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Teeth aren't Remineralizing -- What's Missing?

by (40)
Updated about 2 hours ago
Created August 18, 2013 at 7:32 AM

I'm reaching a 6 months period of strict Paleo. I literally didn't cheat once since the beginning of March.

It seems like I managed to enhance my body quite bit, even overcame hypothyroid symptoms. No constipation anymore, clear thinking, lot of vitality, skin is great... I'm on the right track that's for sure.

However, no matter what I do, my cavities just won't go away. There's not even a sign of reminerlization, that something is actually recovering back there, and I swear at times it even seems to get bigger.

Besides eating very strictly & balanced, I also supplement with GP's FCLO/Butter Oil every day for the past 4 months or so. That in itself is surprising, after reading so many testimonies of recovering after only a month. Oil Pulling every morning for 20 min, at times before bed aswell. Not using a toothpaste since going Paleo. My general mouth condition is awesome. Waking up in the morning I don't even feel the need to brush, no gum bleeding/bruises whatsoever. Taking eggshell calcium (in ACV). Two weeks now on homemade Kefir, cup/day. Bone Broths, Greens, Maca Root, Sauerkraut, Kelp, Himalayas Sea Salt... been adding & trying so many things (simultaneously), nothing works. Frustrating!

The cavities should be rather new. I didn't even notice them before going Paleo, and my latest visit to the dentist about 2 years ago didn't reveal even one. Considering such things aren't developing in one day, I'd say they are rather new.

I thought that maybe I lack in calcium, but I read in several places around here that calcium intake is overrated, and we don't really need to strive to the recommended 1000mg/day, especially if we're not consuming ingredients that depletes our bones out of calcium (such as sugar).

Another option is Vitamin D. After my latest blood test revealed extremely low on the vitamin, I dragged myself out to the sun every day for full body 30 min exposure without soap washing afterwards. Beforehand I barely saw the sun. I've been doing it for 2 months now, so I wonder if it's enough to restore my storage. I do feel much better ever since, so it should be rising.

The options as I see it is either I do really miss something, or the recovery process is just much slower for whatever reason. Either way, it would really help to know where I'm standing. The FCLO/Butter Oil is extremely pricey, and if I'm taking it in vain it's a bummer. I can't really feel healthy unless my teeth are top notch. What do you guys think?

Medium avatar
0 · June 01, 2014 at 5:37 AM

Maybe it's too early in the morning, but I don't understand this part: "You don't shampoo, you're ruining your hair. You don't brush with a toothpaste, you're ruining your teeth. That's what I'm referring to -- You DON'T need shampoo, toothpaste or any such product to maintain a healthy body."

In one sentence you say you do need these products, in the next one you say you don't.

So what is it that you are saying? Maybe it's only me who can't follow your logic, would you please enlighten me?

Medium avatar
0 · June 01, 2014 at 5:28 AM

How is this Sensodyine toothpaste working for you? This is what my boyfriend keeps recommending to me (who has studied pharmacology, and despite of his not-too-healthy diet with lots of sugar etc, he is way healthier, better and younger looking than most men in his age, so I am considering listening to him in this)

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1363 · August 24, 2013 at 7:04 PM

then eat non grassfed liver.

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10490 · August 22, 2013 at 7:21 PM

I can read. But your mouth is not healthy. It is one thing to maintain a healthy mouth without it (though I would even argue that) but your mouth is already diseased. You need to treat the disease.

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40 · August 20, 2013 at 8:18 PM

Read again. The cavities are PRE-Paleo.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d
10490 · August 20, 2013 at 7:12 PM

But your mouth is not healthy. You have cavities. Simple. I do agree though that shampoo is not necessary for physical health.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 20, 2013 at 8:04 AM

My logic is valid as long as you stay on topic. Look where you took the discussion -- Social Conduct. Grooming. Hygiene. We are not talking here about whether it is socially acceptable or not; we're talking about a necessity to one's actual body function. Shampoo/Toothpaste nowadays isn't just about being clean or smelling good -- It's about HEALTH. You don't shampoo, you're ruining your hair. You don't brush with a toothpaste, you're ruining your teeth. That's what I'm referring to -- You DON'T need shampoo, toothpaste or any such product to maintain a healthy body. Simple.

