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Ray Peat experiences?

by (8933)
Updated about 21 hours ago
Created February 21, 2012 at 2:15 PM

EDIT : I changed to title to Ray Peat experiences? since there was some confusion about the previous title (Ray Peat failures). So, what are you experiences with Ray Peat? What symptoms improved, what got worse?


Is there anyone who failed on Ray Peat's diet by doing it right?

In this question, Cliff said (in a comment) :

Obviously the low carb didn't work for hanne either or she wouldn't be seeking out alternatives. It seems like to me the majority of people fail on low carb, I've never seen anyone fail on ray peat doing it right.

He definitely has a point that lots of people fail on low carb (though I wouldn't say the majority, since most of us do well on it for a couple of months then fail).

Danny Roddy also seems pretty confident and seems to have a Peat-solution for everything. Still, I wonder if anyone failed? I applied some of Peat's ideas to my regimen (less veggies more fruit), and I gotta say it helped a bit already.

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8933 · October 05, 2012 at 9:38 AM

Okay... did you measure temp and pulse too? If so, did it increase or not? Peat isn't a protocol, he just puts everything into context. Drinking lots of fluids is a bad idea if you're not eating adequate sodium, for example.

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0 · October 03, 2012 at 6:23 PM

can't seem to add a comment to his question?

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0 · October 03, 2012 at 4:41 PM

thanks for that

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4703 · October 03, 2012 at 2:30 PM

If you comment on his question directly he'll be more apt to respond as he will get a notification that you did so.

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11204 · September 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM

I couldn't handle milk before paleo either. I'm not sure about the eggshell calcium. I've tried a bit of it, but it is hard to stomach on a regular basis, and if I do a lot of different things at one time, I'm not sure where the increased pain is coming from. Calcium and iodine supplements appear to make the nerve in my face that likes to send messages of pain all the damn time worse.

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78422 · September 23, 2012 at 5:10 PM

Multi vitamin and fish oil.

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8933 · September 22, 2012 at 11:24 AM

You can't handle milk? Well who can, after paleo.... Aspirin, sugar and salt usually solve that. But even so, are you saying you can't handle eggshell calcium?

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8933 · September 22, 2012 at 11:22 AM

I couldn't sleep on zero-carb either, woke up every night with diarrhea, palpitations, ... Eating tons of salt helped.

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8933 · September 22, 2012 at 7:28 AM

Cool. What supps did you drop?

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78422 · September 21, 2012 at 11:10 PM

Does anyone smell bananas? Lots of Bananas? Like 30-Bananas?

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8933 · September 08, 2012 at 9:08 AM

Because there's only one way to go low-carb, Jamie.

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8933 · September 08, 2012 at 9:06 AM

I don't drink that much milk, but increasing metabolism, salt and sugar solved problems I had with it (hives, bloating). Cytomel is T3 yes, I don't seem to tolerate T4 well atm, Peat thought it might be the result of T4 accumulation due to selenium deficiency and/or liver issues. I actually got worse issues with only cynoplus than without cynoplus.

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4458 · September 08, 2012 at 2:55 AM

cytomel, is that just T3? (or is there T4 in it as well)

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5381 · September 08, 2012 at 2:41 AM

How do you know the people who fail on low carb are "doing it right"?

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1786 · September 07, 2012 at 11:11 PM

exactly right brad. i can only eat cheese and butter. and i dont do well on all the liquids, but i do great on fresh pineapples. many of the supplements do work, but again self experimentation is key. i find i do well supplementing extra acetyl groups, carnitine and choline, as well as do TCM herbs. works for me better than not doing them.

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253 · September 07, 2012 at 10:21 PM

I've been following Peat's recommendations for diet, supplementation, and lifestyle for about 1.5 months so far and seem to be improving each day. There is definitely an adjustment period, and everything is so individualized you really must take the time to self-experiment to find your own sweet spot. After exhaustive experimentation, I cannot tolerate dairy of any kind.

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4080 · May 07, 2012 at 5:50 PM

Korion - I have stopped eating oysters, I think I got food poisoning or something from them -so now I can't even think about them without feeling nauseated. I have been supplementing zinc for 3 weeks, but no changes are apparent. I am going to consider upping my sugar, recipe for the fruit candy??

