Paleo Diet and Paleolithic Diet Questions & Answers

Question

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So I have been doing a lot of research into histamine intolerance. There are many food items on the "high-histamine" food list that I know I react to and avoid, but I never associated them with histamines before. What really drew my attention was my long-known (but never understood) indigestion after eating slow-cooked or pressure-cooked meats. I have been making gelatin-rich bone broth by cooking lamb and beef shanks in my pressure cooker. It tastes amazing and leaves me with several meals of meat and broth. But despite cooking totally clean, I was having reactions that I did not have when I ate lamb or beef steak.

So understanding the relationship between long-cooked or leftover meat and histamine explains a lot. However, this leaves me with a problem. I gave up bread and nuts a long time ago. I had no issue removing citrus fruit and tomatoes and smoked meats when I felt they were causing me problems. But now I'm looking at removing not only a large component of my diet, but one that was supposed to be helping me. Not to mention my only means of making meals in advance. I can't exactly fry a steak in the lunchroom at work.

So is anyone else trying to navigate the world of histamine intolerance? How do you do it? How do you get gelatin and broth into your diet if you can't eat slow-cooked meat protein? What the heck do you eat when you can't cook fresh meat? I have to admit this has me pretty bummed.

edited Feb 22 2012 at 6:19

asked Feb 22 2012 at 3:48

Kelly
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Kelly, I wish I knew enough to offer some help. I wish you success in getting food you can eat. Jamie Scott might be able to help. Here is his blog: thatpaleoguy.com – PaleoGran Feb 22 2012 at 17:39

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Thanks for the help. I am feeling more positive today. It just was discouraging that getting gluten out of my diet, while it helped me in a lot of ways, actually left me feeling worse in other ways. I think a lot of that resulted from me increasing my reliance on some histamine-heavy foods because I knew they were "safe". I'll do what it takes to get them out of my diet, it's just a bummer to have to revamp my entire diet AGAIN, when I had finally gotten into a good routine. – Kelly Feb 22 2012 at 17:56

Kelly, I'm sorry the histamines hit so hard. It is a challenge to get the problem foods out and to find foods one can eat without trouble. Have you got access to freshly slaughtered meat? – PaleoGran Feb 23 2012 at 16:16

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Here is the page on reducing amines at the blog on the FailSafe diet. Maybe there is something there that will be helpful: failsafediet.wordpress.com/… – PaleoGran Feb 23 2012 at 16:18

Thanks for that link. I admit it kind of blows my mind trying to think about how I can do this. I live in a city and have been getting almost all of my meat frozen from grass-fed farms. I'm sure my CSA is not aging the meat much, if at all, but I have to assume it's been frozen for up to a month before I get it. There are a few local butcher shops, but none that routinely sell grass-fed meat. And 99% of the meat from the orgainc market is vacuum packed (and most is frozen). At this point, I may have to give up grass-fed to get fresh. – Kelly Feb 23 2012 at 18:13

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Bread-Eating Beelzebub · Accepted Answer · 2012-02-22 03:51:33Z UTC

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I used to be histamine intolerant, but it seems like after I healed my gut it totally went away and now I pretty much eat anything. If you can't tolerant homemade broth, have you tried just purified gelatin like the Great Lake organic stuff? There is probably something in the homemade stuff that is irritating your inflamed digestive tract.

I ate a lot of raw meat when I was on this diet. And raw fish. Raw fruit. Six months later I started adding in "normal" foods and I've been fine ever since.

answered Feb 22 2012 at 3:51

Bread-Eating Beelzebub
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Thanks Melissa. This is a pretty new revelation to me so I haven't really started experimenting yet. I have in the past consumed a lot of purified gelatin, when I was too sick to each much else, but I believed it was moue nutritious to eat it as part of a whole food. But obviously I'm not helping my inflamed digestive tract this way. I would appreciate any other helpful ideas from your gut-healing days as from reading your blog it looks like we have/had a lot of similar issues. – Kelly Feb 22 2012 at 5:03

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well, histimine intolerance is its own issue and you kind of have to set aside some other ideals if you have it. For example, fermented food is very healthy, but not at all when you are dealing with this issue. Juicing can be kind of unhealthy for many people, but with histimine intolerance it can help you get a lot of nutrients without irritating your stomach. Frozen food is usually not as good as fresh food, but with HI it can be a better choice since mold/bacterial growth is stemmed by freezing. The whole thing you have to do is eat a very clean very delicate diet until your body heals. – Bread-Eating Beelzebub Feb 22 2012 at 6:34

Great! I wonder why you did it raw? I don't eat green leafy veggies anymore (only cilantro) and find I do great with only fruit and meat and gelatin and coconut oil... – Bruno Feb 22 2012 at 7:48

