that the people who are iffy on it or downright against it are being selfish and/or wreckless. Many of those that are squarely and firmly in the NO camp believe that the people who are totally for it are born of Satan, out to disease the world and crush humanity forever.

It's quite the tug of war. Anytime I see very strong opposition on stuff like this, I know immediately that there will be no easy answer because there is truth on both sides.

The tough part then, is understanding what's really true and what is fear mongering.... understanding what is bogus information to support their side, and what is valuable truth put forth or exposed.

From the NO camp, here are a couple of highly reviewed books:

Saying NO to Vaccines

Saying NO to Vaccines on Amazon.com

Vaccine Epidemic Review

Vaccine Epidemic on Amazon.com

Also, here is a site that seems to fight back against the YES camp and their assertions that the autism link was bogus. In other words, they are saying the folks who 'disproved' the autism link were doing what the medical industry does all the time >> Lying and deceiving.

http://vaccinesafetyfirst.com/Home.html

http://vaccinesafetyfirst.com/Experts.html

From the YES camp, here is the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)

http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/safety.html

Also, here's some other resources that seem to be somewhat balanced on their stance from what I can tell, offering supporting/opposing information from both sides.

http://www.immunize.org/safety/

Simply put, it's a tough call, as there are convincing arguments from both sides. Anyone who flames others for being iffy on this issue is likely not considering the difficulty involved based on seemingly valid points from both camps.

It completely scares me that the herd immunity of US children is being affected by mommies with no scientific education who think it sounds like a bad idea to expose developing immune systems to vaccines. It really challenges my normally libertarian beliefs.

You know that argument against paleo that "people didn't live that long?" Well we typically dismiss it by saying "Well, if you don't count infant mortality...then people lived quite a long time." But for the mothers of the Paleolithic, infant mortality did count. And it continues to count in many foraging societies. If you want to reenact this part of paleo, go ahead, but you'll do it without my support.

I would recommend Seth Mnookin's book The Panic Virus, which explores the origin of these memes.

If you have a lot time on your hands, this free book is worth reading. Don't accept sources that are just random websites. There are a lot of quacks out there.

I'm in the camp of "an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure" on this one.

My wife and I had carefully considered it, and we just felt it was best to get all the vaccinations.

science before "gut" and "ancestors". We, as modern societies, have managed to drastically lower the child mortality and almost completely rid of many horrible diseases. I find that some parents act selfishly not doing vaccines, as they think their child is safe. the thing is, the system works only if everyone participates. very rarely there is a severe reaction to the shots. a day of flu-like symptoms is worth the benefits.

to me the question is not "if" but rather "how" - to choose the best way to get vaccinated (multiple or separately, etc.).

As much as I’m appreciating certain parts of Paleo, I tend to regard anti-vaccination sentiments as highly dangerous, though I’ll be the first to admit if I’m proven wrong. I think Penn & Teller put it best (note: language NSFW or for prudes):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

THis is a difficult topic. Certainly knowledge of vaccinosis is just in it's infancy now. I would agree not to give all shots at once and if my child showed bad reactions, I would consider not doing further ones. Actually, vaccinosis is even more common in pets which typically get repeated vaccinations each year. And I know of puppies that have died from their vaccines. Vaccines are not harmless. I would at least consider the severity of the illness to be prevented before I injected my child or animal.

It just so happens that many experts are suggesting pet animals not be vaccinated yearly anymore. THeir immune systems have good memory just like human immune systems and evidence suggests they do not need yearly boosters any more than humans do. Plus it is a well established fact that cats often get cancer from vaccines and it is a very aggressive cancer that is almost always fatal. The cancer begins exactly at the site of injection on the back of the neck. If you look at vet visit rates after shots, they are much higher in the first month after vaccinations are given than at any other time of the year. Unfortunately, many vets get a large portion of their income from vaccines which cost them pennies to buy and inject for which they charge their clients a large chunk of change. Therefore many vets are happy to continue with the status quo. But vaccines do make many animals sick. I think vaccines are good in some ways, but people definitely need to think about the cost benefit ratio before deciding to inject willynilly. -Eva

My answer is a resounding NO. Not for a newborn. Except in the cases I will share below.