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8933 · May 06, 2012 at 8:50 AM

The zinc is a popular problem with anorexic people so he might have a point, but I guess it wasn't that since you eat oysters now? The only down-side with all this is zits : I'm getting a small amount of zits again (on my hands especially because the lights are next to my hands when I type :D), though overall my skin is looking better due to less inflammation. Still have to experiment with retinol though, my current intake is not that high...

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8933 · May 06, 2012 at 8:47 AM

oh you haven't? You really ought to do it, finally my sinus issues are way down, I'm under the impression my digestion even improved from it, but my mood is better and I don't get tired after being on the computer anymore. I really saw a big difference, and I'm only at 120W right now (RP does 500W I believe). And 2 be honest, it looks like your diet is like 200g sugar, right? Cliff does 700g, I do 300-400g sugar but I need as much as Cliff does to prevent things like hypoglycemia etc. Gonna try to up my intake with homemade fruit candy today.

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4080 · May 04, 2012 at 4:59 PM

Korion -I haven't tried bright light. Sugar in a day -1 tablespoon honey, 40oz of OJ, coconut water 15g of sugar. So I haven't calculated it. I am actually starting to have some hypoglycemia episodes again though. Which haven't been an issue in a few years. Worrisome. Part of my problem is that since starting eating Peat style -I have a zero appetite. Danny Roddy thought it was because I was super low in zinc.

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8933 · May 04, 2012 at 8:53 AM

By the way, Senneth, ever tried bright light? Just plug in some good old, powerful incandescent light bulbs! They make me smile all the time :D, though they also give me zits haha. Any idea how much sugar you eat, too? I noticed I need a LOT of OJ to prevent hypoglycemia or other issues.

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8933 · May 02, 2012 at 1:08 PM

Sorry, that should have been *"for the first time in a year"* instead of *"for over a year anymore"*. I love the idea of "salt pills". I started getting migraines from OJ at the start of the diet, but it went away, maybe because of the epsom salt baths I take.

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4080 · May 01, 2012 at 10:54 PM

Oops I also add gelatin to my coffee.

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4080 · May 01, 2012 at 10:53 PM

I drink coffee with cream, cc oil, and honey every morning. I adore it. But I haven't noticed any health benefits. I will look at the peatarian.com. Thanks! Every time I try to add more salt, like salt pills, I get the worst migraines.

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 6:42 PM

What does the coffee do to you btw? Never did it yet. I've also seen that there is a PH-like forum about Ray Peat now : http://peatarian.com. Can't wait to see other people's experiences. I told a girl to eat salt, she said she didn't have severe food reactions for over a year anymore...

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 6:41 PM

Pregenenolone boosts you? YESSS I absolutely love milk, can't stand cheese, so I had to drink milk and I just managed to tolerate it. I'm taking retinol though. Goat milk seemed to do me no good btw, but I could be wrong (I might try it again). Ever tried boiled or ultra-pasteurized milk? I don't eat veggies at all, don't see why I would bother :). I still have quite a lot of issues to solve, but the list is becoming quite short. Especially since I finally have the time to do whatever I want now. Cooking took so much time in the past, now it takes 10 minutes for most meals.

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4080 · May 01, 2012 at 6:27 PM

Korion -glad to hear you are doing so great!! Do you eat any veggies? like summer squash or mushrooms? I can imagine myself accidently eating some starch out of sheer lack of knowledge. I discovered that its the pregnenolone that is giving me such great energy levels. I have been doing the eggshell calcium but I still can't down the milk. I just tried to add goats milk in again and it was a huge fail. I am probably still getting too much muscle meat since I can't compensate with the milk. I do put cream in my coffee and eat a ton of cheese. A work in progress right!!?

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 3:02 PM

There's still a lot of work, but I'm coming close to real health nowadays. I have yet to try coffee, egg shell calcium, pregnenolone, cutting out more supplements (I'm way down on pills) and eating more OJ and milk (currently only 2 quarts of milk and 1 quart of OJ). My sugar intake is only 350g daily too, I'd like to make that higher now.

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Hahaha yeah I thought about you when Peat said *for people with very sensitive digestion, starch should be zero*. I have seen massive improvements, Senneth : temperature much higher, less shy, constantly walking around with a smile on my face, stronger hair, better brain function (I was able to work 24 hours in two days on a boring project), finally sleeping very very well, need less sleep (7-9 hours versus the old 11-12 hours), acne on my legs is finally disappearing, tinea is almost gone. Who would have thought sugar would solve my issues with bacteria :D?

