The Drama Llama has arrived on the paleo scene in the past few months, starting with Gary Taubes vs Stephan Guyenet.

I can see Robb's point, and I can see the opposite point equally well. Of course there are going to be dumb questions. Is bubble gum paleo? Will cod liver oil save my relationship? But that is to be expected.

There are 3,815 users on paleohacks. Almost 11,000 questions have been asked. Will each new question be awesomely mind-blowing? Probably not. But as paleo becomes more and more popular due to people like Robb, Mark Sisson, and even a couple of the folks who've posted on paleohacks (I'm looking at you Paul Jaminet, Cate Shanahan, Chris Masterjohn, and a few others), more new people arrive and ask questions. Sometimes I'll read a question and think that I'm too cool for school, being all seasoned and shit (but not really, since eating "paleo" is ironically quite a new concept in the US). So it's nice to help new people out, as the above mentioned people do with their books, services, blogs, etc.

Not to mention the fact that some really really awesome information has been laid down among the morass of posts on paleohacks. This is just a sliver that I thought of off-hand...

Kurt Harris and Melissa HGL provide some interesting views on the coconut
A great compilation of anti-paleo arguments, and another one.
Travis Culp on Zinc, K2, and cavities.
Lots of back and forth about safe starches round 1 and round 2.
Paul Jaminet on heart attacks and dietary saturated fat needs.
Tons of stuff about caffeine.
Low carb diets and thyroid
Chris Masterjohn, Dr. Kruse, and Dr. Rosedale on dietary approaches and blood sugar

So sure, some people will sift through and find things they want to read, some people are too busy or annoyed, etc. But there is so much dang content on this site. If someone was brand new to paleo, I'd point them to Robb/Sisson/Kresser/Jaminet and have them read a concise list or two. But when they get curious, there aren't that many places with a greater collection of information than paleohacks. And where else can you go to get a nearly instant response from strangers on the internet about your random-ass paleo question?

I think he's partly right. There's some dodgy stuff that goes on around here sometimes. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of great information and opinions here but there's a lot of junk and negativity also. There it's also the issue of sheer volume - there's a freaking heap of posts on ph, you practically need 4 hours a day sometimes to keep up with all the answers and comments.

Robb is entitled to his thoughts and opinions, and I don't think he was bashing, I think it sounded more like joking.

So, here is my take on this: During the frackas a few days ago about the feminist/paleo/Movnat schtick. Lindsay commented that the woman was partially correct, that paleo did have a number of misogynists. I was shocked and asked her "where" and "who" and she said "paleo hacks." Apparently some guys were saying something to the effect that if women could not breast feed they should not reproduce.

They were apparently serious. This type of stuff is apparently a not-infrequent occurrence.

This prompted my admonition to Lindsay, and now we find ourselves here.

Now I'm going to make an apology and then I'm going to piss some people off, warm up your tar, fluff your feathers.

Apology: It was bad for me to say what I said. I am perturbed by this place at times, in no small part because of the potential lost (IN my opinion) which I will ge to in a moment. Whatever my reservations are of anyone in this community however, we are generally stronger and better when not snipping at each other. I was pissed at the ridiculous feminist piece AND that PH was of sufficiently questionable content to cause Lindsay to consider it a misogynist holdout. the combo just buggared me, but that's no excuse for saying what I said.

Please check out the following:

This was early in the PH incarnation and I was EXCITED. I was familiar with the stack-overflow type of Q&A and I knew that it was popular amongst programmers as it allowed for the potential of some kind of binary information processing, yes/no answers that would allow the cream to rise to the top, especially when coupled with the social badging aspects of crowd voting. Cool. I watched, and some cool stuff was brewing, I got busy did not check back for a time but when I did I was kinda horrified. The first thing I remember finding was a thread on killing and eating a squirrel, drinking the blood and other goodies. I guess I'm one to talk after the I-caveman thing but I was thinking "what if one of my clients finds this place, or if I post here tracks my name to it?" How am I going to convince this diabetic mother of two that paleo is sane with stuff like this being the soup d'jour? Now, you may be thinking that I'm just being hysterical and not getting the full vibe of the place. Well, my first misgiving was not my own, it came from Patrick:

So here's how things stand from my side of the campfire: 1- I fucked up saying anything. Bad on me. 2-Lindsay thinks a not insignificant misogynist element calls this place home. 3-A fair number of folks I respect chimed in with similar thoughts. 4-Patrick, the PH FOUNDER, expressed QA/QC concerns 18 months ago.