I love raw meat, but I don't wanna overdo on protein... – Bruno Feb 22 2012 at 7:52

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Calcium is good when you're histamine intolerant. Ray Peat advocates Masai calcium intakes : 5-7g a day. – Korion Feb 25 2012 at 11:59

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sallycinnamon · Answer 2 · 2012-02-25 11:21:54Z UTC

Hi there

If your body is producing excess histamine, that indicates you are an undermethylator - your body is unable to process the histamine. Methylation is a body-wide process that goes on continually and there are many sub-cycles within methylation. If there is a problem at any point in one of those cycles, the whole cycle is thrown off causing potentially many different kinds of problems - food intolerance, mental health issues, hives for example. An undermethylator doesn't have enough methyl groups for a required reaction in the body to take place, leading to dysfunction.

I suggest doing some research on people that have treated their undermethylation and resolved the amine issue. I am an undermethylator myself yet I don't seem to have a problem with amines in food.

Methylation treatment goes hand in hand with the Failsafe diet already mentioned and gut problems are always implicated in food intolerances.

It can be tricky to find a doctor savvy treating this sort of thing but they do exist. I'm on a Facebook group of people dealing with similar problems to yours. Let me know if you're interested in more info.

Best wishes :)

StreakOfLean · Answer 3 · 2012-02-27 22:55:55Z UTC

I've been suspecting Histamine Intolerance for about a year, and I completely identify with your frustration. How can such a catch-22 exist? I went on a pretty restrictive diet as an experiment with acne, but got all these new things like flushing and a puffy face and swollen hands, as I was eating a lot of mackerel, kimchi, spinach, leftover meat etc. If indeed HIT is the case, then it's like being banished from Paleoland, and of course I've already exiled myself from every other diet. No fish or shellfish? No histamine-rich beef liver? No pork, no bacon, and even no beloved ruminant if it's been aged (i.e. most grass fed beef) or left in the fridge overnight? No sauerkraut, fermented cod liver oil, kefir? No high-intensity exercise? A messy mix of plagiarized or conflicting lists of acceptable foods? Hardly any information on the internet? Optimal paleo seems like a damn cake walk compared to this.

The only possible cure I'v seen is healing the gut, as Melissa mentioned, which is hard enough, but now I have to navigate throught a gut-healing protocol without fermented food or broth? An intolerance to it's own remedy? It's like some cruel joke!

For the past week I've been doing just that, a intro-style GAPS diet of gently cooked beef/lamb and squash/vegetables in broth, raw egg yolks, along with a high-quality powdered probiotic. Also l-glutamine, pure ascorbic acid, and magnesium. I'm still having daily symptoms. Could it be the broth? The aged grass-fed meat I bought frozen from a local farm? Maybe I don't even have this? Makes me want to move to Montana and just sneeze into my ice cream for the rest of my days!

Billtheurbancaveman · Answer 4 · 2012-02-27 23:15:39Z UTC

I used to have a BIG problem with Histamine response thinking, (brainwashed by the med comm), it was grasses, pollen, etc, and finally learned/realized it was food/gut related. Giving up dairy, (10 yrs ago), refined sugars, grains, beans, not long after, it went away...completely...as did all allergies. I will tell you, beyond the food, Quercitin, 1000mg/day, seemed to re-boot my system, as I can have anyone of those foods as a treat with no response. -Billy

Eric · Answer 5 · 2012-02-22 07:17:29Z UTC

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I have a very limited diet due to food alergies and Paleo. It still works.

No nuts, coconut, chocolate.

I cook meat and bring it to work every day without soup. Just cook up extra and place it in the freezer. I also bring egg yolks or potatoes pre-cooked.

answered Feb 22 2012 at 7:17

Eric
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Would coconut oil be a problem too? I think I'm on the same boat. – Pedrita Feb 27 2012 at 23:02

For me it is any/all forms of coconut. – Eric Feb 28 2012 at 6:43

egg yolks are bad if you are histamine intolerant – Roberto May 11 2012 at 15:06

Good to know Roberto!!! – Eric May 11 2012 at 16:59

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Damn it I meant whites! Yolks are fine! Sorry English isn't my first language :-s – Roberto May 16 2012 at 9:42

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Seb · Answer 6 · 2012-02-25 10:03:56Z UTC

Hello!

I am histamine intolerant since a couple of month. At least I know what I have since a couple of month :-) I found this website very informative: http://www.food-intolerance-network.com/food-intolerance/histamine-intolerance.html

Rob · Answer 7 · 2012-07-22 09:36:37Z UTC

An old thread, I do have something to add worthy of bringing it up again.

