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The Ultimate PaleoHacks Supplement Thread

by (10502)
Updated about 13 hours ago
Created September 18, 2011 at 7:33 PM

Lots of questions around supplements on PaleoHacks. Why, How, Which etc etc

Let's wrap this in one amazing thread.

Here is how I would like for you to answer:

1) Common name of supplement

1a) Which form or format (if it has multiple) is recommended & why, (This is often very confusing)

1b) Typical cost

2) Why anyone would want to take it?

2a) Dosage amount.

3) Interactions with other supplements?

4) Link to site that sells it

5) Side effects

6) Notes

Have at it.

TOC: Coenzime Q10 Fish Oil Magnesium Piracetam Vitamin C Vitamin K2

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275 · April 17, 2013 at 3:17 PM

do i need to keep the powder in a dark place due to it being light sensitive, or is that only went mixed?

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9402 · December 02, 2012 at 7:38 PM

"food intake can be 5mg at best" - what if you eat heart? I believe 1kg of beef heart has 113 mg of CoQ10.

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0 · May 21, 2012 at 4:38 AM

Hey how about Dr. Mercola? Doesn't he get any love here? http://products.mercola.com/vitamin-k/ I take his K2 and it's pretty good.

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20363 · November 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM

Favoriting this!

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78427 · October 03, 2011 at 9:56 AM

Here is another one, http://faculty.washington.edu/ely/Glycation88.html

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1436 · October 01, 2011 at 3:29 PM

I use the LEF brand. Natto is the highest food source of K2 so it makes sense that it's derived from it. Personally, I don't have any problem consuming feremented soy. If you do have issue, I would recommend looking at the thorne research product which is soy-free AFIAK.

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25467 · October 01, 2011 at 10:37 AM

Piracetam is not a US based supplement. It is in Europe. Many doctors are using it in a longevity practice. I am quite aware of it.

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25467 · October 01, 2011 at 10:36 AM

Most humans are K2 deficient. I just got a great question about it on my blog and post two studies I know of that talks about that very issue. Thanks for the discussion about Reindeer meat. I had no idea. When I visit Sweden soon I will try to get some.

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1471 · October 01, 2011 at 2:15 AM

Someone commented (on AMAZON) that the LEF K2 is derived from NATTO which is from SOY. So this may cause problems for soy sensitive. But if we are to try to stay away from soy, what problems could this cause us in taking this brand of supplement?

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25467 · September 30, 2011 at 12:14 AM

Maj.....you are their butterfly effect. Take the complement.

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 11:15 PM

And please, don't do it for me... do it for the sake of the kids and future digital generations :D

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 11:11 PM

Good doctor.... :)

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1436 · September 29, 2011 at 10:41 PM

ROB, Yes. See the link I just added to the USDA food sources of K2. I think cron-o-meter is using the USDA database which only measures K1.

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3521 · September 29, 2011 at 9:32 PM

egg yolk??? I checked it out on cron-o-meter and it doesn't seem to contain that much vitamin k.

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 12:56 PM

Or http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/23/6/726.abstract?ijkey=8e24d04964b04fb2465bd084c2997438433d1881&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 12:55 PM

Diabetics need vitamin C, just search Pubmed. Also, its well known that vitamin C interferes with medical devices and finger meters because they have similar molecular formula. See for instance http://www.sportron.co.za/resourceLib/ResearchArticles/Inhibition%20of%20Protein%20Glycation%20and%20advanced%20Glycation%20end%20products%20by%20Ascorbic%20Acids.pdf

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20411 · September 29, 2011 at 12:03 PM

Also note that a side effect of Vit. C is raised blood glucose levels - this is important information for diabetics!

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25467 · September 29, 2011 at 1:51 AM

Maj I added them for you in the post.....and a couple of other pearls for Ubiquinol too.

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25467 · September 28, 2011 at 7:22 PM

Maj......I think I will compromise with you. I will call it the Maj dosing.......i will add it to the blog sometime in the next few days.

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78427 · September 28, 2011 at 5:26 AM

Ah, yes, order Nootropil, its the best known.

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78427 · September 28, 2011 at 5:23 AM

In Serbia, its sell as a drug and its not available over the counter but since its so well known, they give it to anybody anyway. Here is the place where you can order some, don't ask how good they are, but I ordered few times from them: http://smart-drugs.net.

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78427 · September 28, 2011 at 5:19 AM

Doc, this is soemething you don't know. I come from open source world. We practice open information on the net and I think its possible for the medicine too. What prevents you to put typical dosages and few untypical ? I agree that time might be a problem, but then, you have lots of info on your site and quality vs quantity was always a good principle to follow. Answering questions might be counterproductive to be honest, its better to let 'knowledgeable users' to do that.

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1960 · September 28, 2011 at 4:44 AM

I've checked GNC, a big chain pharmacy and an organic grocery store -- and no one's heard of Piracetam. Is there a reputable online source?

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25467 · September 28, 2011 at 12:51 AM

Cant say i disagree maj.....but i cant practice medicine on the net. But i can hypothetically answer questions posed to me in comments:)

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78427 · September 27, 2011 at 2:32 PM

BTW, your page sux :P Without dose, nothing really matters... there is a difference between 10mg, 30mg and 300mg of CoQ10 making one effective and other useless, just as taking 10mg and 400mg antibiotic. Frequency is equally important. Thx for the answer doc :)

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78427 · September 27, 2011 at 6:45 AM

It was not only you who had questions about it and you made a good point when I thought about it more.

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78427 · September 27, 2011 at 6:44 AM

It was not only you who had questions about it.

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16131 · September 27, 2011 at 1:19 AM

Thank you for the recommendation THeOrigianKazl. I buy from Swansons because their national brands are also less expensive. I have not yet taken phosphatadidyle serine, but I will if I can source non soy. THX!

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800 · September 27, 2011 at 12:50 AM

Meredith, excellent start. You may wish to edit/expand using the information in my post in the adaptogens thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/12136/has-anyone-tried-adaptogens#axzz1Z6pRdpEn Both Swansons and Vitacost.com carry soy derived PS conjugated with DHA (look for Sharp PS Gold in the ingredients)

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25467 · September 27, 2011 at 12:22 AM

i use this for my antiaging patients. Lots of interesting effects on mitochondria. I like it.

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182 · September 26, 2011 at 7:43 PM

I hardly see how suggesting a correction is a "lot of noise". Regardless, the post is highly informative. Appreciate your effort.

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78427 · September 26, 2011 at 5:30 PM

I asked your opinion on Piracetam, not general supplementation. Piracetam is in the core of your domain.

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1159 · September 26, 2011 at 4:18 PM

Don't forget teeth :P

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78427 · September 25, 2011 at 2:49 PM

I updated the 'dosage' section.

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78427 · September 24, 2011 at 6:21 AM

OK, since that generated lot of noise, I changed 'usless' to 'not very effective due to the small dose'

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:53 PM

That depends on what you want to achieve as was my original answer - if you want to kill virus, its useless, if you want to prevent scurvy or reduce smoking damage its not 100% useless.

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182 · September 23, 2011 at 6:21 PM

Again, less effective but not useless, as was my original and only point.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 4:00 PM

And what would you do if you need to take 30g or more with viral infection ? Take 50 tablets ?

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 3:59 PM

There are no tablets of 5g. The most I found is 1g. Obviously, you would have to take 10 or so, but then you are injecting 1g of fillers and that is not vitamin c.

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182 · September 23, 2011 at 1:44 PM

500mg is not enough, regardless of delivery. And if you take 5g in tablet form? You're just moving the goalposts. Tablets are more than trivial - but even if that's all they are that already qualifies them as better than "useless".