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10490 · August 19, 2013 at 7:42 PM

They don't use any toothpaste... *facepalm*

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d
10490 · August 19, 2013 at 3:31 PM

While humans are animals, we do not live like any other animal out there. Animal are often stinky. It is not socially acceptable for humans in most modern places to be stinky. Some animals groom themselves with their mouths. Others do not sweat and therefore they require less or different grooming. Your logic is invalid.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 19, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Matt, that's not a valid analogy, sorry. Without doctors your body can STILL function properly; in theory you can go a lifetime without it. Once something is messed up, you got a specialist (/medicine) to take care of you. HOWEVER, claiming that this is the same as using Shampoo or Toothpaste regularly, is plain wrong. When an animal is hurt, if it's severe enough -- it'll die. And what about an animal's fur? Do animals use Shampoo? Does it really make sense that humans are dependant upon MODERN products to take care of themselves? Nature ingredients for enhancement -- Yes. Dependency? Nope.

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41452 · August 19, 2013 at 11:55 AM

I imagine that I'll need work done when I go in next, but I wasn't giving the asshole dentist my business. He was awful.

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10490 · August 19, 2013 at 10:44 AM

It can seem however it wants. Without objective measurement, how it seems is meaningless. That is just not the reality of the situation, however these NaturalNews types would like to view it. @ Matt, certainly there are some dentists out there who are a little trigger happy. Demineralization it does not need to be filled. But that's a far cry from an actual cavity.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 19, 2013 at 7:50 AM

It goes the other way around, there are days it seems to get smaller ;)

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41452 · August 19, 2013 at 4:26 AM

When I get insurance again, I'll get a checkup and take whatever action is necessary at that point. Being broke and uninsured, I'm going to let nature take its course, and hopefully better diet and better hygiene does the trick.

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41452 · August 19, 2013 at 4:25 AM

I don't think dentists all have the same standards for cavities and what needs filling. My childhood/adult dentist commented about some demineralization, but nothing needing action. My first dentist in adulthood made no comment about the demineralization and give me a good 'score' when it comes to dental health. I had another dentist (a younger guy) who demanded I get 7+ fillings put in (a mere 6 months after my excellent checkup) with, if anything, even better dental hygiene on my part. Haven't been back to the dentist since, again, uninsured, so it has to wait.

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10490 · August 18, 2013 at 8:47 PM

Demineralized spots or carious lesions can be "remineralized" but cavities cannot be healed. Once the enamel is fully breached, game over.

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41452 · August 18, 2013 at 4:59 PM

No doctors then either, eh? Paleo is not about abandoning modern medicine. If you want to do reenactment bullshit, go live in the jungle and sport a rabbit pelt loincloth.

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40 · August 18, 2013 at 4:10 PM

Well, the same reason I ditched shampoo -- It doesn't make sense that a human-being is dependant on modern products to maintain body health. Using something external to enhance bodily function, sure; but usage unless being ill -- that's nonsense. Despite my pre-Paleo cavities, my teeth, hair & skin never been healthier.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 18, 2013 at 4:06 PM

Unfortunately, while the meat quality in my country is pretty good compared to the rest of the world and heavily inspected (hormones and the like are completely forbidden), we don't have pure grassfed products at all.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 18, 2013 at 4:00 PM

Certainly did. Especially my digestive system; everything works so smooth now. About the ACV acidity, I think it's a good practice to put things into proportion, taking into consideration the ridiculous amount of acidity SAD eaters insert their body on daily basis. Roughly 4 tsps of ACV daily mixed with water should be fine, so I believe. :) I'm all about processes in this area as long as I actually know something is going forward. If you'd tell me that 1 year from today I'll have my cavities fixed, I take it with a hugh smile on my face, even if it cost me a small fortune.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41452 · August 18, 2013 at 2:40 PM

Also have to wonder why you've foregone fluoride toothpaste.

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41452 · August 18, 2013 at 1:27 PM

Remineralization might be a pipedream. I've only seem WAP types talking as if this is possible, conventional dentistry says it's not likely. I myself have been doing supplemental D & K with lots of vitamin A with the hopes of keeping everything healthy and healing some demineralized areas. Uninsured so I'm not sure what's going on now, will see the results when I'm soon gainfully employed!