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4080 · April 13, 2012 at 4:54 PM

Korion -I have been such an idiot! Peat told me like 6 months ago to cut out all starch and I just was in denial about it. I stopped eating those beloved potatoes about 2 weeks ago and I am finally seeing some MAJOR tummy improvements. Maybe the carrot is finally getting to do its magic. How about you?

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8933 · April 13, 2012 at 3:42 PM

Have you ever tried to cut out all starch, Senneth?

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1026 · April 07, 2012 at 7:58 AM

@Travis Ray Peat said in a podcast that ideally you should get 50% of your calories from fruit, but I think he prefers milk if fruit is not good quality. He also thinks macronutrients should be around 33/33/33 CFP but says it's more about the quality than the quantity. I've been listening to too many podcasts recently :D. The guy is awesome to listen to : he is a library of studies in itself, remembers names of tons of researchers and always has cool anecdotes about Mexico etc.

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1026 · April 07, 2012 at 7:56 AM

@JRAC you probably heard it on the East West Healing podcast. I've been listening to that A LOT and he mentions that, in the context of adequate fructose, the ratio is less important. I personally am not a fan of milk either, so I try to drink a lot of fruit juices and eat fruit. The liquid diet is very satiating IMO if the fruit is eaten with protein (eg. eggs or gelatin).

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4080 · March 02, 2012 at 10:30 PM

Tyler -I will update my post right now with a typical days food.

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955 · March 02, 2012 at 10:10 PM

Senneth, would you mind sharing with us what your eating regime looked like?

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5188 · March 02, 2012 at 7:34 PM

Ah, I see you've got a basic grasp of irony at least.

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1453 · February 27, 2012 at 7:41 PM

Korion, changing the title is a great idea, so people with positive experience can report, too.

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4080 · February 27, 2012 at 6:58 PM

I think the diet improved my health in such as way that I was better able to use and absorb iron correctly. I drink an americano every morning. I am super excited -maybe my tummy issues will start getting better!!

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8933 · February 27, 2012 at 5:49 PM

It's so cool you got rid of your anemia by eating Peatarian : that's way lower on iron and he promotes caffeine to inhibit iron absorption.

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1453 · February 23, 2012 at 9:05 PM

My Peat-inspired diet consists of orange juice, milk, ripe tropical fruits, cheese, honey, liver, mussels, eggs, shellfish, beef, salt, coconut oil and butter. Typical day is milk, OJ/fruit and 1 egg for breakfast, milk, cheese and OJ during the day and meat/fish with coffee in the evening. Ratio is about 50/30/20 (carbs/protein/fats) am also experimenting with ice cream. Started a few weeks ago (coming from low-carb), so it's to early to draw a conclusion. This may give you an overview. He is only a researcher, so you can apply his research do different diet-versions.

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4080 · February 23, 2012 at 6:57 PM

Grace- I have tried betaine in the past and it burned the hell out my poor inflamed digestion. But now, thanks to Peat, I am no longer inflamed, so I am experimenting with Betaine again. I don't think Peat specifically addresses Stomach Acid, per se.

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3703 · February 23, 2012 at 3:56 AM

http://sandiegoperformancetraining.com/?p=216

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3703 · February 23, 2012 at 3:56 AM

Senneth, Another reason for low iron is insufficient gastric acidity... Acid pH of 1-2 is necessary to absorb minerals like iron, calcium, magneium, zinc, selenium, etc (mandatory for thyroid/adrenal optimal function). Has the stomach acidity for digestion been addressed by Peat? The more stress, the more hypothyroid, the more cortisol/poor adrenals, the less the stomach secretes adequate acid. Drugs like acid blockers (Zantac, 'the purple pill' Prilosec, etc) also prevent stomach acidity and cause iron and B12 deficiencies... Have you heard of Robb Wolf's betaine HCl test?

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3703 · February 23, 2012 at 3:26 AM

The hair only shows metal if one is chelating... Thanks for your reply! Low iron is related to many things but low thyroid/adrenals the most common, I observe. Sounds like that is improving with the wispy hairs around your face!