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:21 AM

BTW, tablets can prevent scurvy only because kidney has specific treashold after which it says - "HEJ, IF I LOOSE ANY MORE C I WILL DIE ASAP" and then it does everything it can to return oxidized version of C (dehydroascorbic acid) to its reduced (active) form and bring it back to circulation. Thats why you can live 6 monhts or more without any C input without dying of scurvy. Plus, bifidobacteria make small amounts of C, enough to prevent scurvy (if you have them, [looking at antibiotics now]). Massive dying of sailors was exactly because of it - high stress in limited space, with no C.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:16 AM

This is the very reason 99.999% of all vitamin C studies are useless - they use very small RDA doses (~100mg) which totally ignore Vitamin C pharamcokinetics. You have paper above, read it yourself.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:15 AM

No, they are useless, not less effective. If half life time is 30 minutes and you absorb 5-15%, that means 500mg tablet which is what you usually get is absorbed maximally 50-100mg. If you arange that to 6L of blood you will get 100mcg of C per ml. Since half life is 30 minutes, in 2 hours you will have less then 1mcg. Which is trivial, right ? Tablets can prevent scurvy but thats it. Its not our point here to prevent scurvy, but to maintain optimal health.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:08 AM

Also, idebenone is considered nootropic, like Piracetam.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:03 AM

Thx for the paper, I will read it. However, I know one interesting property of Idebenone - in hyphoxic conditions CoQ10 turns to be radical, while idebenone is still protective. Check out this site http://www.achaf.org/us/coq10idebenone.html. It doesn't list references but I doubt they are imagined and should be easy to find.

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182 · September 22, 2011 at 7:07 PM

Then again, maybe not - http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011897 "primary CoQ10 deficiencies should be treated with CoQ10 supplementation but not with short-tail ubiquinone analogs, such as idebenone or CoQ2"

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182 · September 22, 2011 at 6:56 PM

Idebenone is sold at iherb. It's cheaper than Ubiquinone, which is supposedly less effective.

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182 · September 22, 2011 at 2:52 PM

Tablets are "useless"? Less effective perhaps, but hardly useless.

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24538 · September 21, 2011 at 6:06 PM

I will add mg malate to the list, I missed that one, seems to be indicated for fybromyalgia too. And @m I'll fix the calcium blocking bit, you are correct on that one.

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 5:27 PM

@Pocket Groket, yeah, keep that in mind :P

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452 · September 21, 2011 at 2:03 PM

http://examine.com/supplements/Phosphatidylserine/ - commonly found in mackeral

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452 · September 21, 2011 at 2:02 PM

majkinetor - Examine.com is a group site ... if you find something missing or an error with something, you should post an update. Makes it better for everyone.

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1811 · September 21, 2011 at 1:33 PM

What about Magnesium malate form?

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1811 · September 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM

"May be problematic with caesarean section"... huh?

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1363 · September 21, 2011 at 1:18 PM

And by too much sun I mean laying out for longer than an hour or so in midday more than one a week or so.

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1363 · September 21, 2011 at 1:18 PM

Pretty much I think you should take D3 in southern hemisphere because you should avoid too much sun because of the high UV factor. I try to avoid the sun by wearing lots of sunscreen when I'm outdoors in Australia. Its kinda a given because i feel like everyone I know in Australia over age 60 has at least one skin cancer. Some people are like no, but usually people with darker skin and Asian heritage don't seem to agree, but I wouldn't think they would have as much trouble with burning as descendants from Europe, england, scotland, etc.

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 12:07 PM

Added interactions.

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 11:59 AM

"directing calcium to where it ought to be" is IMO a wrong description. K2 does that. Mg is calcium channel blocker.

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 11:56 AM

cow brains and soy lecithin and lamb's kidneys Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_get_phosphatidylserine_from_food_sources#ixzz1YaTisgB3

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24538 · September 21, 2011 at 7:03 AM

Do you happen to know what it is derived from and/or food sources?

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 4:23 PM

Also, vitamin C studies used meaningless single a day doses (like 100mg - 500mg once a day). From basic pharmacology is certain that such treatment is meaningless, yet it showed benefit in certain groups of people (small one tho).

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM

I don't find that site particularly good. First, it lists single meta study as rebuttal of efficiency while most of those meta studies are either useless as they mix different types of supplementation to much or are rebutted.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 4:09 PM

Yeah, fish oil is bellow "worth it" line. Pass

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 3:56 PM

Its biased site. Its not objective at all. Furthermore, meta studies are of questionable valus and some scientists disregard them at all.

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1960 · September 20, 2011 at 3:50 PM

Thanks for the site!

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4620 · September 20, 2011 at 3:48 PM

Great hack. Request: K2 (specifically recommendations for a good K2 brand in Canada).

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 3:47 PM

Its a junk site.

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705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:22 PM

http://examine.com/supplements/Vitamin+D/

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705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:21 PM

Excellent overview! Even more: http://examine.com/supplements/Coenzyme+Q10/

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705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:21 PM

http://examine.com/supplements/Fish+Oil/

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705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:17 PM

See also http://examine.com, dedicated to supplement science and an interactive look at supplements and their scientific credibility: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/ .

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705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:15 PM

See also [Examine.com, dedicated to supplement science](http://examine.com/) and [an interactive look at supplements and their scientific credibility](http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/).

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 2:02 PM

Perhaps not important, but until i see concrete evidence that TC of 360-460 is great, certainly didnt make me feel like superman, i rather have it at somewhere 250.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 1:25 PM

I supplement K2, although I eat lot of butter and my digestion is fine. Its extremely safe. The point was that not about K2 anyway. Also, TC is not important for 99% of us, the people need to stop talking about it like it is the worst thing in the world. Cholesterol is generally protective.

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 1:19 PM

And i do eat my heart raw, sometimes just seared or grilled on surface. I never braise it, i wonder why people do that. Also add it to stock, ground and browned, this is for flavor, i doubt theres much nutrtion left after the stock is done, but cant hurt. Lamb hearts are very convient in size. Sometimes i get Elk and deer heart from my hunter friend, liver too. Finnish wild deer liver is about the best liver i have tasted. Tastes like blueberries and lingonberries. There is very little actual liver taste. But i know that its propably not so good for you, due to the huge retinol content.

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 1:09 PM

I will order Reindeer meat for winter, its quite pricy meat, since its basicly pastered wild meat in Lapland. But i guess its perfect food for a scandinavians, we evolved eating it. Cows cant survive during winter outside so its not so paleoish solution. Reindeer meat is more mufa fat too, perhaps i am eating too much SFA for my genes. I do know that dairy fat spike my TC like crazy, not happy about that. Certainly far from optimal.

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 1:02 PM

majkinetor: Well it depends where you live, but here in Finland even the best local eggs, beef are not pastur ed for very long during the year. They are not so rich in K2 etc... I do eat twice liver, marrow (perhaps 4 times a week) etc few times a week. Doing best i can. Its much easier for you guys who live in warmer climates.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 12:25 PM

I imagine there are lot of D3 experts here, given the publicity it recently got. I could, but I already did 3 supplements so far.

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24538 · September 20, 2011 at 9:15 AM

What about our Southern hemisphere hackers? If it is needed from Santa Barbara north, wouldn't it be needed in Sydney and Christchurch too?

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 8:03 AM

Pretty bad description IMO... there is so much in fish oil including potential toxicity.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 7:59 AM

Oh, and yes, playing with Vitamin D can destroy you. It activates 10% of your genome, its not understood completely, its a hormone ffs, and its a rat poison. Go figure.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 7:27 AM

OK, page is updated. Last one from me.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:29 AM

BTW, Almost everything is not completely understood including bunch of things used every day like anesthesia, medical marijuana or paracetamol with water being almost completely unknown to us.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:28 AM

I didn't assume complete safety, I did research Piracetam for 2 years I put my faith in it as non-toxic and highly probable unproblematic. After all, its about faith - scientists can't prove it since this is not mathematics and there are always evidence that something is harmful no matter the substance (just check with water). The same is true for low carb vs low fat diets. Science is like informed relgion in that manner - you need to put your faith at one side at the end. Check up episode of futurama - oh my science.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:23 AM

Almost everything is not completely understood including bunch of things used every day like anesthesia, medical marijuana or paracetamol.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:18 AM

Thats one of the points of supplementation - when something dies the beneficial subsatances die with it soon. When you cook something that is already dead for some time, you kill what remained faster. When you cut it with you knife and expose it to lite and oxygen .... you got it... take your supplement.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:13 AM

BTW, if you nor eating that heart raw and in the dark, there is lots of chance you don't get it. The UV light and temperature together have a great effect on coenzyme Q10 stability.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:11 AM

@Jan, why K2 then ? There is lots of it in animals and even your bacteria make form of it. You are biased.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:10 AM

Chocolate is also playing with your neurotransmiters (serotonin), as much as sugar (opiate receptors), nicotine (playing with similar receptors as Piracetam actually), marijuana (cannabinoid) etc...

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:08 AM

There is no substance that is harmless - each substance is balance between positive and negative contribution to the body.

