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If you recall, I'm the OP from the "Had a Heart Attack" thread. http://paleohacks.com/questions/68443/had-a-heart-attack-need-suggestions#axzz1Zimd5Kbd

Anyway, before going off on any of the suggestions, I thought a VAP might be helpful. Well, now I'm really unsure of what to do from here. I guess as suggested in the other thread I need to go down the Virus path and have that checked out. Anything else here that jumps out at you?

Glucose, Serum 95 mg/dL 65-99 01
Uric Acid, Serum 6.1 mg/dL 3.7-8.6 01
BUN 23 HIGH mg/dL 6-20 01
Creatinine, Serum 1.11 mg/dL 0.76-1.27 01
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 85 mL/min/1.73 >59 01
eGFR If Africn Am 98 mL/min/1.73 >59 01
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 21 HIGH 8-19 01
Sodium, Serum 138 mmol/L 135-145 01
Potassium, Serum 4.7 mmol/L 3.5-5.2 01
Chloride, Serum 102 mmol/L 97-108 01
Carbon Dioxide, Total 23 mmol/L 20-32 01
Calcium, Serum 10.0 mg/dL 8.7-10.2 01
Phosphorus, Serum 3.4 mg/dL 2.5-4.5 01
Protein, Total, Serum 6.8 g/dL 6.0-8.5 01
Albumin, Serum 4.6 g/dL 3.5-5.5 01
Globulin, Total 2.2 g/dL 1.5-4.5 01
A/G Ratio 2.1 1.1-2.5 01
Bilirubin, Total 0.6 mg/dL 0.0-1.2 01
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 39 IU/L 25-150 01
LDH 113 IU/L 0-225 01
AST (SGOT) 19 IU/L 0-40 01
ALT (SGPT) 25 IU/L 0-55 01
GGT 7 IU/L 0-65 01
Iron, Serum 82 ug/dL 40-155 01
Cholesterol, Total 232 HIGH mg/dL 100-199 01
Triglycerides 188 HIGH mg/dL 0-149 01
HDL Cholesterol 34 LOW mg/dL >39 01
According to ATP-III Guidelines, HDL-C >59 mg/dL is considered a
negative risk factor for CHD.
LDL Cholesterol Calc 160 HIGH mg/dL 0-99 01
T. Chol/HDL Ratio 6.8 HIGH ratio units 0.0-5.0 01
TSH 1.300 uIU/mL 0.450-4.500 01
Thyroxine (T4) 8.3 ug/dL 4.5-12.0 01
T3 Uptake 35 % 24-39 01

Free Thyroxine Index 2.9 1.2-4.9 01
WBC 5.2 x10E3/uL 4.0-10.5 01
RBC 5.41 x10E6/uL 4.10-5.60 01
Hemoglobin 16.1 g/dL 12.5-17.0 01
Hematocrit 48.0 % 36.0-50.0 01
MCV 89 fL 80-98 01
MCH 29.8 pg 27.0-34.0 01
MCHC 33.5 g/dL 32.0-36.0 01
RDW 14.0 % 11.7-15.0 01
Platelets 267 x10E3/uL 140-415 01
Neutrophils 56 % 40-74 01
Lymphs 28 % 14-46 01
Monocytes 9 % 4-13 01
Eos 6 % 0-7 01
Basos 1 % 0-3 01
Immature Cells 01
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.0 x10E3/uL 1.8-7.8 01
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.4 x10E3/uL 0.7-4.5 01
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 x10E3/uL 0.1-1.0 01
Eos (Absolute) 0.3 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4 01
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2 01
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0-2 01
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.1 01
Hematology Comments: 01
LDL Cholesterol 156 HIGH mg/dL <130 02
HDL Cholesterol 29 LOW mg/dL >=40 02
VLDL Cholesterol 50 HIGH mg/dL <30 02
Cholesterol, Total 235 HIGH mg/dL <200 02
Triglycerides 190 HIGH mg/dL <150 02
Non HDL Chol. (LDL+VLDL) 206 HIGH mg/dL <160 02
apoB100-calc 132 HIGH mg/dL <109 02
LDL-R (Real)-C 116 HIGH mg/dL <100 02
Lp(a) Cholesterol 4.0 mg/dL <10 02
IDL Cholesterol 36 HIGH mg/dL <20 02
Remnant Lipo. (IDL+VLDL3) 66 HIGH mg/dL <30 02
Probable Metabolic Syndrome Yes Abnormal No 02
HDL-2 (Most Protective) 5 LOW mg/dL >10 02
HDL-3 (Less Protective) 24 LOW mg/dL >30 02
VLDL-3 (Small Remnant) 30 HIGH mg/dL <10 02