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1402 · February 23, 2012 at 1:06 AM

And plenty of vegetables (cooked). And lower sugar chocolate. I have no other dairy besides yogurt and aged cheese. Obviously I try to make everything organic/grass-fed/pastured as much as possible. Can't do it on the steak but I try to get my food from sustainable ecosystems as much as I can. I eat about 2000 calories a day, I do the 8 hour window IF but it's mostly just to not eat unnecessarily than it is for the IF. I do like unpasteurized orange juice occasionally. And bone broth. And sweet potatoes/yams, how could I forget that...

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1402 · February 23, 2012 at 1:01 AM

Well, I try to experiment as much as I can, cycle between eating certain things and not and try to see if there are any results, so my diet isn't always an attempt at the ideal diet. Butter and coconut oil are my fats, and I use bacon fat to cook goat liver once a week. For meat I'm sticking with ruminants only and I'm going to stop eating eggs for a while. I eat macadamia nuts, brazil nuts and avocado, but never a whole lot of any of those. I go for a serving or two of fruit per day between oranges and blueberries. I like greek yogurt with cinnamon and stevia. Aged cheddar cheese.

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4620 · February 22, 2012 at 10:04 PM

@Poisson: I used to take lactase when I was little and it worked pretty well. I can't be bothered nowadays, mostly cause I don't like milk anyways. @Mallory: Yeah, I don't find that kind of liquid diet satiating. I'd rather just eat the whole oranges. I'm gonna start an experiment soon with supplementing egg shell calcium to match my phosphorous intake 1:1.

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4080 · February 22, 2012 at 7:47 PM

Korion -I am sorry to hear that your wording got nitpicked half to death. I know what you meant, and I like you!!

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2231 · February 22, 2012 at 6:07 PM

peat told me my problem was calcium to phosphorous ratios too...actually, everything peat has told me has been spot on true actually kinda scary, i just cant do a liquid OJ and milk diet b/c i dont process dairy and i cant live on liquid food, its not my thing. it may well work, but the 'diet' is made extremely difficult w/o milk products

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11204 · February 22, 2012 at 4:58 PM

Yes, Peat recommends skim milk (or 2%), and I when I tried to put more iodine in my diet, I used seaweed. I didn't mean to imply Peat was recommending supplements, but that he was recommending a level of calcium that I just couldn't handle. I can't handle the casein in milk, and I imagine that even if I could get the calcium from food, I'd still be in more pain than I am in at the lower paleo calcium intake.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 4:13 PM

Let's stop the discussion. You don't wanna read Ray Peat, fine... At least you got a badge out of it ;) I should maybe change the title of this question to "Ray Peat experiences?" to avoid confusion? What do you think about that?

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 4:11 PM

Good point PrimalCG, I never read about calcium supplementation either. He even says iodine-deficiency is extremely rare and iodine will probably make matters worse.

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273 · February 22, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Haha, brilliant answer from the guy who refuses to read Peat's work.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 12:19 PM

It's so much more than that, there's more to read than wikipedia.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Wait, what is low-carb then, apart from "don't eat carbs"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM

Oh, and since you like the analogy, low-carb eating is much more than don't eat carbs.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 11:20 AM

Paleo is eating in a manner consistent with our evolutionary history. And yes there are as many definitions as there are people. What I'm hearing is that there's no absolutes for Ray Peat and that most primal diets could be described as Peat diets. And that measuring failure seems to be based mainly on one's ability to divine what Peat would do in your specific situation.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 11:13 AM

You've asked a question, saying people 'will know' if they've failed. So far you've had several answers from people who have literally said they don't know if their experiences counts as having failed. I think a better question would be to ask if anyone has tried Peat's methods and then stopped, and why.

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269 · February 22, 2012 at 10:26 AM

For lactose intolerance, have you tried simply supplementing with lactase?

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 9:07 AM

On paleo though, I guess it's not possible to fail, since your possibilities are endless. This is why I don't consider paleo to be a diet, I kinda call it my super-diet since it is above many other diets : low-carb, Ray Peat, zero-carb, raw-vegan, ... all the foods they eat is natural and thus paleo.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 9:06 AM

You're confusing "failing to apply the diet" to "failing to get healthier on the diet". As every diet has bounds (though paleo as a diet has practically no bounds), it is very well possible to fail on a diet even though you did it right. For example, I can do the SAD right but still fail to get healthier.