The back and forth about "there is still a lot of good: people, articles etc." reminds me of the decline of the CrossFit message board. PH seems to have some issues, or perhaps, me Lindsay, the founder and several other people are wrong. Whether that is accurate is for y'all to decide, I just wanted my full accounting here. If I could make one suggestion: I'd make it mandatory that people operate with real identities, that you verify those identifies in some way. People are pretty bold and prone to outrageous behavior when they are operating anonymously.

I'll take a stab at this -- here's hoping I don't regret this.

WRT Robb Wolf -- I don't know him well, but have spoken on the phone once or twice and emailed a few times. I have recommended his books and blog numerous times. (My mom especially liked his book.)

He kindly had Cate Shanahan guest-post a blog post on iron in infant formulas that Cate researched & wrote at my urging.

See here: http://robbwolf.com/2011/12/20/iron-fortified-infant-cereal-a-formula-for-health-problems/

Robb has always come across as both a stand-up & very smart guy, so I very openly say that I was disappointed that he is not a fan of PaleoHacks.

C'est la vie.

I have asked him for concrete suggestions as to how he would make things better at PaleoHacks -- at the time of this writing, haven't heard much other than he will try to spend some more time here. <--- which would be great as I welcome smart & talented people of Robb's ilk.

Onto PaleoHacks....

One has to accept that PaleoHacks is simultaneously an awesome and not-so-awesome place.

First, The Awesome:

I have been in awe at some of the much more intelligent & informed people than I on PH sharing their interpretations vis-a-vis a paleo paradigm of the various data available to us. Personally, I have learned much & try to keep an open mind. Watching people's & the community's view(s) evolve over time has been especially fascinating.

Thank you for your participation. Keep on keepin' on. You all make PaleoHacks awesome and I am grateful.

Now, The Not-So-Awesome:

There are a few nutcases amongst you. I don't know why this is -- this could be the nature of the internet or something about Paleo brings out the nutjobs. I have expressed my concerns about you privately in emails to some of the Paleo leaders and others -- as I have publicly:

from http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=48c5aee421576df1d6f5c8e45&id=9135210d47

(the now emergent gratuitous Paleo re-enactment fetishists must be starved of attention as well as their snake-oil selling jump-on-the-Paleo-bandwagon-brethren)

Let me make clear: my definition of nutjob has nothing to do with your interpretation of Paleo be it Sissonian, Wolfian, Taubesian, Harrisian or Nikoleyian than it has to do with your behavior and how you frame your arguments.

Those of you who have flagrantly broken the community rules I tend to find & suspend or delete. There are some that flirt at the edge of the rules and the only reason I don't delete them is that I don't want to delete anyone b/c of ideology.

Believe you me -- there are many people whose POVs I think are flat out wrong, but I would not delete because their behavior doesn't merit it.

My hope, and this may be a very naive hope, is that the PaleoHacks community "punishes" both bad behavior and stupidity.

Random thought: What I find interesting about PaleoHacks, as an experiment in crowdsourcing, is that it may threaten the Paleo gurus' influence -- but then, see how I feel about Paleo gurus here:

http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=48c5aee421576df1d6f5c8e45&id=7740a2bd8f

Last thought:

Net-net I think PaleoHacks is a massive force for good, and the awesome FAAARRRR outweighs the not-so-awesome. Thanks again for being a part of this.

NB: My mods and I do our very best to moderate fairly. I am sure if we have dinged you, deleted you or suspended you -- you probably feel that I am big, massive jerk. Which I probably am.

Ha! Lurker!!! How does he know what goes on here at PH??! I'll bet you a filet mignon that ALL of the paleo biggies lurk at PH.

What I know of Robb Wolf is that he is a decent, kind and humble man. Paleo babby jesus perhaps but still a very human man. I think his recent actions show a huge lapse in judgment and he owes Patrik an apology. In starting and growing this site Patrik has earned the right to be shown respect and I don't blame him to being hurt and angry and calling Robb out on it. (I hate to admit this but I especially loved the slam on G2C. Classic!)

