Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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See "Is phytate really a problem?" by Lucas Tafur:

http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/10/is-phytate-really-problem.html

"The dangers of phytic acid have been overestimated. Contrary to popular the paleo belief, phytic acid might be beneficial in small doses and might have anticancer effects. As seen with gluten degradation by Rothia species, the phytase activity present in some exclusive human Bifidobacteria shows that adaptation to wheat/grains is indeed happening. Once again, the microbiota plays a dominant role.

"From epidemiological data, foods with high phytate content are not associated with increased risks for several chronic diseases. As association doesnt means causation, we cannot conclude that whole-grains are healthy but we cant also conclude that whole-grains are unhealthy. With the increasing attention to paleolithic and similar diets, it is of utmost importance that all evidence is critically analyzed and reviewed. Making unsupported statements and cherry-picking data would only cause rejection by scientists. Dogma is not good in science (or in anything else, for that matter)."

Gads, I hate to even bring this up and add more to the general confusion, but I would appreciate your thoughts (especially the thoughts that are well backed up).

Edit:

Thought I would add this, since many of you will not click on the link and read the whole thing (I recommend the comments, especially the exchange between our very own Travis and Lucas).

"I dont recommend whole-grains and legumes because there are foods more nutritious, as well as because whole-grains and legumes are very high in carbohydrates. The potential benefits of phytate can be obtained by eating other phytate rich foods, such as nuts and cocoa; as well as soluble fiber and oligosaccharides as the main dietary fiber type. The problem with high levels of phytate is only relevant when the diet is deficient in micronutrients and essential food sources. Finally, maintaining a proper gut flora is essential for phytic acid metabolism and adequate mineral absorption."

edited Nov 29 2011 at 18:38

asked Nov 29 2011 at 17:57

Dave S.
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I agree about the comments. They are actually the best part and I must say this guy is trying to be very logical. At the end, when he talked about oral and gut flora and the effects of antibiotics he gained much more of my attention. – Nance Nov 29 2011 at 18:58

Lucas Tafur · Accepted Answer · 2011-11-30 01:11:32Z UTC

raydawg said:

Since we know that grains such as wheat cause leaky gut and therefore autoimmune issues, the statement that "but we cant also conclude that whole-grains are unhealthy" is clearly incorrect.

This theory is too simplistic to explain the overall evidence. There is a tendency to discard studies which contradict the common dogma (grains are evil) and support studies which support the dogma. This happens in nearly every science field. In the paleosphere, epidemiological studies are seen as useless. This is completely wrong. Epidemiology doesnt tell us causation, but gives us facts that should be addressed directly.

If grains were in fact, the main root of all evil, we should expect to see increased risk of inflammatory diseases in people eating more grains. The same for autoimmune diseases. Epidemiological data suggests that there is no increased risk, and sometimes, there is even lower risk of certain diseases. There is in fact, many people who eat a heavy grain diet and are healthy. Many people have no problems digesting grains and show no signs of intestinal damage.

Certainly, grains are problematic. But this is mostly because of inflammation. In an inflammatory condition, grains aggraviate the problem. In the absence of chronic inflammation, a small amount of grains is perfectly fine, but should not be the base of the diet. Compared to animal foods, grains are nutritionally poor.

Paleo2.0 · Answer 2 · 2011-11-29 18:49:58Z UTC

To a certain degree, phytates (and lectins) are just rationalizations of why grains are bad. The thing is, nuts are high in phytates, and even some seafood has lectins. We don’t really know why grains have correlated with poorer health, but we have come up with various potential mechanisms. Some people focus on the proteins like gluten.

I don’t think it is ever been clear to what degree phytates and lectins affect health outcomes; most of the talk has been about specific potential mechanisms, not overall outcomes.

Also, according to Dr. Harris's terminology, wheat is a NAD, but not phytic acid or even all grains, so to some degree phytates were never really that big of an issue to begin with.

I think in actually applying the Paleo principle and in picking foods to eat it might be better to look at the whole food.

Matt · Answer 3 · 2011-11-29 19:15:10Z UTC

A lot of things in the paleo movement make sense initially, but then when you take a closer look or try to get the big picture, it seems that what we initially thought and supported is less and less certain. Low carbohydrate paleo is one. I think phytates and other anti-nutrients are going to be next.

raydawg · Answer 4 · 2011-11-29 18:10:54Z UTC

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I suppose phytates are wonderful if you're overdosing on magnesium, potassium, etc. :) Other than that... I highly doubt it. In terms of "small doses," if you eat nuts/seeds, they contain phytates also.

Since we know that grains such as wheat cause leaky gut and therefore autoimmune issues, the statement that "but we cant also conclude that whole-grains are unhealthy" is clearly incorrect.

answered Nov 29 2011 at 18:10

raydawg
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I would ask that you look at this post as well: lucastafur.com/2011/10/rothia-to-rescue.html He is suggesting that if your oral and gut bacteria are working properly both gluten/gliadin and phytate are broken down and do not cause problems. – Dave S. Nov 29 2011 at 18:36

I saw that, Dave, and it does provoke thought. I can blame my gut! It's not my fault! :-)) – Nance Nov 29 2011 at 18:55

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I don't know if I buy the whole phytates don't matter because we have gut microbes break phytates down liberating bound metals. This breakdown has to occur in a segment of our GI tract prior to the segment where mineral absorption takes place. Unfortunately most beneficial gut bacteria are found too far into the GI tract and beyond the regions where we can absorb nutrients they produce. – Matt Nov 29 2011 at 20:39

Nance · Answer 5 · 2011-11-29 18:47:22Z UTC

This question provokes a range of emotions for me. I applaud your courage for asking this question!

There's the wistful longing for having eggs on toast again, my favorite breakfast since I was a toddler.

There's the shudder from the last time I ate foods that included wheat and got SO sick--if it wasn't the wheat, what was it? It wasn't the sugar because my BG is fine.

It will take a lot of evidence plus clarification of why I have problems before I gather enough nerve to try again.

EDIT: I will concede it's plausible that I can't tolerate wheat because I have the wrong gut flora; I'm not saying it's true, just plausible.

Are phytates/phytic acid no longer an issue?

5 Answers