DAO is the histamine scavenging enzyme, and is believed to be more important than the methylation enzyme that degrades histamine. DAO is a copper containing enzyme, if you are deficient in copper therefore you might experience histamine intolerance.

Here comes the important bit, copper enzymes are also used to keep excess iron in check and prevent it from catalyzing all sorts of oxidation reactions. If you have an iron level that is too high a lot of your copper reserve is going to be put towards those enzymes lowering your DAO level, and potentially inducing histamine intolerance.

For myself, just 50mg of supplemental iron is enough to bring on histamine intolerance.

Keli · Answer 8 · 2012-02-22 17:26:25Z UTC

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I have high histamine and allergies and avoid bringing lunch to work. Instead I have a big breakfast and dinner. If I'm away from home I take Histame, also anti-histamines along with digestive enzymes.

I'm getting better on Paleo diet. Also started experimenting with cold exposure and this appears to be greatly helping both the histamine problems and the IgE allergies.

answered Feb 22 2012 at 17:26

Keli
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I was wondering about Histame, if only as a temprorary help with reducing the histamine-related irritation of my gut lining. Have you noticed positive effects from taking it? – Kelly Feb 22 2012 at 17:52

Also, I actually had been eating the two meal a day way for the last few months. I only gave it up because I tended to feel awful after dinner. I thought it was just eating too much at once, but now it appears that it might be what I was eating (lots of pre-made slow cooker fare). – Kelly Feb 22 2012 at 17:59

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Keli, can you provide any information on the cold exposure? From everything I've read it seems that cold exposure raises histamine levels. I would love to know more about what you're trying. – Kelly Feb 23 2012 at 22:38

Cold exposure definitely rises my histamine level. I get very hitchy.. – Roberto May 16 2012 at 9:44

Today · Answer 9 · 2012-10-16 17:51:21Z UTC

Another factor for some in histamine issues is mast cell activation disorder, a newly emerging dx category in the mast cell disease field. Unlike mastocytosis where the body produces excess mast cells (which would also be a histamine problem but more rare), in MCAD there aren't excess MCs but the rogue mast cells degranulate like crazy and spill their mediators (there are many), including histamine, inappropriately. Best overview I've seen is the Mastocytosis Society Canada website: http://www.mastocytosis.ca Low histamine diet plus other treatments are indicated.

djkvan · Answer 10 · 2012-08-04 04:12:07Z UTC

Actually cooking increases free amines, Roberto. If you are doing better with cooked eggs you likely have an egg intolerance/allergy of some kind. In spite of what some sites may say it appears (to me at least) that the most reputable recommend egg avoidance (cooked or not) for those with histamine intolerance (though some might be tolerated in baked goods). Hope this post isn't above your English tolerance ;).

@Rob. I don't know how you are determining the origin of your reactions, but supplemental iron isn't always advisable (and 50mg is a lot). Again the issue with supplements is the quick rate of absorption as they are isolated/free concentrates. The human body strictly regulates iron levels through enterohepatic circulation. The warnings on iron supps, although directed at children, are certainly applicable to adults as well.

Linda · Answer 11 · 2012-12-04 14:44:54Z UTC

If you are histamine intolerant,flush, gastro issues, check out mast cell activation syndrome. That is probably your answer. It took me 43 years to figure it out! It must be treated, as it begins to affect things in the body.

Kashkillz · Answer 12 · 2012-12-04 15:07:57Z UTC

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Have you tried Quercetin supplements? I can't really speak on its effectiveness, but supposedly...

answered Dec 4 at 15:07

Kashkillz
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Nicola · Answer 13 · 2013-01-31 11:03:09Z UTC

The GAPS diet advocates the use of meat stock early on in the diet when the body is not up to handling the longer cooked bone broth.

The meat stock recommended is cooked for 4-6 hours - meat and bones - and made into soups and stews.

This is much more healing on the digestive system than say bone broth done for 24 hours or more.

This kind of explains it:

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/stock-vs-broth-are-you-confused/

Karl Casias · Answer 14 · 2013-05-13 20:23:09Z UTC

Gosh i am pretty sure i have high histamines the body/mind has been dealing with mild anxiety and insomonia for over a month droped 20lbs but am eating better now,feel great physically can run and hike like crazy but muscle streangth went in the pooper.Watery eyes[or very dry,lots of saliva,sometimes itchy, back pain,joint pain insomonia[getting better]on no gluten and dairy products for the most part,nervous stomach and loss of appetite.Anyway i wish there was a good Doctor around here that was versed in this field. Karl

Histamine intolerance - what do you eat?

14 Answers