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5853 · September 19, 2011 at 7:13 PM

I get my coq10 from lamb and beef heart. I really dont want another pill. Perhaps for K2 but not for coq10.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 6:54 PM

"That something completely synthetic is harmful needs to be proven and the same goes for natural stuff." It's not the harmfulness that needs to be proven but the harmlessness.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 6:53 PM

I never said it was "toxic". A substance doesn't have to be toxic to be problematic. With a substance's mechanism being not completely understood, it's foolish to assume complete safety. You're playing with the nervous system's chemical balance after all.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:05 PM

Yes, mixed with water. You can keep it in powder form for 5 years or more. If it goes yellow, you know its oxidized but even in this form its useful since cells know how to recycle it back. However, I recommend reduced agent.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:03 PM

I agree that Piracetam is not useful for some people. Some, are highly responsive. Perhaps its dose tweaking perhaps something else. Some people feel real benefits for some time then they diminish to zero. Its on try and see basis. Everyone wishing to use it need education.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:02 PM

The difference between drug and supplement is political, it doesn't exist on chemical level.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:01 PM

The difference between prescription and supplement is political, there is no such difference on chemical level.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:00 PM

CoQ10 is made inside the body. That something completely synthetic is harmful needs to be proven and the same goes for natural stuff. Wheat protein is toxic. Piracetam didn't prove yet to be toxic, after 60 years of usage. Its all about evidence.

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39831 · September 19, 2011 at 4:26 PM

When you say it lasts 1 day in the fridge, you mean when mixed with water, right? Should we store ascorbic acid crystals in the fridge?

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 4:04 PM

CoQ10 is found in food, Piracetam is completely synthetic.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 3:58 PM

I developed symptoms of ulcerative proctitis ten days after starting those supplements. It later showed to be small intestinal bacterial overgrowth with all it's effects. So what got compromised was probably my gut flora, small intestinal motility or both. I don't have amalgam fillings. Many medications extensively used can be harmful. That actually defines a medicine. Piracetam is prescription only in some countries. It's probably less harmful than other medication more widely used. I'm not saying it alone is what caused my condition, who would know? What I said you can read above.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 3:57 PM

I developed symptoms of ulcerative proctitis ten days after starting those supplements. It later showed to be small intestinal bacterial overgrowth with all it's effects. So what got compromised was probably my gut flora, small intestinal motility or both. I don't have amalgam fillings. Many medications extensively used can be harmful. That actually defines a medicine. Piracetam is prescription only in some countries. I'm not saying it is as harmful as other medications also widely used. I'm not saying it alone is what caused my condition, who would know? What I said you can read above.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 3:56 PM

I developed symptoms of ulcerative proctitis ten days after starting those supplements. It later showed to be small intestinal bacterial overgrowth with all it's effects. So what got compromised was probably my gut flora, small intestinal motility or both. I don't have amalgam fillings. Many medications extensively used can be harmful. That actually defines a medicine. Piracetam is prescription only in some countries. I'm not saying it is as harmful as other medications also widely used. I'm not saying it alone is what caused my condition. What I said you can read above.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:30 PM

I don't see relevance of how old is it comparing to HFCS.... CoQ10 is the same age for instance. The fact is that Piracetam is extensively used. Its so much used that its cost in most pharmacies is almost symbolic.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:27 PM

Please define seriously compromised.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:26 PM

I disagree. Its probably coincidental. I know many people young people using it for years, without any ill effects. Its hard to rule out variables given what you take. It could be ALA for instance if you have amalgam (if we talk about Alpha Lipocic Acid, not α-linolenic acid

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:24 PM

Totally agree. .

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4
20411 · September 19, 2011 at 2:06 PM

Especially important for anyone on a statin or after quitting statins - since statins deplete CoQ10.

Da8e709acde269e8b8bfbc09d1737841
1906 · September 19, 2011 at 1:21 PM

Wouldn't the recommended version be fermented cod liver oil blended with butter oil, in gel form?

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 12:00 PM

I'm not convinced it's completely harmless. My intestinal health got seriously compromised after starting piracetam, choline bitartrate, ALA, ALCAR and vitamin B supplementation. Since I don't know if any of these substances caused it I may be biased, but I don't think it was a coincidence. Considering that many people don't even notice a difference or do better on microdoses, I suspect Piracetam is not worth it for healthy individuals and a paleo diet yields better cognitive effects. Besides, it's merely as old as high fructose corn syrup and doesn't qualify as a paleo supplement.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137
1515 · September 19, 2011 at 11:57 AM

I'm not convinced it's completely harmless. My intestinal health got seriously compromised after starting piracetam, choline bitartrate, ALA, ALCAR and vitamin B supplementation. Since I don't know if any of these substances caused it I may be biased, but I don't think it was a coincidence. Considering that many people don't even notice a difference or do better on microdoses, I suspect Piracetam is not worth it for healthy individuals and a paleo diet yields better cognitive effects. Besides, it's merely as old as high fructose corn syrup and doesn't quality as a paleo supplement.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 11:01 AM

No. Its synthetic substance with long history of usage. Its non-toxic property made new class of drugs - nootropics. As of June 2006, piracetam is sold in the United States as a dietary supplement. Its one of the rare gems produced by "Big Pharma" :)

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM

This is one of those rare gems of BigPharma.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 10:57 AM

As of June 2006, piracetam is sold in the United States as a dietary supplement

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 10:51 AM

No. Its synthetic substance with long history of usage. Its non-toxic property made new class of drugs - nootropics.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f
10919 · September 19, 2011 at 10:34 AM

Is it found in nature? Ive never heard of it

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 9:59 AM

@Quilt, this is your domain, perhaps you could provide some input, meh ?

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 8:03 AM

None, read again, updated version

Medium avatar
39831 · September 19, 2011 at 5:43 AM

Any problem with plain old ascorbic acid if you can tolerate it?

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:24 AM

@Phoenix - Calcium ascorbate is no good @ Jeff, right, iron, forgot that

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15226 · September 19, 2011 at 2:16 AM

interactions with other supplements - it should be taken away from calcium, also will enhance iron absorption

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9
4620 · September 18, 2011 at 10:52 PM

Calcium ascorbate any good?

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930
5232 · September 18, 2011 at 9:23 PM

"Co q10 has a similar chemical structure to vitamin K, a vitamin involved in the ability of blood to clot. Co q10 may antagonize the effects of anti-clotting medications such as warfarin or heparin. Co q10 may increase the effects of dopamine, so it may interact with medications that increase dopamine. These drugs are often used to treat depression and Parkinson's disease."

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10 Answers

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14
78427 · September 18, 2011 at 9:03 PM

Name:

Vitamin C, Ascorbic acid

Form

Ascorbic Acid Powder, Magnesium-Ascorbate, Sodium Ascorbate, Calcium Ascorbate, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Rose Hip Powder, Acerola Powder, Camu Camu Powder

  • For detailed analysis of biovalibality of different forms, visit this link.
  • Do not use Calcium Ascorbate as calcium is not needed for supplementation.

Delivery

Half life: 30 minutes

TTP: 60 - 120 minutes

  • As tablet, not very effective due to small dose.
  • As effervescent tablet usually with a bioflavonid complex, mostly useless, pricey and usually contains additives like aspartam, sorbitol etc, which makes it dangerous.
  • As powder, great. Must be dissolved in water just before usage as it is highly unstable in water. Can last for 2 hours on open and up to 1 day in fridge. Heat and light unstable.
  • With minerals. Good practical value is with carbonated water, particularly those used to boost Mg or Iodine uptake. If you can't tolerate its acidic taste, buy sodium bicarbonate and mix 1/2 the dose of ascorbate you used.
  • As film tablet (extended release). Better then regular tablets.
  • As liposome using LET (Liposome Encapsulated Technology) which is latest drug delivery system providing 100% absorption and no side effects.

Price

  • $20-$30/kg normal, ~$0.5-$1/g LET

Dosage

LD-50: 12 g/kg

In 'standard' medicine around 100mg is thought to be enough to prevent vitamin C deficiency for majority of people (RDA ~ 100mg, UL=2g). In orthomolecular medicine, it is thought that vitamin C is needed in much higher amounts because of genetic defect (mutated GULO gene) which is based on evolutionary research, the fact that almost all animals produce very high amounts of ascorbic acid and long clinical practice (the distinction is similar to what we have with vitamin D).