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 20, 2013 at 8:04 AM

My logic is valid as long as you stay on topic. Look where you took the discussion -- Social Conduct. Grooming. Hygiene. We are not talking here about whether it is socially acceptable or not; we're talking about a necessity to one's actual body function. Shampoo/Toothpaste nowadays isn't just about being clean or smelling good -- It's about HEALTH. You don't shampoo, you're ruining your hair. You don't brush with a toothpaste, you're ruining your teeth. That's what I'm referring to -- You DON'T need shampoo, toothpaste or any such product to maintain a healthy body. Simple.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 19, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Matt, that's not a valid analogy, sorry. Without doctors your body can STILL function properly; in theory you can go a lifetime without it. Once something is messed up, you got a specialist (/medicine) to take care of you. HOWEVER, claiming that this is the same as using Shampoo or Toothpaste regularly, is plain wrong. When an animal is hurt, if it's severe enough -- it'll die. And what about an animal's fur? Do animals use Shampoo? Does it really make sense that humans are dependant upon MODERN products to take care of themselves? Nature ingredients for enhancement -- Yes. Dependency? Nope.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d
10490 · August 18, 2013 at 8:47 PM

Demineralized spots or carious lesions can be "remineralized" but cavities cannot be healed. Once the enamel is fully breached, game over.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 18, 2013 at 4:10 PM

Well, the same reason I ditched shampoo -- It doesn't make sense that a human-being is dependant on modern products to maintain body health. Using something external to enhance bodily function, sure; but usage unless being ill -- that's nonsense. Despite my pre-Paleo cavities, my teeth, hair & skin never been healthier.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41452 · August 18, 2013 at 2:40 PM

Also have to wonder why you've foregone fluoride toothpaste.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d
10490 · August 20, 2013 at 7:12 PM

But your mouth is not healthy. You have cavities. Simple. I do agree though that shampoo is not necessary for physical health.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d
10490 · August 19, 2013 at 3:31 PM

While humans are animals, we do not live like any other animal out there. Animal are often stinky. It is not socially acceptable for humans in most modern places to be stinky. Some animals groom themselves with their mouths. Others do not sweat and therefore they require less or different grooming. Your logic is invalid.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41452 · August 18, 2013 at 4:59 PM

No doctors then either, eh? Paleo is not about abandoning modern medicine. If you want to do reenactment bullshit, go live in the jungle and sport a rabbit pelt loincloth.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 20, 2013 at 8:18 PM

Read again. The cavities are PRE-Paleo.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d
10490 · August 22, 2013 at 7:21 PM

I can read. But your mouth is not healthy. It is one thing to maintain a healthy mouth without it (though I would even argue that) but your mouth is already diseased. You need to treat the disease.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d
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10490 · August 18, 2013 at 8:45 PM

Two years? That is more than enough time for cavities to form! There are some things you can do to improve your oral health, but once the enamel has been breached, it will not come back. Carious lesions can remineralize. Outright cavities cannot. Teeth are not soft tissue - they won't repair themselves the way muscle and bone will. You say you think they are getting bigger, well, they are. They will eat their way into your dentin, breach your roots. You can develop an abscess which will kill the bone in the surrounding area. It will hurt a lot. You would, at that point, need endodontic therapy and a crown, if it can still be saved. Extraction may be your only option at that point.

Please just go to the dentist. Get fillings, get crowns, whatever is necessary. Use toothpaste, a soft toothbrush, and floss.

You can have whatever ideals you want about modern things not being necessary to maintain health, and perhaps that's true. But once the problem is there, we have modern means to address them. Be "natural" in preventative care if you must, but once an actual problem presents itself, modern medicine trumps "natural remedies."

Former dental professional here. No reputable dentist believes in "remineralization" to fix cavities.

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0 · October 13, 2014 at 12:24 AM

I've had luck regrowing my dentin, but not enamel yet.

 

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0 · October 13, 2014 at 12:23 AM

"UK scientists at Bristol University and the University of Leeds Dental Institute have developed gels which can regenerate decayed or damaged tooth enamel. A peptide hydrogel is applied to the tooth. This forms into a protein scaffold onto which new enamel-forming calcium is deposited from the saliva. The scientists claim to have seen "highly significant" levels of repair in which signs of decay have been reversed months after a single application of the compound.”