It's been a rough couple of days in the paleoshere but I'm excited to see the fruits that come from the recent discord. From trouble times can come great things and I believe that is what will happen. I am thrilled to hear Robb commit to spending more time here. We are already lucky to have several "distinguished" members active in this community and the more they participate the better IMO. I am always thrilled to read answers and comments from Paul Jaminet, Ron Rosedale, Dr. Cate, Masterjohn, and Evelyn (who I disagree with most vehemently but I appreciate her bravery in standing her ground even while being pummeled) and many others who pop in from time to time. I wish they would do it more frequently. It might be interesting to find out why they don't (if there is a reason) so that the site could become a more hospitable place for them?

The site has been a bit bogged down in the past few months with somewhat inane questions and answers that seem to come from a few with nothing better to do with their time. Non-answer answers I would call them. We definitely have our share of rep point whores and I think they've added to the decline of the quality of the site which lead to this outburst of criticism. I feel like I'm on MDA sometimes (which is not to slam that site at all but it is decidedly different in function than this one.) At any rate, this criticism can be put to good use (on both sides of the rift) and as long as people don't dig in their heels and live in their angry place I feel certain it will be.

I saw the Twittering going back and forth, and had a few thoughts. The first of which was I get where they're coming from, and they deserve to blow off some steam.

The second was, "Yeah, well PH is made up of those who participate. So if you don't participate, then do you get to complain?" You know. The usual democracy/no-voting-no-whinging rule.

The third was that these were prominent Paleo folks, and as a plebeian, it made me feel a bit looked down upon. Like, who are they coaching to greatness if not those of us in the great, unwashed masses? It seemed like a bit of bad PR.

But I also think that hacking is what they do professionally all day long, and I certainly wouldn't expect them to waste their spare time here.

I have a lot of respect for Robb and all that he does in the community. Like anywhere else on the internet the surfer has to use some power of discrimination when looking for answers.

Aside from PH, I don't think there are very many other places with the sheer volume of links to scientific studies, or contrasting views on opinion-based answers.

Fish oil, for example, was something that Robb suggested taking extremely high doses of, and has since backed off on those recommendations. On here, there were people that brought up the possible downsides of too many PUFAs back when the other people were taking 5-10g/day.

I liked how one person said something about how they never go here anymore. I checked- they do come here pretty regularly :)

Otherwise, who cares? I mean, crowdsourcing has quality issues and we all know that. If you are offended by stuff easily, crowd-sourced sites are not for you.

Put yourself in Robb's shoes for a moment..

(hmm.. quite roomy in here, and I already have big goddamn feet)

now, for a moment more, assume that, by magic, there were no nutcases on PH - varying opinions of course, but everyone able to express those opinions and have them changed in civil discourse..

(aaah, that's better, I could get used to this)

Now, as Robb, how do you answer a question without either:

• totally dominating other answers just because of the name, to the detriment of other valuable contributions and essentially defeating the purpose of growing a community
• causing threads to explode with inordinate amounts of discussion and analysis and minutiae

Not saying it can't be done, but I can't blame him for some trepidation about damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't, even in such an idealised world.

Ok, moment over.

(aw, i was enjoying that!)

Hidden in here is a legitimate meta question for PH as to how it would meaningfully handle rational discourse with a 'superstar' who would quickly (and deservedly) earn essentially unlimited rep with active participation, whether Robb or any other. Perhaps we may get the chance to find out.

I'll humbly chime in with a PH newbie's reflection. I found PH because when one googles almost anything paleo, it rises close to the top in the search results. I treated the information I found here with the same caution I do with any information source.

I think it's important to recognize that, for instance, the growing number of paleo-related podcasts, just like the books and articles, are highly curated (if dreadfully engineered) products: they take write-in questions only, and have their answers researched and planned before the shows are even recorded--this is often obvious in their banter. This is quite different from participating in real time. They have a disincentive to participate here, in that giving anything less than a thoroughly researched and supported response could have an impact on their professional reputations and possibly their incomes. Their every comment will apppear in someone's Google search for who knows how long. I would probably shy away too.

PH is curated as well, after a fashion. I soon understood that a voting system was in place, and for better and worse, this influences what I read here. The truly awful/marginal questions/answers (apologies if any of these are mine) seem to drop off pretty fast, and once you get the hang of things, it starts to get pretty easy to distinguish the wheat from the chaff, if you'll pardon the expression. Increasingly, I find myself searching rather than hanging on the main page looking for new discussions--it's easier to find the really good info that way, after the community here has taken a generally decent stab at curating the material.