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1590 · February 22, 2012 at 8:51 AM

Korion, I know someone who grates the carrot and then rinses it to get rid of some of the beta carotene. Not sure of the % mind.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:50 AM

Drinking milk does not work for me either, but it isn't absolutely necessary on Peat's diet.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:49 AM

You want an answer like "Ray Peat = OJ + Milk", but there is no such answer.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:48 AM

Have you ever tried explaining paleo to random people, PrimalDanny? Obviously not. If I tell them what I eat, the first thing they say is "ooooh, Atkiiiiins". So yes it is harder than you think.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:47 AM

*"Sorry, I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get even one straight answer."* Because Ray Peat is not as simple as "drink OJ", it's much more than that. It's very hard to explain it fast. That's why we all continuously tell you to read Ray Peat. Your questions are not specific, and things like *"it's using your greater knowledge and experience of a subject to answer a few specific questions"* aren't really helping.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:44 AM

Senneth, I can't believe how much bad luck you have! Your digestive issues seem impossible to solve... The daily carrot actually makes things worse for me because of the beta-carotene, but that's a personal thing (probably because of my vitamin-D-deficiency). Thanks for you great answer!

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:07 AM

I might have to clarify, but you definitely have to, too. What don't you understand, apart from Ray Peat's diet itself?

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273 · February 22, 2012 at 7:06 AM

I'm not sure where the ideas for supplementing calcium and iodine come from. Peat doesn't believe supplements are a good idea for anything, except possibly Vitamin E. He believes calcium to phosphate ratio is important, so you should eat calcium rich foods like milk and cheese. He also says iodine deficiency is not an issue except in rare cases with some usually higher altitude groups. He would not suggest supplementing iodine because it would hurt more than harm thyroid if you already had enough in your diet.

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431 · February 22, 2012 at 6:42 AM

Dylan, so what do you eat now that you've determined that Ray Peat's thing and VLC aren't the best for you?

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661 · February 22, 2012 at 6:19 AM

His thesis is that energy and structure are interdependent at every level. In practice this means that providing energy to the smallest unit of living matter, the cell can have a “ripple effect” throughout the entire organism. Cells form tissues and tissues form organs. There two posts should bring anyone up to speed if they're interested in his stuff. http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2012/1/16/the-lens-of-a-peat-a-tarian-part-i-the-perfect-health-diet.html http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2012/2/13/why-thyroid-is-so-important-a-response-to-dr-paul-jaminet.html

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39841 · February 22, 2012 at 4:58 AM

Thanks for the link, Jay. My knowledge of biochemistry is miniscule compared to any of these guys, so I'm ill-equipped to dispute any of it, but of everything of Peat's I've read, those things stand out the most. Drink 10 gallons of OJ? Yeah, whatever. We don't require unsaturated fats in any amount? Wait a sec.... I hope he's right about that. It'd make diet composition a lot easier for me.

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1402 · February 22, 2012 at 1:39 AM

Oh, and alcohol probably didn't help. And being unhappy with my workplace.

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1402 · February 22, 2012 at 1:38 AM

Well going very low carb was what ruined me and I only did it for a few weeks, but that was the tipping point. Not enough carbs, too much protein, poor sleep, too much exercise and too much caffeine were probably the top 5 culprits for me (in that order if I were to guess)

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 12:03 AM

Indeed they may. Lucky for me I tend to judge theories by the qualities of the people that believe in them.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 12:00 AM

I realize it's a lot easier to make personal comments than anything constructive, but on the off-chance you have something useful to say I'll try to be clearer. Your comments do not make sense to me. If you are only interested in making terribly clever in-jokes for the benefit of people with your knowledge and way of thinking then that's fine, otherwise you might want to consider reasons beyond brain damage for someone not agreeing with you.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 11:31 PM

If you eat enough fructose Peat has said the ratio matters less. Can't remember where I heard that though; maybe herb doctors?

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18635 · February 21, 2012 at 10:38 PM

Since you have discontinued the protocol....what are the factors you feel you have identified as the original culprits to your thyroid problems?

