Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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The LA Times Health section (well, yeah) ran an article this morning about the theory that today's obesity epidemic originated in the eating and other habits of women in the 50s and 60s. It attributes the problem to epigenetic changes caused by the pre-natal and natal environment.

Now, epigenetic effects are real, so this isn't inherently impossible. Questions, though:

If obesity and related problems can be substantially reduced or eliminated by eliminating "neolithic agents of disease", wouldn't that undercut the epigenetic theory? Or does it just mean both might be true?
Anybody know of any studies on the epigenetic consequences of ancestral diets?

The Times article is here.

flag	asked Dec 19 2011 at 17:56 Mark Field 226●1●2●4

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This is an absolutely awesome question! It would solve many problems if we could get to the bottom of this. However, there's still questions about the introduction of trans fats, carb loading/low fat, and HFCS in the 80's and 90's that still may have an effect. – raydawg Dec 20 2011 at 19:44

The Loon · Answer 1 · 2011-12-19 21:32:10Z UTC

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I think that by asking this question, you have just put Dr. Harris and Dr. Kruse in the ring together again, and it appears as if Dr. Kruse is winning. It looks like that in addition to saving the world through optimization, Dr. Kruse also purchased the Times. Maybe someone here might want to ask a new question: What is wrong with the Times?

answered Dec 19 2011 at 21:32

The Loon
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The Loon - can you clarify what you believe Dr H's position is on this? Thanks – Aravind Dec 19 2011 at 23:22

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Both would probably agree that many of our problems are due to NAD's, but Dr. Harris believes that if you simply remove the NAD's, all will be well. Dr. Kruse believes that you need to reset epigenetic switches. – The Loon Dec 20 2011 at 0:51

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His focus is clearly different than mine. You'd have to ask him about his position on this. Mine are different for the young, middle aged, and those interesting in longevity. I have yet to reveal why but in 2012 I will. If you believe all starches are safe all of the times of your life your beliefs are not supported at all by the aging research over the last thirty years. This is an area that this community does not swim because it is dominated by 20-40 yr olds. I think rosedale has hit on this esoterically in his response to Jaminet. But he never really gave the guts of why. – The Quilt Dec 20 2011 at 1:36

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I just knew that 2012 was going to be a big year...en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon – Kamal♦ Dec 20 2011 at 16:52

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Loon- I suspect that Kurt Harris doesn't want to be in this ring. But I am highly highly anticipating the AHS12 safe starch roundtable with Quilt, Jaminet, Dr. Cate, and Rosedale. Diabetes, obesity, longevity, rice...GO! – Kamal♦ Dec 20 2011 at 16:58

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Isa Palstek · Answer 2 · 2011-12-19 23:07:15Z UTC

You asked for "studies on the epigenetic consequences of ancestral diets". I had a story from the Netherlands in my mind about the hungerwinter of WW II and pregnant women. I did a quick search and post a link for "Leiden University": http://www.news.leiden.edu/news/dutch-hunger-winter.html I hope that this link will be helpful for you and your questions. I think you will find several publications dealing with this hungerwinter and its genetic implications. http://www.pnas.org/content/105/44/17046.long http://epigenome.eu/en/2,9,0

Matt · Answer 3 · 2011-12-20 16:47:03Z UTC

This is not a either or question.

Epigenetic changes due to fetal programming is not a unlikely factor.

However in a similar way to your genes, epigenetic changes are likely to increase risk rather than determine outcomes.

If epigenetic changes raise your risk of becoming obese from 5 % to 30% this still does not determine that you will become obese. What determines the outcome is still likely to be the environment you grow up in and live in.

Dave S. · Answer 4 · 2011-12-19 18:32:35Z UTC

Well, eliminating NADS help many people overcome obesity, there are plenty of people that still remain overweight. Just look at how many questions on PaleoHacks are along the lines of "Help! Not losing weight."

As far as the epigentic effects of not gaining enough weight during pregnancy, that seems quite plausible. I wonder what effect the smoking recommendation had - In my mind that would be much worse.

None of my grandparents were overweight. Both of my parents were. All of my siblings (5 of them) struggle with weight (mostly losing the battle). My parents were both born within 1 year of 1920. Both smoked heavily (cigarrettes as opposed to Granpa's pipe) and drank coffee constantly. They were exposed to increasing amounts of sugar, flour and margarine/Crisco. Lastly, it was in fashion to bottle feed as only poor folks had to breast feed.

I think all of these contributed massively. But maybe I have paleo blinders on. Teasing out what caused what is fairly impossible with all those confounders (and more that I am not thinking of - toxins anyone?).

And sorry, no - I have nothing to address your second request.

Paul Whiteley · Answer 5 · 2011-12-19 21:19:28Z UTC

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I don't know if this is an answer to your questions but a few things might be relevant. The science of epigenetics is a rising star as exemplified by this article in Time magazine last year (which discusses diet and its epigenetic effects) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952313,00.html Some of the work which can broadly be headed under the 'Barker hypothesis' on maternal diets during famine might also be relevant: http://questioning-answers.blogspot.com/2011/08/barker-hypothesis-and-thin-fat-bodies.html

answered Dec 19 2011 at 21:19

Paul Whiteley
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The Barker hypothesis (thanks) is interesting, though it doesn't reach the issue of ancestral diets (at least not directly from what I read at the link). While I hate to pile on speculation, epigenetics might explain (1) why some people find it so damn hard to lose weight; and (2) why we see such a broad range of differences in things like low carb/high carb. – Mark Field Dec 19 2011 at 21:38

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The ancestral issue was also covered a bit by Dr. Albrecht, who studies the relationship between soil quality, feed quality and animal health during stress. – The Loon Dec 20 2011 at 0:53

miked · Answer 6 · 2011-12-19 23:21:53Z UTC

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I wrote up a "simple" explanation of this for someone a while ago. It covers the "big picture" view of it. Check out the bottom of this post: https://sites.google.com/site/themikelinks/home/what-s-up-with-insulin-resistance

answered Dec 19 2011 at 23:21

miked
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Epigenetics and Paleo

6 Answers