  • Standard medicine: 100mg, more with specific conditions, usually not more then 500mg or 1g.
  • Orthomolecular medicine:
    • Dosage is highly individual and depends on cellular stress level. Typical well tolerated dose is between 4-15g for most people. If you can take more, it generally means that your body is sick. When it returns to normal, your tolerance will reduce. This is called bowel tolerance.
    • Must be used several times a day for benefit. Single dosage no matter size is not very useful. 2x4g, 4x2g, 3x4g or more. If LET, 1-3 g per day.
  • Small doses (150-200mg) absorb completely, with upping the dose it is absorbed less and less [not true for LET], however, plasma concentration levels always rise. The frequency of administration is related to the short half time, not to the absorption rate. The more you take, the more gets excreted in the urine. In times of stress, all animals produce more ascorbate and secrete it more in the urine and this fact tells much about its protective role since animals loose lot of energy (glucose) to produce ascorbate. Anyway, as I always say, its better to piss it off, then to be without it.
  • For complete Vitamin C Pharmacokinetics, this paper is worth reading. One of the things it says is that you can not achieve comparable level of plasma vitamin C content with fruit input. See a nice graph here.

Reason:

  • Extremely fragile and potently used inside the body.
    • UV, Oxygen and thermally unstable so cooking and storage destroys most of it.
    • Genetically modified fruit have higher levels of sugar which block C uptake and reduces C content. Vegetables and fruit is harvested before ripening which means vitamin C content is reduced. Longer storage, travel, environmental toxin exposure all diminish its level.
    • Most medications induce deficiency, especially NSAIDs (cox1ibs particularly).
    • Any infection induce deficiency.
  • Master antioxidant. Parallels glutathion.
  • Because you age, and aging reduce Vitamin C absorption and body utilization.
  • Extremely effective anti-viral agent. Very large oral doses are used (30-100g). 2-4g every hour until symptoms disappear. Must be used on first signs on disease or its effects will be far lower.
  • Effective for correct adrenal function and as anti-stress agent. Adrenals are storage for C.
  • Strong bactericidal action. Very effective for H.Pylori infections.
  • Extremely effective toxin remover, particularly Hg and alcohol (complete sobering up after 2 hours using 4g every 30 minutes). If you happen to smoke, every cig destroys 25mg of C.
  • Extremely effective for wound healing. Wounds can't heal without C as it is used to make collagen which makes it imperative with surgery and deliveries.
  • Extremely effective prevention of CVD (cardiovascular disease). Epithelium depends on good collagen support to prevent hemorrhage.
  • Very effective for gingivitis and urinary infections.
  • Important for diabetes and high sugar load as glucose competes with most common Vitamin C transporters (GLUT-X).
  • Neuroprotective effect. Very good for depression and Parkinson disease as it is used in synthesis of dopamine.
  • Effective as anti-histaminic and in general immunity. White cells without Vitamin C are like soldiers without bullets.
  • You should use it every day, because all animals make gram levels in un-stressed state.
  • You may be genetically determined for deficiency.
  • For correct synthesis of bile, hence indirectly promotes absorption of A,D,E & K in some individuals.
  • Very important in paleo/low carb diet because animals store it in organs which are not typically eaten: eyes, adrenals, brain, thymus gland and because animal food is mostly cooked. On certain types of low carb/paleo fruit is discouraged or completely avoided.
  • Very important in pregnancy and while nursing.

Interactions

  • Promotes iron absorption
  • Megadoses may promote Mg deficiency (>= 20g / day) because C makes urine oxalate levels higher and Mg binds to oxalates with high affinity
  • Slightly reduces copper absorption.
  • Must be used with NSAIDs (aspirin and friends) which induce stomach bleeding and promote urinary excretion.
  • Kiwi gel, limun, green/white tea boost absorption of C.
  • You need to be well hydrated. This is important since vitamin C promotes toxin clearance and since chronic dehydration is one of the most common symptoms of kidney stones (with higher oxalate levels in urine, it doesn't hurt to have extra protection, although association between vitamin C and kidney stones is just theoretical and is not observed in-vivo).
  • See more here.

Where to buy

Side effects

  • High doses of vitamin C are not recommended in patients with kidney failure.
  • Ascorbate Acid in water may promote enamel distruction. Always wash your mouth with water after usage or use mineral versions.
  • Flatulence, will pass after first month or so.
  • Frequent urination similar to that of diabetes. Will pass after first month or so.
  • Diarrhea on overdose (Vitamin C Flush). Reduce dosage to 75% of that taken since your body doesn't absorb it any more.
  • Contrary to popular opinion C megadoses do not induce kidney stones or we would see dead animals around. See Pauling's explanation. Make sure you take adequate dose of Mg anyway.
  • Small number of people are intolerant to very small doses (1-2g). Those should use LET because it is completely absorbed in small bowel and doesn't reach the colon.
  • Sudden stop of taking megadoses may produce "rebound scurvy". Always reduce the dosage gradually in period of 2-3 days. If not, you are more open to infections during that time [if you are pregnant, I suggest strongly following this rule].

Notes

  • There is no Vitamin C Complex. It is used to boost the price of the product.
  • Even though there are thousands of research papers released each year, vitamin C is still not understood today after more then century of research. See this paper.
  • Read:
    • Overview of C megadose.
    • Viral disease and vitamin C.
    • Ascorbate - The Science Of Vitamin C, Steve Hickey, Hilary Roberts, 2004
    • Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins, Thomas E. Levy, 2009
    • How to Live Longer and Feel Better, Linus Pauling, 1987
    • A Unified Theory of Human Cardiovascular Disease, Matthias Rath, Linus Pauling, 1992
    • The Healing Factor, Irwan Stone, 1972
    • Vitamin C - Its Chemistry and Biochemistry, Michael Davis et al, 1991
    • Why Animals Dont Get Heart Attacks But People Do, Matthias Rath, 2003
    • Oxidation, energy transfer, and vitamins, Szent-Gyorgyi, 1937

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661
15226 · September 19, 2011 at 2:16 AM

interactions with other supplements - it should be taken away from calcium, also will enhance iron absorption

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9
4620 · September 18, 2011 at 10:52 PM

Calcium ascorbate any good?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094
78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:24 AM

@Phoenix - Calcium ascorbate is no good @ Jeff, right, iron, forgot that

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094
78427 · September 19, 2011 at 8:03 AM

None, read again, updated version

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:05 PM

Yes, mixed with water. You can keep it in powder form for 5 years or more. If it goes yellow, you know its oxidized but even in this form its useful since cells know how to recycle it back. However, I recommend reduced agent.

Medium avatar
39831 · September 19, 2011 at 5:43 AM

Any problem with plain old ascorbic acid if you can tolerate it?

Medium avatar
39831 · September 19, 2011 at 4:26 PM

When you say it lasts 1 day in the fridge, you mean when mixed with water, right? Should we store ascorbic acid crystals in the fridge?

368568eb91f1b58d2f52c9c566d331b5
182 · September 23, 2011 at 1:44 PM

500mg is not enough, regardless of delivery. And if you take 5g in tablet form? You're just moving the goalposts. Tablets are more than trivial - but even if that's all they are that already qualifies them as better than "useless".

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 3:59 PM

There are no tablets of 5g. The most I found is 1g. Obviously, you would have to take 10 or so, but then you are injecting 1g of fillers and that is not vitamin c.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 4:00 PM

And what would you do if you need to take 30g or more with viral infection ? Take 50 tablets ?

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:15 AM

No, they are useless, not less effective. If half life time is 30 minutes and you absorb 5-15%, that means 500mg tablet which is what you usually get is absorbed maximally 50-100mg. If you arange that to 6L of blood you will get 100mcg of C per ml. Since half life is 30 minutes, in 2 hours you will have less then 1mcg. Which is trivial, right ? Tablets can prevent scurvy but thats it. Its not our point here to prevent scurvy, but to maintain optimal health.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:16 AM

This is the very reason 99.999% of all vitamin C studies are useless - they use very small RDA doses (~100mg) which totally ignore Vitamin C pharamcokinetics. You have paper above, read it yourself.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:21 AM

BTW, tablets can prevent scurvy only because kidney has specific treashold after which it says - "HEJ, IF I LOOSE ANY MORE C I WILL DIE ASAP" and then it does everything it can to return oxidized version of C (dehydroascorbic acid) to its reduced (active) form and bring it back to circulation. Thats why you can live 6 monhts or more without any C input without dying of scurvy. Plus, bifidobacteria make small amounts of C, enough to prevent scurvy (if you have them, [looking at antibiotics now]). Massive dying of sailors was exactly because of it - high stress in limited space, with no C.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:53 PM

That depends on what you want to achieve as was my original answer - if you want to kill virus, its useless, if you want to prevent scurvy or reduce smoking damage its not 100% useless.

