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Supplementation question

by (49)
Updated about 20 hours ago
Created October 15, 2011 at 12:49 PM

Hello there.

Im currently on the following every day regiment:

600mg calcium

300mg magnesium

50mcg K2

2500iu D3

600mg vitC

Are there any other supplements i could benefit from taking? Is the calcium enough? My diet consists of lots of potatoes, vegetables, meat and fish. Is the K2 dose enough? Ive noticed benefits from the 50mcg (hard white teeth and soft skin) so it must be doing something good..

What does your regiment look like? Please post.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 17, 2011 at 7:14 AM

No worries.....:)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 11:58 PM

Paleo 2.0 I dont buy that either. In Japan they get a lot more than that. Diets are different across ethnicities and have dramatic influences......same is true with drugs. Like Calcium channels blockers and beta blockers in African americans. CONTEXT!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 11:56 PM

Sorry Matt They are both located on comment 93 of the blog on the top ten paleo supplements. I apologize for the error.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 7:14 PM

By the way, have the LEF been pinching your work? I realise the above quote is from your blog. If you look under the Vitamin K heading at paragraph 37-38 on this page it looks quite similar to the last six lines above... http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_circulatory/coronary_artery_disease_atherosclerosis_02.htm

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 7:05 PM

By the way, have the LEF been pinching your work? I realise the above quote is from your blog. If you look under the Vitamin K heading at paragraph 37 on this page it looks quite similar to the last six lines above... http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_circulatory/coronary_artery_disease_atherosclerosis_02.htm

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 6:53 PM

Oops those references in the comment are all for vitamin E.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596
2861 · October 16, 2011 at 5:48 PM

What freakin' disease Quilt? SG just said that 1mg is probably the maximum amount achievable from real food. That is an important context for Paleo. Maybe not so for treating imaginary diseases and flipping epigenetic switches and re-engineering humans, but that was mentioned nowhere in the original question. Everybody can decide for themselves who is being "funny" here.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 1:39 PM

I think its funny to quote a researcher with zero clinical experience treating a disease that i have seen and treated successfully thousands of time. Remarkable really.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 1:38 PM

More data on K2. J Am Diet Assoc. 2004; 104 :567 –75. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):1200-7. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):959-60.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 1:15 PM

You make assumptions about me again with out any context. When did I ever say that vitamin K2 is not important or that it may not be beneficial to supplement? I merely questioned the validity of your assumptions.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 12:54 PM

You make assumptions about me again with out any context. When did I ever say that vitamin K2 is not important or that it may not be beneficial to supplement? I questioned the validity of your assumptions. Dr Duvet, I could question your deep experience of many things.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 12:31 PM

I mke no dosing recs here to him precisely because we dont know his context.....when he gets the correct testing then we can make an educated guess that has foundation. That is how we do it

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 12:29 PM

I never gave him a dose.....i said he needed more and i stand by it. There is a cite at the end of my blog post on vitamin k2 being pandemically low. You should read it to correct your own context bias. I test for k2 routinely so i have deep experience in knowing what exists in the population. You sit infront of the computer and tell me im wrong. Go read.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 12:05 PM

Quilt: You advised him to take more K2 with no context. You neither asked about age, gender or health status before giving your advice. You always talk about context and yet never apply any context to your answers. You also make the assumption that long-term mega-doses of MK-4 for a young person are necessary and will have no long-term ill effects. On what long-term safety data are you basing this on?

Medium avatar
39841 · October 16, 2011 at 8:06 AM

I think you should keep calcium and magnesium separate. D3 and K2 are fine together. I get my calcium from sardines and for magnesium, I think the best supplement is this one: http://www.vitacost.com/Source-Naturals-Ultra-Mag-Magnesium-Complex

5c51e7906813e011cb240c71a8052bbd
49 · October 16, 2011 at 6:26 AM

Thanks Travis. Could you recommend any good magnesium and K2 supplement brands? Right now i take Natures Plus Cal/Mag/D3/K2 but it contains alot of calcium. It also contains 50 mcg menatetrenone wich is mk4(?)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 12:14 AM

MAtthew you dont know that because he gave us no context. Your just assuming again.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8
5132 · October 15, 2011 at 11:13 PM

Agree, these are isolated nutrients. We don't know if they work in synergy w/other nutrients or deplete other nutrients. Unless u have a special need, I would err on the side of caution: take no more than 5mg of MK4 and bring it up from 1mg slowly. Until recently, we thought calcium supplements were essential to avoid osteoporosis.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 15, 2011 at 9:53 PM

A pharmacalogical dose used to treat osteoporosis is probably not a good guide for supplementing a 24 year old.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 15, 2011 at 6:31 PM

Most people need a lot more than SG reports. In japan they use upwards of 50 mgs a day to treat osteoporosis. I do the same in my clinic after testing and diagnosis. Skin is amazing on most patients after 3 months when its used with CO ormcaprylic acid, resveratrol and dha and optimal D3

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8
5132 · October 15, 2011 at 5:10 PM

Wow, so how's your skin?