As a newbie, I appreciate the concerns articulated here by the much more seasoned PH folks. But I don't think this excellent resource is broken, nor its value compromised by a few possibly disparaging remarks from a few paleo luminaries. I go to their websites, listen to their podcasts, and read their books already--I'm not necessarily looking for even more from them. They represent a handful of usually reasonably well-researched and substantiated opinions, but they are also just a handful, so I can't expect everything they say or write to speak directly to me. Sometimes I need clarification, or advise on how to implement something, or just a more varied point of view. It's a lot easier to get that here, than from that small handful of paleo luminaries.

Finally, I've participated in many forums over many years now, and it's easy to recognize this pattern where the seasoned veterans begin to either chafe under the burden of managing the constant influx of newbies and their ignorance, or the desire to have the resource itself rise with them, in terms of its quality or authoritativeness. But this of course is impossible in an open forum. I thought Metafilter did a reasonable job with this, in the hoops one had to go through, and the limitations imposed on how often one could post. These measures keep the forum open, but also make users much more thoughtful about if and when to post.

I haven't quite figured out to what extent similar measures are already in use here, but as a new uer, I would not object to stricter limits to my participation until some condition was met. I would even pay a modest fee ("donation") to gain privileges like posting. This alone weeds out a lot of undesirable material, in my estimation. I know others might reasonably disagree with me on that, and wouldn't be surprised if such ideas have been considered, and perhaps dismissed, but I throw it out there, for what little it may be worth.

I agree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I understand tired, I understand overwhelmed, I understand frustrated.. sometimes things break. But you also don't want to bite the hand that feeds you, so being thoughtful about anything - be it written or verbal - is a very important factor. If anything from a pioneer or supporter is disparaging, the momentum for growth stalls. The Paleoleos are still new enough that people definitely categorize the lifestyle into something along the lines of daywalking gingers. South Park anyone? Basically, whackadoos who run barefoot and eat branches with a side of something raw.

There most definitely has been a shift in PH since I joined over.. summer? Note: I found by searching le interwebs for who Paleo knows what. The moderators do such a good job, please note that they have a life outside of PH, but yes.. things filter through that I've seen eleven-seventy times. Instead of the Search field being used, duplicate or near duplicate posts are creating, which I feel dilutes the knowledge pool. Instead of answering to something existing, perhaps growing that threat and enriching it, now there's another thing to search through. Replies that have no content - why reply if you're not going to be thoughtful? And yes I can see how a post asking to Hack my Curly Eyebrow Hair or Why is a hair growing out of my mole? would make anyone think its a tad crazytown. Google is your friend.

There is an insanely huge amount of talent that frequent PH, you know who you are, and it makes me very happy that I am learning, and entertained, by these people. I don't want to lose that.

I think everyone needs to forget what happened, seriously - what's done is done, and all the players involved have learned a valuable lesson that they will do nothing but grow from.

Be kind, rewind ya'll.

@Beth-WM and @Dave S and others, I enjoy PH and its format so much I drop in several times per day to see what's up. I used to love to jump into some of the spirited discussions but it seems a little slow right now although there's plenty of lively debated around re: the Trap article.

That said, some of the recent questions deserve criticism in my opinion. There are some questions that don't seem to reflect any awareness of the FAQs. They ask about things that have nothing to do with this lifestyle or the questions just seem political or divisive, designed either to criticize members of the paleo community or the lifestyle itself.

I think it's fine to disagree on the best approach, or ask questions about the practical implementations of various suggestions; that just shows an independent mind. There are so many possibilities that we should never run out of things to explore and form opinions about.

But if people just want to attack others for their opinions, or style of presentation, that will shut down the creativity of discussions. And if some want to be handed perfect answers without effort on their part, especially if they don't want to give and take about various options and rationales, then it becomes an empty exercise in giving pat answers. And those who want more than that will drift away or visit less frequently. In that event the black hole comment Robb made wouldn't be all that wrong.

The better question to me is why are his tweets linked on PH's front page? Is the idea to incite drama? To get the PH community to lash out against Robb's opinions?

The reaction seems pretty childish to me. Your prized website was criticized, Patrick. Big deal.