368568eb91f1b58d2f52c9c566d331b5
182 · September 22, 2011 at 2:52 PM

Tablets are "useless"? Less effective perhaps, but hardly useless.

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78427 · September 24, 2011 at 6:21 AM

OK, since that generated lot of noise, I changed 'usless' to 'not very effective due to the small dose'

368568eb91f1b58d2f52c9c566d331b5
182 · September 23, 2011 at 6:21 PM

Again, less effective but not useless, as was my original and only point.

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78427 · September 25, 2011 at 2:49 PM

I updated the 'dosage' section.

368568eb91f1b58d2f52c9c566d331b5
182 · September 26, 2011 at 7:43 PM

I hardly see how suggesting a correction is a "lot of noise". Regardless, the post is highly informative. Appreciate your effort.

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78427 · September 27, 2011 at 6:45 AM

It was not only you who had questions about it and you made a good point when I thought about it more.

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 12:56 PM

Or http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/23/6/726.abstract?ijkey=8e24d04964b04fb2465bd084c2997438433d1881&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

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78427 · September 27, 2011 at 6:44 AM

It was not only you who had questions about it.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4
20411 · September 29, 2011 at 12:03 PM

Also note that a side effect of Vit. C is raised blood glucose levels - this is important information for diabetics!

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 12:55 PM

Diabetics need vitamin C, just search Pubmed. Also, its well known that vitamin C interferes with medical devices and finger meters because they have similar molecular formula. See for instance http://www.sportron.co.za/resourceLib/ResearchArticles/Inhibition%20of%20Protein%20Glycation%20and%20advanced%20Glycation%20end%20products%20by%20Ascorbic%20Acids.pdf

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78427 · October 03, 2011 at 9:56 AM

Here is another one, http://faculty.washington.edu/ely/Glycation88.html

1deaea445ff3b1cb5d1354a043dc8fb7
275 · April 17, 2013 at 3:17 PM

do i need to keep the powder in a dark place due to it being light sensitive, or is that only went mixed?

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8
78427 · September 18, 2011 at 9:12 PM

Name

Coenzyme Q10

Form

  • Ubiquinone, regularly found in supplements, very bad absorption, < 10%.
  • Ubiquinol, the reduced form of CoQ10. Claims are it is better absorbed.
  • Idebenone, synthetic analog which is the best form.

Delivery

  • Tablet
  • As powder.
  • Via lipid containing capsule, most often in plant oil or MCT
  • As liposome.
  • Via number of proprietary technologies - SelfCaps, proliposome etc..

Price

  • ~$5 - $15 regular price for low quality forms
  • $15 - $20 for better forms
  • $50 - $100 for best forms

Dosage

Half-life: 34 hours

TTP: 5-6 hours

  • Age < 30, 0mg
  • 30 < Age < 40, 30 mg
  • Age > 40, 50 - 300mg, depending on many factors like sport activities, disease states etc.
  • Doses up to 1.2g are considered safe.

Reason

  • Because endogenous production and metabolism is reduced with aging and food intake can be 5mg at best.
  • Because endogenous biosynthesis is 17 step process and involves number of resources. Probability of deficiency is thus extremely high.
  • The UV light and temperature together have a great effect on coenzyme Q10 stability.
  • Mitochondrial support. Hence, essential for organs with biggest mitochondrial count, like heart. Improves hypertension and can prevent congestive heart failure. Brings energy levels up. Essential for stressed periods, intensive works, sleepless nights.
  • Incrases HDL, lowers hbA1C
  • Used for neurodegenerative and neuromuscular disorders.
  • Improves oral health - periodontal disease, gingivitis etc.
  • Antioxidant.

Interactions

  • Statin users are depleted of CoQ10 because it is cholesterol derivative. Similar for beta blockers. Must use!.

Side effects

LD-50: 4g/kg

  • None. Body creates it and its found naturally in food in small amounts.

Where to buy

  • Jarrow Formulas Q-Absorb - best price, very good quolity, price/quality ratio highest. Uses japanese Q10.
  • Solgar Nutri Nano Q10 - Lipospheric, extremely expensive, just for rich bastards.
  • Japan powder. Japan is the leading expert in CoQ10 and antyhing not comming from them is questionable.
  • Super Ubiquinol CoQ10 with Enhanced Mitochondrial Support by LEF. WIth some extra staff (shilajit, also known as mumijo)
  • Regular every day formulations and small doses are useless and waste of money.

Notes

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930
5232 · September 18, 2011 at 9:23 PM

"Co q10 has a similar chemical structure to vitamin K, a vitamin involved in the ability of blood to clot. Co q10 may antagonize the effects of anti-clotting medications such as warfarin or heparin. Co q10 may increase the effects of dopamine, so it may interact with medications that increase dopamine. These drugs are often used to treat depression and Parkinson's disease."

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4
20411 · September 19, 2011 at 2:06 PM

Especially important for anyone on a statin or after quitting statins - since statins deplete CoQ10.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:24 PM

Totally agree. .

A64ed062eb5e2c3407122fcf16c5de6b
705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:21 PM

Excellent overview! Even more: http://examine.com/supplements/Coenzyme+Q10/

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 7:27 AM

OK, page is updated. Last one from me.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 4:23 PM

Also, vitamin C studies used meaningless single a day doses (like 100mg - 500mg once a day). From basic pharmacology is certain that such treatment is meaningless, yet it showed benefit in certain groups of people (small one tho).

785efa3950951957e65fa17efb25b078
452 · September 21, 2011 at 2:02 PM

majkinetor - Examine.com is a group site ... if you find something missing or an error with something, you should post an update. Makes it better for everyone.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM

I don't find that site particularly good. First, it lists single meta study as rebuttal of efficiency while most of those meta studies are either useless as they mix different types of supplementation to much or are rebutted.

368568eb91f1b58d2f52c9c566d331b5
182 · September 22, 2011 at 7:07 PM

Then again, maybe not - http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011897 "primary CoQ10 deficiencies should be treated with CoQ10 supplementation but not with short-tail ubiquinone analogs, such as idebenone or CoQ2"

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:03 AM

Thx for the paper, I will read it. However, I know one interesting property of Idebenone - in hyphoxic conditions CoQ10 turns to be radical, while idebenone is still protective. Check out this site http://www.achaf.org/us/coq10idebenone.html. It doesn't list references but I doubt they are imagined and should be easy to find.

368568eb91f1b58d2f52c9c566d331b5
182 · September 22, 2011 at 6:56 PM

Idebenone is sold at iherb. It's cheaper than Ubiquinone, which is supposedly less effective.

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78427 · September 23, 2011 at 7:08 AM

Also, idebenone is considered nootropic, like Piracetam.

Ae8946707ddebf0f0bfbcfc63276d823
9402 · December 02, 2012 at 7:38 PM

"food intake can be 5mg at best" - what if you eat heart? I believe 1kg of beef heart has 113 mg of CoQ10.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b
6
24538 · September 21, 2011 at 10:37 AM

1) Name: Magnesium

1a) Which form or format:

Magnesium Citrate, Magnesium Oil (Magnesium Chloride Brine), Magnesium Flakes (Magnesium Chloride), Magnesium Taurate, Angstrom Magnesium, Magnesium Malate, Epsom Salts

1b) Typical cost: $3-40

2) Why anyone would want to take it?

Our soils once had abundant magnesium that was picked up by whatever we grew in it. Due to commercial farming, and limited soil inputs, the levels started declining dramatically in the early/mid 1900's. Proposals for supplementation were actually made to the US congress in the 1930's because of the "expanding waistlines" of the US population related to magnesium deficiency (Ha! We thought it was bad then!). The vast majority of us are deficient in magnesium unless it is intentionally supplemented.