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10490 · August 19, 2013 at 10:44 AM

It can seem however it wants. Without objective measurement, how it seems is meaningless. That is just not the reality of the situation, however these NaturalNews types would like to view it. @ Matt, certainly there are some dentists out there who are a little trigger happy. Demineralization it does not need to be filled. But that's a far cry from an actual cavity.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41452 · August 19, 2013 at 11:55 AM

I imagine that I'll need work done when I go in next, but I wasn't giving the asshole dentist my business. He was awful.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46
41452 · August 19, 2013 at 4:25 AM

I don't think dentists all have the same standards for cavities and what needs filling. My childhood/adult dentist commented about some demineralization, but nothing needing action. My first dentist in adulthood made no comment about the demineralization and give me a good 'score' when it comes to dental health. I had another dentist (a younger guy) who demanded I get 7+ fillings put in (a mere 6 months after my excellent checkup) with, if anything, even better dental hygiene on my part. Haven't been back to the dentist since, again, uninsured, so it has to wait.

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40 · August 19, 2013 at 7:50 AM

It goes the other way around, there are days it seems to get smaller ;)

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41452 · August 19, 2013 at 4:26 AM

When I get insurance again, I'll get a checkup and take whatever action is necessary at that point. Being broke and uninsured, I'm going to let nature take its course, and hopefully better diet and better hygiene does the trick.

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529 · August 18, 2013 at 6:41 PM

You might look into whether you have Zn or Mg deficiencies -- Zn increases salivary circulation of Ca, if I'm not recalling incorrectly. Mg is necessary for Ca absorption & also essential overall.

Apart from that, I have noticed problems with enamel degradation & a feeling of acidity when taking raw ACV (1-4 tsp/1-2 days) straight. My teeth were hardening or potentially remineralizing before experimenting with ACV but stopped and felt softer, or similar to degrading teeth (deeper pits, sensitivity where there was none). It went away completely after I stopped ingesting ACV straight, despite the potential digestion benefits.

Cocoa (chocolate) also has quite a bit of interesting research regarding protecting tooth enamel, much of which is suggesting that it's potentially more effective than fluoride. N=1, I consume homemade unsweetened chocolate daily, and it seems to harden my tooth enamel significantly. The gaps/holes also feel far less susceptible/painful, and potentially smaller than when I've forgotten to eat it.

Calcium intake being adequate might actually be a very valid concern, especially if trying to heal teeth, but I'm unsure about how to go about testing whether there's a deficiency or excess and it's absorbing properly. (As Matt pointed out in an earlier PaleoHacks question, it's entirely possible that "just get enough K2/A/D/Mg/Zn, etc., and you don't need to worry about the Ca; you'll absorb it fine." is potentially a bit too blas??.)

Out of fascination -- what is eggshell calcium, or how do you make it?

(Another possibility is that the theory that vinegar extracts Ca, etc. from bones in broth or other things like solid eggshells is in fact untrue, which would lead to a far lower calcium consumption level than you might have thought. )

There were some lab tests of bone broths which - if I recall correctly - showed little or no calcium increase in the liquid after cold & vinegar, heated 72 hrs & no vinegar, and heated 72 hrs & vinegar, as compared to the control (water & ingredients, no cooking...?). Will try to find the link to that study, as it was interesting.

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221 · August 30, 2013 at 3:31 AM

Vanilla, I have some ideas for you, based on my personal experience. I have been trying to improve my health as well. I also have the HVBO with CLO. This is what worked for me. I eat alot of meat, and I noticed one day that my teeth were hurting, it felt like they were being DE-mineralized with something. This was after brushing with toothepaste, which I had previously stopped, at the advice of the WAPF ideas. So I've stopped toothepaste again. The pain hasn't come back.

Another thing I did - I was frying ALL my meat in cast iron pans. My whole way of eating changed when I started boiling meat, like the GAPS diet. I high recommend getting a slow cooker. I always have some meat going in it. I clung on to frying meat for a long long time, but Dr Campbell Mcbride was really onto something with boiling meat (Sally Fallon also endorses the GAPS diet). I like meat is best if eaten raw/rare, or gently boiled, I now believe.