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c
1054 · October 15, 2011 at 4:50 PM

I take 25mg of K2 (all MK4) daily from Thorne Research. 3000mg C I'm curing my leaky gut.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596
2861 · October 15, 2011 at 3:37 PM

I believe Stephan Guyenet said somewhere that about the most would naturally expect to get from real food would be about 1mg/1000mcg, so he wouldn't recommmend more than that. K2-mk4 has been used in doses as high as 24mg/24,000mcg to attempt to treat osteoporosis without too many side effects reported.

5c51e7906813e011cb240c71a8052bbd
49 · October 15, 2011 at 3:21 PM

i might add its the mk4 vitamin k2 im taking

5c51e7906813e011cb240c71a8052bbd
49 · October 15, 2011 at 3:10 PM

OK. How much C and K2 do you recommend? I do not eat fruit every day and k2..hpw do i get that from foods?

5c51e7906813e011cb240c71a8052bbd
49 · October 15, 2011 at 3:08 PM

Im 24. Im a college student, so my diet includes a lot of plain foods

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd
6433 · October 15, 2011 at 3:06 PM

So what sort of dose would you suggest?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094
78422 · October 15, 2011 at 1:48 PM

Age? vit c is low, calcium is too much.

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4 Answers

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8
2
5132 · October 15, 2011 at 4:23 PM

It depends on how much you weigh and how much you're getting from food. I would say 1g Vit C if you're not getting it from food. But you must be getting some from what you eat.

As for K-2 in MK4 / Menaquinone form, 1mg if not getting from food. But you have your MK4 and MK7 mixed up. The dose you're taking must be from MK7, not MK4. And most supplements come as MK7. So for MK7, you should be taking 100mcg.

Vit D-3 depends on your sun exposure and where you are latitudinally, as well as your body weight. Ditch Calcium supplelemtns; they're dangerous and don't do what they're supposed to do. Mg depends on your special needs, but 300mg is about right. 200mg if you're tiny.

Medium avatar
1
39841 · October 15, 2011 at 6:44 PM

Halve calcium, increase magnesium to 400mg (preferably a chelated supplement with B6 in it), double K2, increase D3 to 4K, and at least double vitamin C.

Medium avatar
39841 · October 16, 2011 at 8:06 AM

I think you should keep calcium and magnesium separate. D3 and K2 are fine together. I get my calcium from sardines and for magnesium, I think the best supplement is this one: http://www.vitacost.com/Source-Naturals-Ultra-Mag-Magnesium-Complex

5c51e7906813e011cb240c71a8052bbd
49 · October 16, 2011 at 6:26 AM

Thanks Travis. Could you recommend any good magnesium and K2 supplement brands? Right now i take Natures Plus Cal/Mag/D3/K2 but it contains alot of calcium. It also contains 50 mcg menatetrenone wich is mk4(?)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
-1
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 1:34 PM

PPAR???s form heterodimers with retinoid X receptors (RXRs) and these heterodimers regulate transcription of various genes involved with our fat cells. These genes are up-regulated by both carbohydrates and lipids in our diet. PPAR-gamma activates the PON1 gene, increasing synthesis and release of paraoxonase??1 from the liver, reducing atherosclerosis. It functions as a plasma antioxidant; it prevents the oxidation of LDL found in the plasma. High levels of paraoxanase are also seen with high levels of glutathione in our plasma. They tend to walk hand in hand with one another. Low levels of plasma paraoxanase is tied to the development of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease. Low levels of glutathione are also found when these diseases develop. Low levels of paraoxanase are also tied to Vitamin K2 depletion in arterial walls. PON1 gene transcription occurs in the hepatocyte. Its coded protein is synthesized in the liver and transported along with HDL in the plasma. Low levels of HDL are associated with vitamin K2 depletion in arterial walls. A large study of more than 4,800 subjects followed for 7-10 years in the Netherlands demonstrated that people in the highest one-third of vitamin K2 intake had a 57% reduction in risk of dying from vascular disease, compared to those with the lowest intake. Furthermore, their risk of having severe aortic calcification plummeted by 52%???a clear demonstration of the vitamin???s protective effects (Geleijnse, 2004). Another study by the same group showed that higher vitamin K2 intake was associated with a 20% decreased risk of coronary artery calcification (Beulens, 2009).