LDL1 Pattern A 22.4 mg/dL 02
LDL2 Pattern A 10.9 mg/dL 02
LDL3 Pattern B 62.3 mg/dL 02
LDL4 Pattern B 20.5 mg/dL 02
LDL Density Pattern B Abnormal A 02

C-Reactive Protein, Cardiac 0.93 mg/L 0.00-3.00 01

Homocyst(e)ine, Plasma 4.4 umol/L 0.0-15.0 01
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9 Answers

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Your LDL is predominently small dense LDL pattern B meaning you have the type of LDL that causes heart disease.

Your triglycerides are quite high at 190. Should be at 60 or under. Again this is a marker of heart disease.

And your HDL is quite low. For a man should be above 70...This indicates you have a leaky gut meaning toxins you take into your gut are leaking past the junctions in the lining of the gut and get into your blood vascular system.

Heart disease has nothing to do with high total cholesterol....it is the subfractions that are important.

It is no wonder you have had previous heart events.

What to do.

I would recommend you immediately read and follow Dr Kruse's Leaky Gut Posting as well as follow his Leptin Reset protocol. Especially following a strict ketogenic diet with almost zero carbs. http://www.jackkruse.com Dr Kruse would prescribe for your to purchase either Sisson's Primal Blueprint book, or Robb Wolf's The Paleo Solution.

You can change all of your markers of heart disease. You can get to all large bouyant LDL particles...the good kind and you can reduce your triglycerides and you can raise your HDL, but you must be very strict in your elimination of all wheat products and sugar products and you must fuel your body with copious amounts of coconut oil and moderate protein.

The supplements talked about on the other thread are fine...but all the supplements will not do a thing for you if you do not alter your diet. Supplements are great to assist your diet in your goal to reducing your markers for heart disease.

With the markers you have, you are living on borrowed time.

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4 
 Six weeks ago my TGs were 120. I'm not sure what my gmother could have done to make them go up to 190 over that time. – berger6696 Nov 10 2011 at 1:17
1 
 Dextery. I'm a little offended by your above comment. I have done a complete 180 on my diet. No grain, VLC, lots of meat fish eggs and veggies for the past 6 months or so. Before that I was eating the typical SAD diet. I'm not sure why you would say I'm resistant to diet change. Regarding the CT scan, I will definitely consider it. My only reservation is that following my NSTEMI I did have a heart cath done and the cardiologist said there was "no damage and no blockage". – berger6696 Nov 10 2011 at 15:14
2 
 Sorry for the insult. I always look at food as being the medicine for the body and when the body is expressing a less than optimal condition, I think poor medicine (nutrients) either now or in the past. It took a lot of years to get to your condition and I don't think a 6 mo to a year into paleo with huge amount of CAD is going to reverse the trend of deterioration immediately. A coronary calcium score would give you a baseline from which to work from. No dietary change is going to help if you have systemic infection. A Highly sensitive CRP would reveal that condition. – Dextery Nov 10 2011 at 15:54
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 You take NSAIDS daily? Only baby aspirin or additionally something else??? NSAIDs are the worse offenders for the gut... – grace Nov 11 2011 at 23:00
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 I would not even allow my ex wife on a statin and I dont like her. No human should take them in my view. – The Quilt Nov 12 2011 at 4:25
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I don't quite understand why your TGs are so high when your bodyfat is so low and your diet, as posted in the other thread, doesn't really contain anything that would spike it (I doubt 1 TBSP of honey is going to do it). Combining a high fat diet with fructose, ethanol, or MCTs seems to have the ability to spike TGs, especially if one is sedentary, but you don't match that profile at all, as far as I can tell.

I suppose you could be right about the reversal of fatty liver occurring, which should purge all of that fat into the blood stream as TGs.

VAPs usually take a couple weeks to come back, so I'm guessing that you hadn't been doing too much of the fasted walking before this test. I think it's important to do it, even if it's something of a crutch that simply depletes TGs that are being generated from some underlying problem. Either way you need to keep them around 50 or so, so this would be the best route.