Magnesium is necessary for 325 enzymatic functions in the body, aids in insulin sensitivity, is required to keep our bones strong and flexible, keeps our arteries and soft tissue free from calcification by blocking excess calcium from gathering where it ought not be, reduces our chance of muscle spasms (including heart attack), treats restless leg syndrome, treats migraines, helpful for fibromyalgia, improves and prevents mitral valve prolapse, prevents and treats pre-eclampsia, for 80% of people works as a sleep aid when taken at bedtime (the remaining 20% can experience a paradoxical stimulating effect), important for mental health and well being (helps with anxiety and depression), helpful in treating asthma, and reduces our chance of oxalate kidney stones.

2a) Dosage amount.

The RDA is 300-400mg., but what is needed for optimal health is closer to double that for adults.

3) Interactions

  • May be problematic with caesarean section.

  • May interfere with absorption of antibiotics, ACE inhibitors H2 blockers. Take 2 hours after.

  • May make oragl hypoglycemics more effective when used, increasing the risk of hypoglycemia

4) Link to site that sells it

http://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Oil-64-1-9-Liquid/dp/B002I5LO2S

http://www.amazon.com/Thorne-Research-Cal-Mag-Citrate-Effervescent/dp/B005HXPE0Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=beauty&ie=UTF8&qid=1316599638&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Angstrom-Minerals-Magnesium-8-ozs/dp/B004PJIP2W/ref=sr_1_1?s=beauty&ie=UTF8&qid=1316599763&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Epsom-Salt-16-Oz/dp/B0011WFOSO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316600871&sr=8-1

5) Side effects

Taken orally many forms of magnesium can have a laxative effect, there is no point in taking more than bowel tolerance allows for, or you will be flushing your supplement down the toilet, literally. People with impaired kidney function should always work closely with a doctor if they choose to supplement with magnesium. Can also have an antacid effect, and reduce stomach acid to the point of disturbing digestion, should be taken away from meals. Magnesium Citrate has been associated with vivid and sometimes disturbing dreams. Magnesium Oil when applied to the skin can itch, but the itching is harmless (under the arms and feet seem to be the least itchy places). Several forms of chelated magnesium like magnesium aspartate can cause a worsening of depressive symptoms.

6) Notes

For best results make sure calcium to magnesium ratio is 2:1 to 1:1 in the diet.

Most oral forms of magnesium require good digestive juices to be broken down, Angstrom Magnesium is absorbed straight into the blood stream sublingually, and is recommended for people with weak digestion.

Epsom Salts and Magnesium Chloride Flakes both are readily absorbed into the body when added to bathwater, also good for a post workout soak to prevent sore muscles.

7) Non-Supplement Sources

Leafy greens, halibut, pumpkin seeds, and seaweed are particularly rich in magnesium. Mineral water and "hard water" are also good sources. Also absorbed through the skin when swimming in the ocean.

For more Paleo hacks: http://paleohacks.com/questions/65801/the-ultimate-supplemental-paleohacks-thread#ixzz1YZumbDEY

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1811 · September 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM

"May be problematic with caesarean section"... huh?

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24538 · September 21, 2011 at 6:06 PM

I will add mg malate to the list, I missed that one, seems to be indicated for fybromyalgia too. And @m I'll fix the calcium blocking bit, you are correct on that one.

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1811 · September 21, 2011 at 1:33 PM

What about Magnesium malate form?

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 5:27 PM

@Pocket Groket, yeah, keep that in mind :P

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 12:07 PM

Added interactions.

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 11:59 AM

"directing calcium to where it ought to be" is IMO a wrong description. K2 does that. Mg is calcium channel blocker.

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1436 · September 21, 2011 at 5:22 PM

Name: Vitamin K2

Form: MK-4/MK-7

Cost: 16$/90 doses (LEF Brand)

Reason prevent heart disease, ensure healthy skin, dental health, form strong bones, promote brain function, support growth and development and helping to prevent cancer

Dosage amount:

Low: 100MCG MK-7

Moderate: 100 mcg MK-4, 100 mcg MK-7

High: 5mg MK-4

(source:perfect health diet supplement recommendations)

Interactions Synergistic with Vitamin A and Vitamin D.

Where to Buy LEF K2 Complex Thorne K2 liquid

Side effects: If you are taking Warfarin (Coumadin), vitamin K can interfere with its anti-clotting activity

Notes Highest food sources: Natto, Egg Yolks, Goose Liver, Fermented Cheeses

Additional links:

http://chriskresser.com/vitamin-k2-the-missing-nutrient

http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/x-factor-is-vitamin-k2

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?cat=36

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/11/can-vitamin-k2-reverse-arterial.html

Vitamin K2 contents of Meat, Dairy, and Fast Food in the US Diet http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2userfiles/place/12354500/articles/jafc54_463-467.pdf

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1159 · September 26, 2011 at 4:18 PM

Don't forget teeth :P

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3521 · September 29, 2011 at 9:32 PM

egg yolk??? I checked it out on cron-o-meter and it doesn't seem to contain that much vitamin k.

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1436 · September 29, 2011 at 10:41 PM

ROB, Yes. See the link I just added to the USDA food sources of K2. I think cron-o-meter is using the USDA database which only measures K1.

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1471 · October 01, 2011 at 2:15 AM

Someone commented (on AMAZON) that the LEF K2 is derived from NATTO which is from SOY. So this may cause problems for soy sensitive. But if we are to try to stay away from soy, what problems could this cause us in taking this brand of supplement?

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1436 · October 01, 2011 at 3:29 PM

I use the LEF brand. Natto is the highest food source of K2 so it makes sense that it's derived from it. Personally, I don't have any problem consuming feremented soy. If you do have issue, I would recommend looking at the thorne research product which is soy-free AFIAK.

968d4e6be49c09d26b6cc25a4bec84e3
0 · May 21, 2012 at 4:38 AM

Hey how about Dr. Mercola? Doesn't he get any love here? http://products.mercola.com/vitamin-k/ I take his K2 and it's pretty good.

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4
345 · December 20, 2011 at 7:44 PM

Okay- so you may delete this post because I am going to go off the prescribed format a bit...but here goes.

My favorite supplements and why. First let me say that the efficacy of these supplements are not "in my opinion" they are all very well tested, yet sadly quiet unknown to the general public. I am not including all of their properties and how much to take because I really recommend investigating such things for oneself. :) <3

  1. Turmeric- A spice largely found in Indian Food and curry. It has almost too many positive applications to mention. It has antiviral, antibacterial and anti fungal properties. (Also tastes great) (Considered as a possible Tx for some cancers)

  2. Cinnamon- Great for helping to keep blood sugars level when you are adding back in carbs. An absolute must for Type 2 diabetics

  3. CoQ10- as mentioned above

  4. B-vitamins (Stress complex) helps the body burn food for fuel more efficiently.

  5. Milk Thistle- An amazing supplement which should be explored by anyone having any liver issues AT ALL. It has an amazing superpower to heal liver disease.

These are some of my favorites to keep around. Please do some research on each of them. I often resort to Turmeric instead of antibiotics whenever I have a need.

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25467 · September 26, 2011 at 4:04 PM

Here you go maj......http://jackkruse.com/what-are-the-top-ten-paleo-supplements/

Nice question

Plus one.

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 11:11 PM

Good doctor.... :)

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78427 · September 26, 2011 at 5:30 PM

I asked your opinion on Piracetam, not general supplementation. Piracetam is in the core of your domain.

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25467 · September 30, 2011 at 12:14 AM

Maj.....you are their butterfly effect. Take the complement.

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25467 · September 27, 2011 at 12:22 AM

i use this for my antiaging patients. Lots of interesting effects on mitochondria. I like it.

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78427 · September 27, 2011 at 2:32 PM

BTW, your page sux :P Without dose, nothing really matters... there is a difference between 10mg, 30mg and 300mg of CoQ10 making one effective and other useless, just as taking 10mg and 400mg antibiotic. Frequency is equally important. Thx for the answer doc :)

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25467 · September 28, 2011 at 12:51 AM

Cant say i disagree maj.....but i cant practice medicine on the net. But i can hypothetically answer questions posed to me in comments:)

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25467 · September 29, 2011 at 1:51 AM

Maj I added them for you in the post.....and a couple of other pearls for Ubiquinol too.

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78427 · September 29, 2011 at 11:15 PM

And please, don't do it for me... do it for the sake of the kids and future digital generations :D

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78427 · September 28, 2011 at 5:19 AM

Doc, this is soemething you don't know. I come from open source world. We practice open information on the net and I think its possible for the medicine too. What prevents you to put typical dosages and few untypical ? I agree that time might be a problem, but then, you have lots of info on your site and quality vs quantity was always a good principle to follow. Answering questions might be counterproductive to be honest, its better to let 'knowledgeable users' to do that.