I never fry anymore. All of the pans leech something into the food: aluminum, iron, flouride from teflon, etc. One idea I had was that the cast iron was doing it, as iron competes for absorption with zinc, calcium, and other minerals. Seriously consider slow cooking, cause I resisted it for a long time but I wish I had started it a long time ago!

Another thing I do occasionally is open a probiotic capsule in my mouth, and use it like toothepaste on my tongue and teeth and everywhere. This really makes my mouth feel cleaner.

My teeth feel very strong now. My jaw and my teeth feel stronger. I feel like they have been 'remineralized,' though I wasn't primarily trying to heal any cavities, my teeth feel like they can chew and tear meat better now.

Another thing I recently got into, though this way after my teeth felt better, is organ meats. I'm big into these things now, I think they are saving my life! I had been eating liver for 6 months, but then I got into the others and they all seem to benefit the body part that you're eating. Ie, liver helps with energy, heart heals your heart, tripe heals your bowels, etc. Oh, and glycine/gelatin is a miracle, it's not really an organ meat I guess but it comes from the weird parts like feet and neck and oxtails, again part of the GAPS diet and something I've been eating for a long time. I think it's not optional for a carnivorous diet, as a diet high in muscle meats seems to increase the need for collagen even more than a high carb diet. When I don't eat it I always get intense cravings for it. I think getting the glycine is even more important than eating all those organs.

P.S. I also eat some meat raw or very rare, it is very easy on the stomach, and I think alot of b vitamins are killed by heat.

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2688 · August 29, 2013 at 11:37 PM

One thing I don't see listed in any answers - You need vitamin K2 along with A and D3 and some calcium to get any real benefit. After I read "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox", I started supplementing K2, mainly for prevention of CVD. To my great surprise after a couple of months two teeth that had minor pain after occasionally eating something sweet and/or sour and brushing, changed and the pain disappeared. The teeth became slick and pain free.

I also chew xylitol gum and use xylitol toothpaste. Xylitol tends to reduce the bacteria that cause tooth decay and raise mouth PH. I get about 10 grams of xylitol a day.

My teeth are in better shape now than a few years ago. You should also know that I have not been to the dentist in over 20 years. I just don't trust them.

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1363 · August 18, 2013 at 1:56 PM

grassfed liver.

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40 · August 18, 2013 at 4:06 PM

Unfortunately, while the meat quality in my country is pretty good compared to the rest of the world and heavily inspected (hormones and the like are completely forbidden), we don't have pure grassfed products at all.

F02990386b12528111740ad6279ba29d
1363 · August 24, 2013 at 7:04 PM

then eat non grassfed liver.

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1580 · August 19, 2013 at 6:41 PM

What toothpaste are you using? Really you want one with nanohydroxyapatite - I'm using the one from Sensodyne (repair toothpaste with 'novamin'). I sometimes put it in a dental tray and leave it on for 5 mins

Brush before and after breakfast Chew Xylitol gum after meals

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10490 · August 19, 2013 at 7:42 PM

They don't use any toothpaste... *facepalm*

Medium avatar
0 · June 01, 2014 at 5:28 AM

How is this Sensodyine toothpaste working for you? This is what my boyfriend keeps recommending to me (who has studied pharmacology, and despite of his not-too-healthy diet with lots of sugar etc, he is way healthier, better and younger looking than most men in his age, so I am considering listening to him in this)

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2319 · August 19, 2013 at 1:16 AM

Check out what Dr Ellie (dentist) has to say: http://www.drellie.com/

maybe add some birch twigs...

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1122 · August 18, 2013 at 12:46 PM

It sounds like you have improved your life greatly except for this one area. That is a real positive. Looking at your routine makes me think that the acidity of ACV has to have something to do with teeth enamel. Do you rinse after drinking? I'm sure this process takes time.

6a3b60b87ebfae385f66dcf8f53b9226
40 · August 18, 2013 at 4:00 PM

Certainly did. Especially my digestive system; everything works so smooth now. About the ACV acidity, I think it's a good practice to put things into proportion, taking into consideration the ridiculous amount of acidity SAD eaters insert their body on daily basis. Roughly 4 tsps of ACV daily mixed with water should be fine, so I believe. :) I'm all about processes in this area as long as I actually know something is going forward. If you'd tell me that 1 year from today I'll have my cavities fixed, I take it with a hugh smile on my face, even if it cost me a small fortune.

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