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 17, 2011 at 7:14 AM

No worries.....:)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 11:56 PM

Sorry Matt They are both located on comment 93 of the blog on the top ten paleo supplements. I apologize for the error.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 6:53 PM

Oops those references in the comment are all for vitamin E.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 1:38 PM

More data on K2. J Am Diet Assoc. 2004; 104 :567 –75. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):1200-7. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):959-60.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 7:14 PM

By the way, have the LEF been pinching your work? I realise the above quote is from your blog. If you look under the Vitamin K heading at paragraph 37-38 on this page it looks quite similar to the last six lines above... http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_circulatory/coronary_artery_disease_atherosclerosis_02.htm

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 7:05 PM

By the way, have the LEF been pinching your work? I realise the above quote is from your blog. If you look under the Vitamin K heading at paragraph 37 on this page it looks quite similar to the last six lines above... http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_circulatory/coronary_artery_disease_atherosclerosis_02.htm

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
-1
25467 · October 15, 2011 at 2:44 PM

Vitamin c and K2 way too low........

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c
1054 · October 15, 2011 at 4:50 PM

I take 25mg of K2 (all MK4) daily from Thorne Research. 3000mg C I'm curing my leaky gut.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 15, 2011 at 9:53 PM

A pharmacalogical dose used to treat osteoporosis is probably not a good guide for supplementing a 24 year old.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8
5132 · October 15, 2011 at 11:13 PM

Agree, these are isolated nutrients. We don't know if they work in synergy w/other nutrients or deplete other nutrients. Unless u have a special need, I would err on the side of caution: take no more than 5mg of MK4 and bring it up from 1mg slowly. Until recently, we thought calcium supplements were essential to avoid osteoporosis.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 12:14 AM

MAtthew you dont know that because he gave us no context. Your just assuming again.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596
2861 · October 15, 2011 at 3:37 PM

I believe Stephan Guyenet said somewhere that about the most would naturally expect to get from real food would be about 1mg/1000mcg, so he wouldn't recommmend more than that. K2-mk4 has been used in doses as high as 24mg/24,000mcg to attempt to treat osteoporosis without too many side effects reported.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 12:05 PM

Quilt: You advised him to take more K2 with no context. You neither asked about age, gender or health status before giving your advice. You always talk about context and yet never apply any context to your answers. You also make the assumption that long-term mega-doses of MK-4 for a young person are necessary and will have no long-term ill effects. On what long-term safety data are you basing this on?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 12:29 PM

I never gave him a dose.....i said he needed more and i stand by it. There is a cite at the end of my blog post on vitamin k2 being pandemically low. You should read it to correct your own context bias. I test for k2 routinely so i have deep experience in knowing what exists in the population. You sit infront of the computer and tell me im wrong. Go read.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 12:31 PM

I mke no dosing recs here to him precisely because we dont know his context.....when he gets the correct testing then we can make an educated guess that has foundation. That is how we do it

5c51e7906813e011cb240c71a8052bbd
49 · October 15, 2011 at 3:10 PM

OK. How much C and K2 do you recommend? I do not eat fruit every day and k2..hpw do i get that from foods?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 12:54 PM

You make assumptions about me again with out any context. When did I ever say that vitamin K2 is not important or that it may not be beneficial to supplement? I questioned the validity of your assumptions. Dr Duvet, I could question your deep experience of many things.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd
6433 · October 15, 2011 at 3:06 PM

So what sort of dose would you suggest?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 15, 2011 at 6:31 PM

Most people need a lot more than SG reports. In japan they use upwards of 50 mgs a day to treat osteoporosis. I do the same in my clinic after testing and diagnosis. Skin is amazing on most patients after 3 months when its used with CO ormcaprylic acid, resveratrol and dha and optimal D3

5c51e7906813e011cb240c71a8052bbd
49 · October 15, 2011 at 3:21 PM

i might add its the mk4 vitamin k2 im taking

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8
5132 · October 15, 2011 at 5:10 PM

Wow, so how's your skin?

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596
2861 · October 16, 2011 at 5:48 PM

What freakin' disease Quilt? SG just said that 1mg is probably the maximum amount achievable from real food. That is an important context for Paleo. Maybe not so for treating imaginary diseases and flipping epigenetic switches and re-engineering humans, but that was mentioned nowhere in the original question. Everybody can decide for themselves who is being "funny" here.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 11:58 PM

Paleo 2.0 I dont buy that either. In Japan they get a lot more than that. Diets are different across ethnicities and have dramatic influences......same is true with drugs. Like Calcium channels blockers and beta blockers in African americans. CONTEXT!

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb
19220 · October 16, 2011 at 1:15 PM

You make assumptions about me again with out any context. When did I ever say that vitamin K2 is not important or that it may not be beneficial to supplement? I merely questioned the validity of your assumptions.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 16, 2011 at 1:39 PM

I think its funny to quote a researcher with zero clinical experience treating a disease that i have seen and treated successfully thousands of time. Remarkable really.

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