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25467 · September 28, 2011 at 7:22 PM

Maj......I think I will compromise with you. I will call it the Maj dosing.......i will add it to the blog sometime in the next few days.

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919 · September 20, 2011 at 9:00 AM

And what about D3 for those of us in the Northern hemisphere?

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1363 · September 21, 2011 at 1:18 PM

Pretty much I think you should take D3 in southern hemisphere because you should avoid too much sun because of the high UV factor. I try to avoid the sun by wearing lots of sunscreen when I'm outdoors in Australia. Its kinda a given because i feel like everyone I know in Australia over age 60 has at least one skin cancer. Some people are like no, but usually people with darker skin and Asian heritage don't seem to agree, but I wouldn't think they would have as much trouble with burning as descendants from Europe, england, scotland, etc.

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705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:22 PM

http://examine.com/supplements/Vitamin+D/

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24538 · September 20, 2011 at 9:15 AM

What about our Southern hemisphere hackers? If it is needed from Santa Barbara north, wouldn't it be needed in Sydney and Christchurch too?

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 12:25 PM

I imagine there are lot of D3 experts here, given the publicity it recently got. I could, but I already did 3 supplements so far.

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1363 · September 21, 2011 at 1:18 PM

And by too much sun I mean laying out for longer than an hour or so in midday more than one a week or so.

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16131 · September 21, 2011 at 2:22 AM

1) Common name of supplement Phosphatidylserine

1a) Which form or format (if it has multiple) is recommended & why, (This is often very confusing)

mportant member of the phospholipid nutrient family

1b) Typical cost

$19.2 for 100 90 mg caps

2) Why anyone would want to take it?

The clear choice for healthy mental function A vital component of neurotransmitters that delivers superior mental nourishment Keeps brain working at top speed by helping to maintain cell integrity

ALSO GREAT FOR LOWERING CORTISOL

2a) Dosage amount.

@300 mg a day

3) Interactions with other supplements?

none known

4) Link to site that sells it

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU289/ItemDetail

5) Side effects

6) Notes

For mental nourishment and brain health, try Swanson Phosphatidylserine! An important member of the phospholipid nutrient family, phosphatidylserine is essential to the structure and function of cellular membranes. PS is found in particularly high amounts in cell membranes and brain tissue, which is why researchers have investigated its benefits for mental nourishment.

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78427 · September 21, 2011 at 11:56 AM

cow brains and soy lecithin and lamb's kidneys Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_get_phosphatidylserine_from_food_sources#ixzz1YaTisgB3

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452 · September 21, 2011 at 2:03 PM

http://examine.com/supplements/Phosphatidylserine/ - commonly found in mackeral

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24538 · September 21, 2011 at 7:03 AM

Do you happen to know what it is derived from and/or food sources?

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16131 · September 27, 2011 at 1:19 AM

Thank you for the recommendation THeOrigianKazl. I buy from Swansons because their national brands are also less expensive. I have not yet taken phosphatadidyle serine, but I will if I can source non soy. THX!

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800 · September 27, 2011 at 12:50 AM

Meredith, excellent start. You may wish to edit/expand using the information in my post in the adaptogens thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/12136/has-anyone-tried-adaptogens#axzz1Z6pRdpEn Both Swansons and Vitacost.com carry soy derived PS conjugated with DHA (look for Sharp PS Gold in the ingredients)

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 9:59 AM

Name

Piracetam

Form

There is only this form. There are other substances in racetam family, however.

Dosage

Half Life: 4-5 hours

TTP: 30-40 minutes

  • 400mg - 6g.
  • Some people benefit the most from microdoses - ~100mg, some used very large doses (~10-20g, doses typically used for epileptic myoclonus with impressive effects.)
  • Should be started with attack dose - much larger doses in first few days.

Reasons

  • Promotes oxygenation of brain and prevents hyphoxia induced damage. Generally used with stroke patients to promote healing and as prevention as it significantly promotes survival in hyphoxic conditions.
  • Improves cholinergic system efficiency. Muscarinic receptors are found in both the central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system, in heart, lungs, upper GI tract and sweat glands. Theoretically, Piracetam may improve digestion. Acetylcholine causes the muscle of the digestive organs to squeeze with more force and increase the "push" of food and juice through the digestive tract.
  • Enhances cognition and memory.
  • Increase communication between the two hemispheres of the brain, and increases activity of the corpus callosum.
  • Improves mitochondrial function in brain.
  • Enhancement of brain metabolism.
  • Enhances oxidative glycolysis.
  • Positive effects of the cerebral microcirculation and increase in cerebral blood ???ow
  • Slightly lowers blood pressure.
  • Improves sleep and vividness of dreams.
  • Improves psychological functions such as improved motivation, less sleep disturbance, better attention and less depression.
  • Anti-aging
  • See more here or here.

Delivery

  • Capsules, usually 400 or 800 mg.
  • Powder

Price

  • $3-$20 for 60 capsules of 400-800 mg depending on manufacturer.
  • $10-$30 for 100g powder

Side effects

LD-50: Not determined

  • All reported at a frequency of less than 10%
  • May induce choline deficiency. Eat eggs or supplement lechitin (soy, shiitake) which you should do anyway.
  • Constipation.
  • Can induce insomnia [constructive one]. You may not want to use it before sleep. Many people find it helps them wake up.
  • Because of piracetam???s extensive use as a cognitive enhancer, there is considerable experience of its clinical tolerability, at least at low dosages. The drug seems well tolerated, and even in placebo- controlled trials, adverse effects were often reported at a greater frequency with placebo than with the active drug [From: The Treatment of Epilepsy - Piracetam]
  • The drug readily crosses the placenta and into breast milk, it should probably be avoided in pregnancy and lactation

Where to buy

Interactions

  • Synergy with choline, hydergine, ginko.

Notes

  • Never lose your car keys again.
  • Effects should be seen after 1 month or more of usage.
  • Some people are unresponsive. Try dose tweaking.
  • Non-toxic.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM

This is one of those rare gems of BigPharma.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 4:04 PM

CoQ10 is found in food, Piracetam is completely synthetic.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:27 PM

Please define seriously compromised.

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5853 · September 19, 2011 at 7:13 PM

I get my coq10 from lamb and beef heart. I really dont want another pill. Perhaps for K2 but not for coq10.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 10:57 AM

As of June 2006, piracetam is sold in the United States as a dietary supplement

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:13 AM

BTW, if you nor eating that heart raw and in the dark, there is lots of chance you don't get it. The UV light and temperature together have a great effect on coenzyme Q10 stability.

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10919 · September 19, 2011 at 10:34 AM

Is it found in nature? Ive never heard of it

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 12:00 PM

I'm not convinced it's completely harmless. My intestinal health got seriously compromised after starting piracetam, choline bitartrate, ALA, ALCAR and vitamin B supplementation. Since I don't know if any of these substances caused it I may be biased, but I don't think it was a coincidence. Considering that many people don't even notice a difference or do better on microdoses, I suspect Piracetam is not worth it for healthy individuals and a paleo diet yields better cognitive effects. Besides, it's merely as old as high fructose corn syrup and doesn't qualify as a paleo supplement.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 9:59 AM

@Quilt, this is your domain, perhaps you could provide some input, meh ?