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18635 · February 21, 2012 at 10:28 PM

Yo Travis....I'm not an advocate of the Peat diet at all. I especially find the concept that we all need a racing heart rate and supersonic metabolism to be well as a bit dubious and refuted in enough places that its definitely out on a limb.....BUT here is some interesting stuff on all that cell membrane issue http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Do%20you%20believe%20in%20MRI%20scanners%3F You can follow his links to the author of the research he's pointing to. Interesting/radical theories may still have some validity.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:26 PM

Travis, thanks! I just keep cherry picking from a variety of area's on my own health quest. I try to not stick with one regime or another, but am willing to try out things I have researched and think might be helpful. Right now I am on a peat-style binge, who knows whats next!?

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1402 · February 21, 2012 at 10:22 PM

Then for dinner maybe a buffalo meatloaf (with eggs and potato starch as the filler) and a couple oranges. A little ice cream for dessert maybe. But an average day might be like that plus more sugar, just through juice or chocolate or anything because I was pro sugar. My calorie intake spontaneously rose by maybe one-third or a half. And I certainly don't profess to be an expert on the diet, I just had a thyroid problem and thought I'd try my best at it and it worked. I did not eat many vegetables on the diet either.

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 10:22 PM

Yeah, who cares about strict adherence to one dietary religion or another? That's awesome that it pointed you in a good direction. A few more tweaks and you'll probably get the remaining issues sorted.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:18 PM

I have no idea if I am eating more or less calories, I am just never hungry. I didn't come into the whole thing for weight loss -so I don't monitor that. I am super active: walking, yoga, 20m power workout daily. I also hike and rollerblade a ton in the summer. I ate a lot of coconut oil before and still do -so maybe my metabolism is exactly the same? I could be doing it "wrong" but I am not exactly militant about doing it "right" or I would be drinking a ton more milk.

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1402 · February 21, 2012 at 10:18 PM

Breakfast might be eggs cooked in coconut oil with havarti cheese (with animal rennet, not enzymes) and bacon with as much of the fat cooked out as possible and some milk (I went for Straus as it is not homogenized). Lunch could be steak or lamb (6-8oz, which is smaller than my typical portion) with bone broth and maybe some marshmallows or fruit snacks (obviously limiting bad ingredients as much as possible) and some coffee to inhibit the iron load from the meat. I'd have a raw carrot somewhere in the day but not too close to any mealtime.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:17 PM

I have no idea if I am eating more or less calories, I am just never hungry. I didn't come into the whole thing for weight loss -so I monitor that. I am super active: walking, yoga, 20m power workout daily. I also hike and rollerblade a ton in the summer. I ate a lot of coconut oil before and still do -so maybe my metabolism is exactly the same?

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 10:12 PM

I saw a quote of Peat's somewhere stating that he eats pretty much all day long while remaining almost completely sedentary. Sounded like my own personal version of Hell. Good to see that that isn't the only way, but maybe that means you're doing it wrong?

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 10:08 PM

But you are consuming more calories? I thought the point was to rev the metabolism.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 10:07 PM

I think you need some more glucose PrimalDanny... your brain appears to have malfunctioned.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:04 PM

Travis - I don't know about the others but my appetite has just about died on this Peat way of eating. I eat about half the "amount" of food I did on paleo. I am just never ever hungry anymore. When I was trying the liquid milk thing -it was even less. I could go days without eating...but am trying to keep my food up to work on thyroid stuff.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 10:03 PM

Are these typical of what obese people losing weight are eating?

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 10:01 PM

These seem like a lot more reasonable diets than I was expecting. All of that OJ and milk sound pretty unappetizing, but I suppose the overall breakdown is fairly similar to my tuber-heavy diet. I was picturing a largely frugivorous diet, which has always been strikingly unsatisfying to me, satiety-wise. I guess this diet is supposed to be anti-satiety though.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 10:00 PM

It's not cherry-picking, it's using your greater knowledge and experience of a subject to answer a few specific questions. Now *that's* something that isn't really hard.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:59 PM

So eating vegetables is Peat's theory for the obesity epidemic? I hadn't realized that.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Yesterday I ate, 2 litres OJ, 4 pints whole milk, 100g cheese, 2 duck eggs, 1/2lb oxtail, 400g potato, a lot coffee with a lot of sugar and a bucket load of salt. Typically 50/30/20 CFP.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:47 PM