Your diet is so low in carbohydrates that you shouldn't be encountering any fuel selection issues with your muscle mitochondria. As such, they will readily accept and oxidize VLDL-TGs.

The good news is that the reason your HDL is so low is that your TGs are so high. In manufacturing VLDL, the liver soaks up so much cholesterol that it impacts HDL production. When you solve the TG problem (which may simply be a matter of time) you will solve the HDL problem as well. Should shift your LDL particle pattern to "A" as well since the VLDL production is soaking up cholesterol from LDL production as well.

As a side note, the slightly elevated TSH might mean that iodide and selenium supplementation are in order. You could just do small doses like 100mcg of iodide and 100mcg of selenium per day. T4 is in range, so you may have low T3, which would probably be a selenium deficiency.

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Travis, I am beyond confused. I bought a glucose meter a few days before my VAP (as suggested by DR Davis in one of his TYP articles last week) and spent a day measuring my BG every hour. It was 102 when I woke (high, I know, but have no idea why) 126 after breakfast, then averaged 95 until 9:30pm. I dont think those numbers are excessive, esp enough to cause my TGs to be that high. And yes, I worked out fasted and did some extra walking per your recommendation. On the other hand my other markers (CRP, Lp(a), and homeositine) look pretty good, no? – berger6696 Nov 9 2011 at 16:58
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 That BG range is normal, especially for someone eating low-carb. Nothing else really jumps out at me.The apoB100 is high because of the TG issue, so that too will be corrected when you correct the TGs. Honestly, were I you I would just keep eating your current diet, walk as much as possible, especially fasted and re-test in 30-90 days. – Travis Culp♦ Nov 9 2011 at 17:01
This is where I'm confused. Dont tgs come from excess carbs? If I'm not eating excess carbs (as suggested by the BG levels) then how could my trigs have possibly shot up like that? They were 120 (and appeared to be declining) a month ago. – berger6696 Nov 9 2011 at 18:53
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 An ApoE4 patient must eat fat but keep inflammation extremely low. That is the key. I have told you that here and on Davis blog. I just dont think you like the implications of what I told you but it is important to understand. The elevated TG levels tell you their is a gut problem.....liver is not clearing endotoxins so plasma is more oxidized and not reduced and this is what causes the sdLDL to oxidize. It walks with low testosterone estrogen and vitamin D pregnenolone and progesterone and DHEA. You can draw all your labs but it requires a doc who understands how to interpret it for Tx. – The Quilt Nov 11 2011 at 16:46
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 berger you need to defat the liver, eat MCT limit LCSF and eat a good amount of protein and watch the carbs and monitor the particle size but the single most important factor is makign sure your inflammation levels are low. This guarrantee's a plasma low in oxidation potential. You also must have High D3, K2, and your sex steroids and pregnenolone, DHEA must be top quartile of ranges. – The Quilt Nov 12 2011 at 4:23
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See my post regarding this frequent phenomemon:

http://paleohacks.com/questions/50789/why-does-ldl-skyrocket-when-doing-paleo-it-could-be-apoe#axzz1d1hMxqRR

Here's what the ApoE4 theorist (Joel Goldstrich from Michael Eades's blog) says about the best way to diet if you're ApoE4:

I believe the low carb, higher fat diet is the best diet for around 75% of the population. However, about 25% of the population carry the Apo E4 allele. These individuals will increase their LDL-C, LDL-P and sdLDL as they increase their fat intake. I am Apo E3/4 and have been eating low carb for the past 5 years and at the same time struggling with LDL issues. I recently began limiting fat (especially saturated fat) as well as carbs and lost approximately 15 pounds over a 10 week period while concomitantly cutting my LDL-P and sdLDL in half with little change in my LDL-C. My LDL particles got bigger and hopefully less atherogenic. My weight has now stabilized. One diet apparently doesn’t fit all.

One size does not fit all. We find this over and over again. That's why there's so much strife among us. High fat Paleo might not work for some people.