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 6:54 PM

"That something completely synthetic is harmful needs to be proven and the same goes for natural stuff." It's not the harmfulness that needs to be proven but the harmlessness.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:01 PM

The difference between prescription and supplement is political, there is no such difference on chemical level.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:23 AM

Almost everything is not completely understood including bunch of things used every day like anesthesia, medical marijuana or paracetamol.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 6:53 PM

I never said it was "toxic". A substance doesn't have to be toxic to be problematic. With a substance's mechanism being not completely understood, it's foolish to assume complete safety. You're playing with the nervous system's chemical balance after all.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:29 AM

BTW, Almost everything is not completely understood including bunch of things used every day like anesthesia, medical marijuana or paracetamol with water being almost completely unknown to us.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:02 PM

The difference between drug and supplement is political, it doesn't exist on chemical level.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 10:51 AM

No. Its synthetic substance with long history of usage. Its non-toxic property made new class of drugs - nootropics.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:30 PM

I don't see relevance of how old is it comparing to HFCS.... CoQ10 is the same age for instance. The fact is that Piracetam is extensively used. Its so much used that its cost in most pharmacies is almost symbolic.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 3:57 PM

I developed symptoms of ulcerative proctitis ten days after starting those supplements. It later showed to be small intestinal bacterial overgrowth with all it's effects. So what got compromised was probably my gut flora, small intestinal motility or both. I don't have amalgam fillings. Many medications extensively used can be harmful. That actually defines a medicine. Piracetam is prescription only in some countries. I'm not saying it is as harmful as other medications also widely used. I'm not saying it alone is what caused my condition, who would know? What I said you can read above.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 11:57 AM

I'm not convinced it's completely harmless. My intestinal health got seriously compromised after starting piracetam, choline bitartrate, ALA, ALCAR and vitamin B supplementation. Since I don't know if any of these substances caused it I may be biased, but I don't think it was a coincidence. Considering that many people don't even notice a difference or do better on microdoses, I suspect Piracetam is not worth it for healthy individuals and a paleo diet yields better cognitive effects. Besides, it's merely as old as high fructose corn syrup and doesn't quality as a paleo supplement.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 11:01 AM

No. Its synthetic substance with long history of usage. Its non-toxic property made new class of drugs - nootropics. As of June 2006, piracetam is sold in the United States as a dietary supplement. Its one of the rare gems produced by "Big Pharma" :)

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 3:56 PM

I developed symptoms of ulcerative proctitis ten days after starting those supplements. It later showed to be small intestinal bacterial overgrowth with all it's effects. So what got compromised was probably my gut flora, small intestinal motility or both. I don't have amalgam fillings. Many medications extensively used can be harmful. That actually defines a medicine. Piracetam is prescription only in some countries. I'm not saying it is as harmful as other medications also widely used. I'm not saying it alone is what caused my condition. What I said you can read above.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:28 AM

I didn't assume complete safety, I did research Piracetam for 2 years I put my faith in it as non-toxic and highly probable unproblematic. After all, its about faith - scientists can't prove it since this is not mathematics and there are always evidence that something is harmful no matter the substance (just check with water). The same is true for low carb vs low fat diets. Science is like informed relgion in that manner - you need to put your faith at one side at the end. Check up episode of futurama - oh my science.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 2:26 PM

I disagree. Its probably coincidental. I know many people young people using it for years, without any ill effects. Its hard to rule out variables given what you take. It could be ALA for instance if you have amalgam (if we talk about Alpha Lipocic Acid, not α-linolenic acid

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:08 AM

There is no substance that is harmless - each substance is balance between positive and negative contribution to the body.

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1515 · September 19, 2011 at 3:58 PM

I developed symptoms of ulcerative proctitis ten days after starting those supplements. It later showed to be small intestinal bacterial overgrowth with all it's effects. So what got compromised was probably my gut flora, small intestinal motility or both. I don't have amalgam fillings. Many medications extensively used can be harmful. That actually defines a medicine. Piracetam is prescription only in some countries. It's probably less harmful than other medication more widely used. I'm not saying it alone is what caused my condition, who would know? What I said you can read above.

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 1:19 PM

And i do eat my heart raw, sometimes just seared or grilled on surface. I never braise it, i wonder why people do that. Also add it to stock, ground and browned, this is for flavor, i doubt theres much nutrtion left after the stock is done, but cant hurt. Lamb hearts are very convient in size. Sometimes i get Elk and deer heart from my hunter friend, liver too. Finnish wild deer liver is about the best liver i have tasted. Tastes like blueberries and lingonberries. There is very little actual liver taste. But i know that its propably not so good for you, due to the huge retinol content.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:00 PM

CoQ10 is made inside the body. That something completely synthetic is harmful needs to be proven and the same goes for natural stuff. Wheat protein is toxic. Piracetam didn't prove yet to be toxic, after 60 years of usage. Its all about evidence.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:11 AM

@Jan, why K2 then ? There is lots of it in animals and even your bacteria make form of it. You are biased.

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 1:02 PM

majkinetor: Well it depends where you live, but here in Finland even the best local eggs, beef are not pastur ed for very long during the year. They are not so rich in K2 etc... I do eat twice liver, marrow (perhaps 4 times a week) etc few times a week. Doing best i can. Its much easier for you guys who live in warmer climates.

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 2:02 PM

Perhaps not important, but until i see concrete evidence that TC of 360-460 is great, certainly didnt make me feel like superman, i rather have it at somewhere 250.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:18 AM

Thats one of the points of supplementation - when something dies the beneficial subsatances die with it soon. When you cook something that is already dead for some time, you kill what remained faster. When you cut it with you knife and expose it to lite and oxygen .... you got it... take your supplement.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 1:25 PM

I supplement K2, although I eat lot of butter and my digestion is fine. Its extremely safe. The point was that not about K2 anyway. Also, TC is not important for 99% of us, the people need to stop talking about it like it is the worst thing in the world. Cholesterol is generally protective.

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78427 · September 19, 2011 at 5:03 PM

I agree that Piracetam is not useful for some people. Some, are highly responsive. Perhaps its dose tweaking perhaps something else. Some people feel real benefits for some time then they diminish to zero. Its on try and see basis. Everyone wishing to use it need education.

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5853 · September 20, 2011 at 1:09 PM

I will order Reindeer meat for winter, its quite pricy meat, since its basicly pastered wild meat in Lapland. But i guess its perfect food for a scandinavians, we evolved eating it. Cows cant survive during winter outside so its not so paleoish solution. Reindeer meat is more mufa fat too, perhaps i am eating too much SFA for my genes. I do know that dairy fat spike my TC like crazy, not happy about that. Certainly far from optimal.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 7:59 AM

Oh, and yes, playing with Vitamin D can destroy you. It activates 10% of your genome, its not understood completely, its a hormone ffs, and its a rat poison. Go figure.

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78427 · September 20, 2011 at 5:10 AM

Chocolate is also playing with your neurotransmiters (serotonin), as much as sugar (opiate receptors), nicotine (playing with similar receptors as Piracetam actually), marijuana (cannabinoid) etc...

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78427 · September 28, 2011 at 5:23 AM

In Serbia, its sell as a drug and its not available over the counter but since its so well known, they give it to anybody anyway. Here is the place where you can order some, don't ask how good they are, but I ordered few times from them: http://smart-drugs.net.

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1960 · September 28, 2011 at 4:44 AM

I've checked GNC, a big chain pharmacy and an organic grocery store -- and no one's heard of Piracetam. Is there a reputable online source?

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78427 · September 28, 2011 at 5:26 AM

Ah, yes, order Nootropil, its the best known.

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25467 · October 01, 2011 at 10:36 AM

Most humans are K2 deficient. I just got a great question about it on my blog and post two studies I know of that talks about that very issue. Thanks for the discussion about Reindeer meat. I had no idea. When I visit Sweden soon I will try to get some.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117
25467 · October 01, 2011 at 10:37 AM

Piracetam is not a US based supplement. It is in Europe. Many doctors are using it in a longevity practice. I am quite aware of it.

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1960 · September 18, 2011 at 8:04 PM

1) Common name of supplement: Fish Oil

1a) Which form or format (if it has multiple) is recommended & why? Liquid. My understanding is that it has better bio-availability in this form.

1b) Typical cost: $38 for 10 oz bottle (This is what I get it for from my gym; website puts it at $49.99.), which will last a month, if you take 2 tsp/day.

2) Why anyone would want to take it? Great for recovery and keeping those Omega-3:6 ratios healthy. Plus it tastes great, and my trainer swears by it.

2a) Dosage amount: 2 tsp/day (equates to ~5400 mg of EPA and DHA)

3) Interactions with other supplements? None that I'm aware of.

4) Buy: SO3 Super Omega-3 Oil

Great question! -- hope it turns into a great resource!

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1960 · September 20, 2011 at 3:50 PM

Thanks for the site!

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1906 · September 19, 2011 at 1:21 PM

Wouldn't the recommended version be fermented cod liver oil blended with butter oil, in gel form?

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705 · September 20, 2011 at 2:21 PM

http://examine.com/supplements/Fish+Oil/

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094
78427 · September 20, 2011 at 8:03 AM

Pretty bad description IMO... there is so much in fish oil including potential toxicity.

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