I think he's entitled to his opinion and Patrik reacted with his usual ad hominem emotionality. ( I was not real keen on the drinking koolaid comment.)

This is a web-site. It's not a PR platform. It's not a networking mecca. Sometimes I think people want it to be more.

I have loved this site--I learn a ton being on it but the self-indulgent under-tones and ego wear on me. While at the same time I'm really grateful, I sometimes feel like saying..."get over yourselves and deal with it."

Somebody posed a criticism. That's life.

Robb Who?

I Like being a I hole. Its a new badge I can wear in my pursuit of obnoxiousness.

who cares?

..........here are some dots because I have to type 15 characters.

The information here varies widely in it's quality. But the general consensus way in which PH works (voting/reputation) helps to bring the smarter viewpoints to the top. We can still make the errors of "paleo conventional wisdom", however. If you want really good info, you have to look at research yourself, rather than asking here. But if you need a good recipe for wings, well just ask.

I was actually part of the twitter discussion [@BarbarianOgre]. I talked to Patrik a bit about it, and realized that maybe it's just time to bring it out in the open. It's not like I'm Robb Wolf or anything. Just a casual bystander with an opinion :)

My take on it (and I'm seeing some agreement on this thread in different ways) is that the discussions over the last couple months have changed. I admit the crossfit threads always seem to push my buttons. But maybe that's just me? I swear that we seem a bit more casual about the stupidity over the last couple months.

Maybe it's just the fact that after US News and world reports, AHS and such that we have so many new people that the whole idea of paleohacks is changing.

I admit, it's not like the regular paleo blogosphere is innocent of any of this.It seems like all I see over is drama drama drama over different sorts of carbs and such.

Not to mention the whole vegetarian thing. While the thread is a lot calmer than I remember, I still don't think we're respectful to our neighbors. Or at times, even people who are part of the community.

http://paleohacks.com/questions/51442/compassionate-paleo/51508#51508

http://paleohacks.com/questions/56799/mingers-talk-why-cant-we-all-get-along-similarities-between-veggies-and-paleo#axzz1j3ucyZyB

I'm sorry if this is all my imagination. That we, are, in fact, a community working towards something better. I would hope that we could see paleo become common knowledge and that we (paleohacks) would be a supportive community in that process of growing.

So my resolution? To be less of a complainer, and spend time here making sure I help in creating this community.

I count myself among those who:

1. Have never met or corresponded with Robb Wolf.

2. Could not care less what Robb Wolf thinks about what appears at PH.

3. Do not have any problem with Robb Tweeting his opinions about PH.

4. Do not consider Robb Wolf "family" simply because I find his book remarkably good and his work overall to be a force for the good, in the world at large.

I do care what Vanna White thinks about PH. Why oh why does she remain silent?

I've enjoyed hanging out here the last several months. But I've certainly wondered ... why don't some of paleo's names hang out here too?

Perish the thought ... but perhaps the whole concept of community based on rep points is not the best system?

Kresser has said less-than-praising things before, too.

Anyhow, I like that today in his podcast wolf mentions how he's seeing success with a classic bodybuilder approach of lower fat, higher carb and higher protein just done with paleo food items. Bunch of us been saying this for the past year.

yea rob is family and im glad for it

It is what it is...everyone has to decide for themselves what they won't to go with being right and wrong...Sometimes this site is a good place to come for a good laugh...at other times it can be useful...go with your gut, do some research, and remember this is a forum where not every answer you find is 100% correct. It's people trying to help people which is a good thing. When you do something new it's always good if you have a form of support.

I see what he's saying, for sure. Moderator control comes dangerously close to censoring alternate points of view. In general, disagreements are handled with entirely unproductive hostility.

Seems like not enough people are capable of just ignoring what they don't approve of.

Intellectually varied maybe, but not a black hole. Knowledge does make it out of this place, and that's one reason that I began a Paleo diet. When I was burning out on normal, crappy food, I'd search google for various foods or chemicals that might be making me feel bad. Often enough, I found the best answers here on Paleohacks, and eventually I adopted the Paleo dietary viewpoint. Sure, there's some nonsense and trolling, but there's enough well-reasoned, scientifically-based content to make a difference in people's opinions and habits (or mine at least, and I'm a scientist). I think Robb's fear of trolls or sociopaths scaring his clients away is a bit unfortunate.