Primal Danny -Ya, I was already doing primal, so it wasn't a big change to me to cut out some veggie's (which I didn't like anyway) and add a ton of my beloved cheese. Who doesn't like drinking a ton of OJ! Liquid sugar with minerals. Yummy. I am slim, so the hell with it! ;) Peat says filtered OJ, that the pulp causes issues. But I eat an orange or some tropical fruits daily because I want to.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:45 PM

Primal Danny -Ya, I was already doing primal, so it wasn't a big change to me to cut out some veggie's (which I didn't like anyway) and add a ton of my beloved cheese. Who doesn't like drinking a ton of OJ! Liquid sugar with minerals. Yummy. I am slim, so the hell with it! ;)

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11204 · February 21, 2012 at 9:44 PM

He doesn't say we don't have cell membranes. I think he was saying that the modern view of the cell overemphasizes it's role. Peat seems to be promulgating 30s era biology over what he considers corporately controlled modern biology. I don't know enough about either to see where he might be right or where he might be wrong. He seems to be wrong on DHA, especially for infants. But here again, I don't know enough about the processes to critique those studies.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 9:42 PM

I'm not going to cherrypick for you. Stop being so lazy and go read a few articles; it's really not hard. I never said you had any problems...

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:42 PM

Apart from the OJ (is this *necessary* or can you eat oranges) this sounds fairly paleo to me - ok, primal.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:42 PM

I haven't paid much attention to his commentary on heavy metals, if there is any (although I have read and listened to almost everything that he has put out there). I have been diagnosed with SIBO but have extremely low iron, and been hair tested with no heavy metals showing up. I have had a number of doc's put this heavy metal thing out there and want to do foot baths or chelation on me. I keep hoping that damn daily carrot will do its trick on my small intestine.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 9:40 PM

Yes not eating all those obesogenic vegetables allows you to lose fat in winter.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:39 PM

For the benefit of those silently offended enough to downvote this, I mean that the question appears to apply a double-standard. It's essentially impossible to fail if you do it right because failing is being defined by whether or not you do it right. To compare this to the supposed many failures on low-carb (which many people have in fact found to be useful in their situation) is disingenuous. It's the same kind of irresponsible reasoning used in much CW dietary advice which disregards the details that make all the difference.

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3703 · February 21, 2012 at 9:38 PM

Senneth, what are Peat's thoughts On modern toxins specifically heavy metals? My observations are that metals are always linked to refractory sibo and intestinal dysbiosis... Peat has great thoughts on progestins which was his earliest bench work I believe! Thanks!

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:36 PM

I think this link is a pretty accurate list of what Ray Peat eats http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=419742 (He recently said he uses 1% milk)

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:33 PM

Travis -I do a coffee with cream, honey, and gelatin in the morning. A couple of boiled eggs with about 16oz of OJ, then later cheese -an orange maybe or papaya -a couple bites of beef jerky. Dinner -usually shrimp, potatoes with cheese and butter, more OJ. Although most Peats would do an addition of liquid milk. I don't eat a ton of food.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:12 PM

It's the question I'm struggling to grasp, not the ideas.

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 8:37 PM

What were you actually eating in a typical day?

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1453 · February 21, 2012 at 8:19 PM

You obviously never intended to grasp his ideas.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 8:11 PM

Seasonality is all but gone now, which I consider a serious issue. I do wonder if the natural reduction in veg intake during winter fulfils some of the ideas Peat has. On the weight-loss though, I think it depends where your yard-stick is. If you are severely overweight then the paleo thing is to lose that. Otherwise though, I agree bodyfat should rise and fall with the seasons but that's not anti-paleo. In fact in general paleo doesn't have to be about losing-weight at all.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 7:50 PM

Sorry, I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get even one straight answer. I don't believe I have any problems for him to fix. You believe you've found something worth commenting obliquely on. More power to you.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Just look at the articles entitled with the words longevity and such in their title... seriously

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 6:55 PM

You want me to read everything Ray Peat has ever written before commenting on your question? It's unbelievable to you that I might ask you to clarify things? If you had been able to explain things better in the first place this would have been a lot more straight-forward. Clearly things have gotten off-track and some people take this more personally than I'm interested in. I hope you get the answers you're expecting.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 6:50 PM

I'm sure he has opinions. But I gather there's a lot of work, and it's not straight-forward finding what to read. So I'm just trying to get the basic idea, am I risking my health or an early grave by not having year-round access to oranges? Or will I just lose weight faster (while building muscle)? Or is it just a necessary step to 'fix' thyroid for people who got it badly wrong before, and the reason why I have no problems with my sex drive is because I didn't make myself severely ill?