If I personally did any vaccinating, it would be delayed & selective, on a case by case basis, depending on where I lived, how much travel I planned with babe, my nutritional & health status, etc.

I've been researching this issue for the last 4 years, because I work with families from pre-conception through post-partum.

I've know families who range the continuum from no vaxing at all to the full set of recommended vaccinations.

For me, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of making sure mom's nutrition is optimal pre-conception through all of the breastfeeding relationship so that her immune system/gut health is in an ideal state to convey strong immunity and good gut health to her baby.

However, if mom's diet is less than optimal or she is Vitamin D deficient or she has experienced antibiotics during pregnancy or she has had a cesarean or a birth with a fair amount of interventions, or the breastfeeding relationship is interrupted, then I would consider vaccination --again, on a vaccine-by-vaccine basis.

I do not advise my clients on vaccinations, but I do provide resources (if asked) that hopefully will give them enough information (pro & con) to make the decision that is right for their family.

Not to be taken as medical advice. This is how our family made our decisions.

For newborns (during the first two months), the only recommended vaccination is HepB. This not so much because of future behavioral concerns as because it can be transmitted from mother to baby at birth, and early vaccination (within the first 12 hours) can prevent infection of the newborn. We chose to get this one with my second, but not with my third, as between the two I'd had the full HepB vaccination series myself, plus titers drawn, so the chance of me being infected myself was vanishingly slim. I personally think this one is a good idea if the mother's immunity status it not KNOWN (beyond just "I believe myself to be in a monogamous relationship").

DTaP, MMR, Polio - We feel that these vaccinations have a long history, address current health concerns (polio is rare in the west, but definitely not eradicated worldwide, so has the potential for resurgence), and are important from a herd immunity standpoint.

Varicella - I share the concern that the lifespan of this vaccine is unknown, and that I'd prefer natural infection and lifelong immunity to the prospect of it wearing off in adulthood. I do think that it makes sense to get this when approaching the teen years, especially if immunity status is not 100% known.

Hib/PCV/Rota/Flu - These are recommended only during the first year for healthy children. If my child were premature, chronically ill, or in a group care setting on a regular basis I'd consider these. As it is, she's full term, healthy, and stays at home 99% of the time. As such, I don't feel they're particularly beneficial for her from either a disease prevention or a herd immunity standpoint. Rota I'm especially wary of due to a history of complications in previous versions. I have a bit of a distrust of the flu vaccine because it changes yearly, and therefore long-term safety of a given year cannot possibly be adequately tested.

HepA (recommended during the second year) - This is frequently transmitted via food service. If anyone in the family eats food that others have prepared, it's probably not a bad idea.

HPV (older childhood) - I am really unsure about the safety of this one, and thankfully have several more years before it's an issue.

Meningitis (older childhood/teen) - haven't heard much negative about this one.

I vaccinated both my kids--didn't ask a lot of questions, and fortunately they did not have any adverse reactions.

I enquired about the chicken pox vaccination for myself several years prior to becoming pregnant for the 1st time (approximately 15-18 years ago, I think). I never had a documentated case of chicken pox but had been exposed numerous times. My doctor refused to do a titer. I ended up with chicken pox when I was 19 weeks pregnant with child #1. He ended up being fine--but it was a very difficult pregnancy both physically and emotionally due to the chicken pox. If you decide not to vaccinate your child and you have a daughter, please consider the issue of chicken pox and pregnancy--it can be really serious.

It's probably not all that attractive to vilify parents' decisions on this one way or the other.

I do restrict newer vaccines such as the H1N1--the rest I've fully researched and I'm ok with. My youngest had hot fevers after every vaccination round and I'd stay awake at night panicked and wondering if we'd made a bad decision.

Before you have children you believe your ability to be discerning will be superior to other people. Everybody on this site is better prepared and educated about the pros and cons of vaccines/children's health/nutrition etc. by virtue of the paleo lifestyle..education...demographics..inclinations..whatever. That's really great.