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 But I confess, I do not know what he means when he says limit fat and carbs. Not good if you also have kidney issues. My best interpretation is: go easy on SaFA and no processed carbs (for all diets); do about 200g of safe starch carbs. – Namby Pamby Nov 10 2011 at 15:46
I met Dr Goldstrich at Davis site and he has never reversed his calcium coronary score. I think he is full of baloney personally. he takes and promotes a lot of palm oil and mixed tocopherols which studies show are disease protective, hoever. I do agree that vit Es are overlook; they provide the antioxidant power for regeneration in LDL particles and HDL particles. I noted that Dr Eades had no cooments to that guy's attempt at spamming the proteinpower blog. – grace Nov 11 2011 at 22:56
OMG namby 200 grams of sage carbs would make me diabetic! Nuts! – grace Nov 11 2011 at 22:57
SAFE/SAGE... not. – grace Nov 11 2011 at 22:58
his own persoanl experience shows that LC increased lbLDL (and lowered sdLDL). it is not a good n=1 to report because he did not separate the sat fat factor out of the equation. He did have hugher sat fat, THAT IS REFERRED TO AS BURNING ONE'S BUTT FAT. The guy likeDavis and CW conveniently ignore the studies showing sat fat lowering sdLDL when combined with lower carbish diets, esp the Dreon Krauss one. – grace Nov 11 2011 at 23:38
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What about ApoE4? Over the past month or so I have started eating more (and consequently more fat) in an attempt to gain a little weight.

According to Dr Davis "Apo E4–If Frustrated has one or two apo E4 genes, then increased dietary fat will serve to exaggerate measures like small LDL despite the reduction in carbohydrates, LDL particle number, and triglycerides. This is a tough situation, since small LDL particles and high triglycerides signal carbohydrate sensitivity, while apo E4 makes this person, in effect, unable to deal with fats and dietary cholesterol. It gives me the creeps to talk about reducing fat intake, but this becomes necessary along with carbohydrate restriction, else statin drugs will come to the “rescue.”"

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Milk will spike insulin as if you ate sugar. LDL bathed in insulin become vLDL. Not good. Coconut should raise HDL. – Eric Nov 10 2011 at 7:05
It's a problem and you see this more and more with people who Paleo. That is, 25% of people who do Paleo or Low-Carb end up with high TC, primarily due to increased LDL. In your case, it's both LDL and Trigs. You can easily understand this if you recongize this as an allele phenomemon. 65% have ApoE3, which is normal; 10% have ApoE2. 25% ApoE4. If you're E4, Sat Fat could up your LDL, and HDL. – Namby Pamby Nov 10 2011 at 15:02
HDL would increase becuz of Paleo lifestyle but they both result in high TC, which would trigger alarm bells from Mr. Conventional Medicine. Look around and see how many people post about this. This is not an isolated phenomenon: it's a 25% phenomenon. – Namby Pamby Nov 10 2011 at 15:03
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 For 75%, doing high fat vastly or somewhat improve their lipids. For 25%, it worsens and in some, it's disastrous. You're not disastrous; just worse than when you were doing SAD (high carb & low fat?). The solution is something in the middle: lean meats and fish, do plenty of safe starches, go easy on dairy/eggs. Essentially, you have to do a hedge. – Namby Pamby Nov 10 2011 at 15:12
Here's some research showing that the same diet doesn't work for ApoE4s: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19761888 ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20643407 – Namby Pamby Nov 10 2011 at 15:21
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Were you fasting for this lab for 12 hrs?

if not, some are irrelevant (LDL, TG HDL).

To me the labs indicate insulin resistance (mildly hypothyroid, mildly elevated liver enzymes, high TG/HDL ratio, pattern B). Extra energy whether fat or carb can increase TGs sometimes.

In addition to the potential viral component, consider an autoimmune panel (ESR, hsCRP, ANA, etc) and a FULL THYROID panel (anti thyroid antibodies, free T3, free T4, etc).

You mentioned stress right? How is your sleep? Energy? Digestion? Your doc probably isn't aware but you may self order a cortisol salivary x4 to determine how the adrenal gland is functioning. Low adrenal function is caused by stressors over time or acute stresses and it's very common in this day and age (esp if you crossfit, do ketosis or do intermittent fasting or are sleep deprived or 'stressed' to any degree). ZRT offers the cortisol x4. Low cortisol can cause low thyroid, insulin resistance and high TG/low HDL patterns. It happens in both skinny and fat folks... no one is immune.