Uhh...yes...there are a lot of mommies with no scientific education. That will continue to be true I'm sure. I still think it should be the parents decision and not the powers that be.

After you have a child and you hold this little tiny human completely depending on you--the questions and answers become more complicated. You try to do the best you can.

We selectively vax. Closer to the non-vaxing side, though. Before you vax, research everything. Mothering.com/discussions has a vaccine forum; check the CDC's own website for the effectiveness of each vaccine and also look into Dr Sears recommendations for vaxing.

I agree 100% with Jamie, it is a personal decision, with tons and tons of conflicting information out there it is up to the parents to research this and implement their own vax strategy. My daughter is turning 1 in 3 weeks and we are in the middle of our research. The first thing we are doing, regardless of how many we decide to allow, is NOT doing them all at once. That is a completely un-natural course of action and does not simulate what would have happened to our ancestors. Our immune systems are powerful but to try and deal with 4-6 vax at once makes no sense at all. Our pediatrician is on board with this an recommends 6-weeks in-between shots (even though this was not offered until we asked).

Of course there are pros and cons to everything - and to a certain point its a very personal decision. But the fact remains that the side effects of the disease itself outweigh the side effects of the vaccine - we dont see many side effects of the disease now days because we vaccinate. I am not totally convinced that low insulin levels support the immune system enough to protect from these diseases. But I do know that many kids and adults die from Measles and such in countries where they don't/ cant vaccinate.

Its a really hard decision - Yes - but put it into perspective - just about everyone you know has been vaccinated without problem - there are a LOT of people out there vaccinated.

I know people who believe their child has autism because of vaccination and I also have a good friend who lost her baby to Pertussis just a few years ago. There are risks to both sides the trick is to weigh out the risk for you and your kids.

I am very pro vaccination but I have also decided not to vaccinate for Chicken Pox - I felt that the disease in children was mild - but if they had not had it before the age of 15 I would get antibodies tested and vaccinate as its no fun in Adults. Thats me playing the risk game.

I think this is a fantastic article about vaccines -- http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html You'll see at the end that he recommends a vaccination schedule that starts with NO vaccines till the kid is 2 years old, then picks what this doctor perceives to be the most important. The best thing about the article is that it links to other sites re: grounded stats and various conflicts of interest.

Based on my own experience (N=1) vaccines are not needed. I had very few vaccines as a child maybe 4-5 (compared to 20 for one year old in these days!). I contracted measles and Hep A and something else, all of which went very mild. My high school tried make me complete the remaining vaccines but I kept delaying it and they finally forgot about me. I have not had a single cold/flu or similar in 20 years. I think keeping immune system in top shape is far superior to any vaccines.

I consulted with several no nonsense MDs and some do not vaccinate their kids, instead focusing on keeping immune system in top shape. They did not give me medical advice, just told me what they do at their home.

Another points against vaccines: 1.Every recalled vaccine proved to be safe by FDA. 2.It is true there is no direct evidence linking vaccines to autism. But the lack of evidence does not clear it either. Just because there is no direct evidence of God's existence no one can prove nor disprove the existence of God. 3. I work in busy office environment and see people get flue shots every year and end up getting flue anyway. Not all of them but most of them.

Again, all of this is strictly my personal opinion.

You should never, ever vaccinate a newborn (or anyone for that matter)! A child's immune system isn't fully developed until at least 2 years old. And not to mention the toxic ingredients. I believe it's either China or Japan that may it illegal for any child under two to get a vaccine. And what happened? There incidences of SIDS dramatically dropped for children 2 and under.

50 Reasons To Protect Infants From Vaccines

Dispelling Vaccine Myths

The Greater Good video

The Chalkboard Campaign 4-minute video

Herd Immunity: Three Reasons Why I Don’t Vaccinate My Children… And Why Vaccine Supporters Shouldn’t Care

The above reply by "Jennifer" was me. It wasn't letting me log in. Thanks.