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Yes 12+ hour fast. – berger6696 Nov 10 2011 at 13:03
1 
 Thanks for confirming. You mentioned not gaining lean mass, correct? This is highly suggestive of leaky gut -- nutrients are not being effectively broken down for assimilation, absorption and growth. Read Robb Wolf. Have you read the Paleolithic Solution yet? However ignore the saturated fat and LDL goals. I talked to Robb and gave him sh*t, and this is entirely inconsistent with him, his talks, his blog, his philosophy. – grace Nov 11 2011 at 8:24
Thanks grace. I've been on his Robb Wolfs website, but haven't read his book yet. As far as gaining mass, I thought about this quite a bit last night. I have lost weight in the last 6 months. I've gone from a size 30 or 31 waist to 28's fitting loose. My wedding ring nearly falls off my finger. I've lost about 10 lbs over this time. One possibility I'm beginning to consider is that maybe I've lost significant fat (15-20 lbs?) and have put on 5-10 lbs of muscle. Not sure how to verify this. But this would go with Dr Davis suggesting lipids do not stabilize until weight does. – berger6696 Nov 11 2011 at 13:01
"However ignore the saturated fat and LDL goals. I talked to Robb and gave him sh*t, and this is entirely inconsistent with him, his talks, his blog, his philosophy" What do you mean by this? – berger6696 Nov 11 2011 at 13:02
I think a Tsp of honey is 5g carbs, tbsp is 15g. I eat about 1/4-1/2 cup of berries so maybe another 5ish. Wait, are you talking about calories or carbs? – berger6696 Nov 11 2011 at 13:06
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You could try a little coconut oil and a little less dairy.

EDIT:

Milk will spike insulin as if you ate sugar. LDL bathed in insulin become vLDL. Not good. Coconut should raise HDL.

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1 
 Thanks Eric. I dont drink much (if any) milk and the cream I put in my coffee does not spike my BG. I confirmed this with a BG meter a few times. – berger6696 Nov 10 2011 at 19:54
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I dont want this to get buried in a reply (that was cut short) so tell me what you think of this.

I have lost weight in the last 6 months. I've gone from a size 30" pants to 28" pants fitting loose. My wedding ring nearly falls off my finger. I've lost about 10-15 lbs over this time. One possibility I'm beginning to consider is that maybe I've lost significant fat (15-20 lbs?) and have put on 5-10 lbs of muscle. While losing 10lbs is probably not considered "significant" losing 20lbs of fat might be. I would have started eating paleo in the 145-150lb range. I seem to have hit a bottom in the last week or so around 136.

This answer would seem to make sense of all the suggestions below, and maybe explain Kronks situation as well.

Thoughts?

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I think if u rbhaving body fat recompositiong, then, the labs are unreliable during the transition until stabilized. Thanks for the update. Kronk I believe is a different story in that he reported no BF changes and contrasting with ur diet, a signif higher carb diet 150 grams daily for an apparently stable period of time. the important characteristic I believe however that both of u two share is that both you two have signif inflammatory conditions in ur respective family trees which extrapolates the risks IMHO (Jack, cancer and silent heart disease). Do u have a Tanita scale for body fat? – grace Nov 11 2011 at 15:28
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 It is not super accurate but it can approx the lean mass gains if u can not fathom the improvements. I dont't VAPs because they do not tell much unless things are way WAY off. Hormone panels and DNA stool analyses are far more accurate bioindicators for modern Wastern Civ diseases in my personal experience. I've seen hundred of VAPs with Dr Davis and he fails to clue into gut issues and hormone optimization (dhea, progesterone, estrogen dominance, cortiosol, adrenal hypothalamus, etc) and root causes. There is no pharmaceutical for leaky gut or the hormones in 98% of cases FYI. – grace Nov 11 2011 at 15:34
There is no PILL for apo E4. It's a genetic legacy and just another trait for surviving under different (non-modern) times. Studies confirm it is a risk factor in modern times concerning dental amalgams, aluminum, high carb/GI diets, and lack of exercise. – grace Nov 11 2011 at 15:37
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 omron makes some good and some bad devices. this one looks ok but the range it can measure is 5-50% BF and like any lab or device the error range is probably ~20% and worse at the extremes of the ranges. u are so THIN omg. The current BF u reported is at the extreme so the device may not be that reliable. – grace Nov 11 2011 at 23:19
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 travis, cortisol causes leakyngut. so do antibiotics which kill off good protective flora. lectins like in many grains, beans, and gmo food crops cause leaky gut. there is ~20% lab error possible. the labs berger6696 reports are meaningless for several reasons. – grace Nov 12 2011 at 0:40
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Homework for you Berger6696:

  • Read paleo soln by Robb Wolf.
  • Watch AHS presentations by both Mathieu Lalonde and Robb Wolf. Leaky gut exists despite what Ignorant CW purport.... please fast forward to the 21st century of science.
  • Read the 'leaky gut' and 'gut brain' tagged PH relevant posts and the info, resouces and ideas. They are treasures. A lot of peeps at PH have overcome leaky gut to resolve their respective health condition, what ever the condition was, no matter how severe! PH is awesome!
  • Do not fret.
  • Time heals. UR on the right track and I see few reasons u would not reach ur health goals. (btw, i believe Dex cares a ton; I think few give their time and thoughts as stellar as Dexter's.)
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Consider it done. I'm almost finished with PB then I'll hit up paleo soln. Hopefully it has an audio version. I'm a slow reader. I am going to catch up on leaky gut. I'm chillin. And no doubt I've hit a gold mine here with an unbelievable amount of info that can be very overwhelming. I know I came off a little snappy at dex but I really didn't mean anything by it. ALL advice given here is more appreciated than I can express. Do you still think E4 is in play or am I strictly dealing with leaky gut here? I'm kinda confused on how I should proceed with my diet. – berger6696 Nov 11 2011 at 23:55
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 you do not exhibit skynhigh LDLs like Kronk or Culp. You may have one allelle because u have a family history somewhat rampant for heart disease and the LDL is not < 100. when u r healthier and off the statin, the LDL will be higher but still it probably will not go as high as Kronk's. – grace Nov 12 2011 at 0:43
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 I love Robb. he is easier to read than PB! both Sisson and Robb kill me with their humour!! Robb's book also has pictures ;) – grace Nov 12 2011 at 0:45
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 are you avoiding ketosis? too much ketosis, fasting, or skipping meals stress out the adrenal glands which will pump out more cortisol and cause more insulinresistance. basically u don't want excessive cortisol which as Robb says 'cockblocks' muscle gain and fat loss (not that u need to worry about BF!!). – grace Nov 12 2011 at 0:49
I got some good muscle and in winter I am Mr Ketone. LOL. – The Quilt Nov 12 2011 at 4:36
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Just wanted to put this up here to those who asked. My cardio CRP (which from what I can tell is the same thing as hsCRP) is 0.93 on the VAP test in the OP. Is this a pretty good drop from the 1.2 in August? does this change the leaky gut rx?

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For an average person eating SAD, that's a good number. For someone doing Paleo, that has to be lower. Under 0.5 is representative for your diet and exercise. Member when Gary Taubes tested and his was like .75. People were saying, that's elevated for somone doing low carb. Well, Gary isn't gluten or dairy free (like I'm) -- perhaps it's low-grade inflammation that wheat promotes ... a la Track Your Plaque. Mine is <0.3 everytime I test. And I have an autoimmune disease and T2 diabetes. I eat 150g carbs but I'm gluten/dairy/nightshade/ and egg-free. – Namby Pamby Nov 15 2011 at 0:03
I'm not saying you have to be nightshade or egg-free. Or even dairy- or gluten-free. My CRP was <0.3 even when I was eating low-carb lavash and bread. Just examine the autoimmune and hypothyroid angle, like mentioned above. Follow up with an ANA and a hypothyroid panel, including antibody tests for Hashimoto's and Grave's. – Namby Pamby Nov 15 2011 at 0:05
Berger, did you btw look at your past records and see if your BUN and creatine were elevated? That could have a bearing, too, combined with your low homocysteine. I'd think ensuring that your kidneys are healthy is the first order of bidness, rather than CRP. – Namby Pamby Nov 15 2011 at 0:53
I dont think they were, but I will check this when I get home. I dont have that info with me. – berger6696 Nov 15 2011 at 14:20
Aug07 Bun18 Cr1.1 Aug09 B10 C0.9 Mar11 B24 C1.3 Aug11 B21 C1.2 Nov11 B23 C1.1 – berger6696 Nov 16 2011 at 1:29
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