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1402 · February 21, 2012 at 6:36 PM

Since I had solved my thyroid problem I didn't really have much incentive to stick to the protocol while I was gaining fat (given that I recognized likely factors that led to the thyroid problem so I can prevent it from happening in the future)

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 6:27 PM

So by "doing it right" I mean by experimenting and exploring every aspect of the diet until one knows for certain that the diet doesn't work for them.

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 6:26 PM

"Is there a coherent diet to apply this to? 'Low-carb' is used to describe all manner of eating approaches, most of which no-one here would ever expect to work" We're not talking about low-carb here, we're talking about Ray Peat. Though there is room for variation in every diet, that doesn't matter : I expect people to fine-tune a diet before they judge it. I didn't judge ZC after I incorporated salt, removed eggs and ate more fish. I didn't judge raw vegan until I did it for more than 4 weeks. I expect people to judge Ray Peat here *after* they experimented.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 6:24 PM

Calorie restriction works because it stops the accumulation of unsaturated fats in tissues like the brain and the reduced build up of heavy metals. You really should read some of RPs work with comments like that. Calorie restrictors van keep their sex drive of a panda, cold hands and infertility... Just read some of RPs articles it's not hard to see his views on longevity.

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 6:24 PM

I can't believe you just ignore me and PrimalCG when we tell you to read Ray Peat. Your questions don't really make any sense to me. What exactly do you not understand?

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273 · February 21, 2012 at 6:07 PM

And people following Peat's recommendations don't eat meat? Seriously man, if you want to jump in every Peat thread at least read some basics.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 5:55 PM

Fine then, no-one has ever failed at low-carb diets doing it right.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 5:53 PM

The tribe? Well, this is *Paleo*hacks. The occasional nod to natural selection isn't entirely out of place. Anyway, sounds to me like the concept is live fast and die young. Which I'm sure feels good, but so does cake. If the key question is longevity then don't we need to wait another 50 years or so to get some data on that? Aside from that, flatly contradicting the consensus on caloric restriction seems a smart move.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 5:46 PM

What I've read fails to suggest a holistic diet, and people I ask seem to be contradictory while failing to provide anything more meaningful. I eat fruit, dairy, gelatin and coconut oil. I don't count salt as supplementing my main calories and don't find other more artifical supplements necessary. I also eat meat though, does that mean I fail? Does my failure mean I'm suffering physically or just that I don't get a certificate at the end? I'm just suggesting you could explain your question better.

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Thanks Dylan !

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 4:59 PM

Thanks PrimalCG. This is why I said "doing it right". Eating tons of icecream... that's not Ray Peat, since your nutrient density is nihil... Ray Peat says *"Animal proteins, and fruits, because they contain the lowest levels of toxins, should form the basis of the diet."* (source : http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml)

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 4:53 PM

I said "Supplement with salt, aspirin, niacinimade, etc. **where necessary**"

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 4:52 PM

It is not necessary to supplement. You obviously didn't read Peat's articles. The guidelines seems pretty straightforward to me. If you don't understand Ray Peat, then why are you posting here? I don't want to come over like a douchebag (though I probably do), but commenting on a question about a diet you don't know/understand seems pretty unlogical to me...

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2544 · February 21, 2012 at 4:49 PM

I am curious, what made you stop? The weight gain?

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 4:46 PM

I won't get into the why, just read Ray Peat if you want to know. Why did you leave out fruit? Fruit is the basis of Peatarianism... Anyways, if you don't know what the diet is about, I don't expect you to be able to define "failing".

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 4:33 PM

You'd have to read some of Peat's work to understand; you're aiming for a thyroid driven oxidative metabolism for health and longevity. The number of calories (along with temps, heartrate etc) are just indicators... I don't like spending more on food. lol. When I was IFing and PHD macros I had a resting heartrate of 43... now I'm pushing 80. Warmer and generally feel like a don.

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273 · February 21, 2012 at 4:23 PM

Not sure why you would bring the effects on "the tribe" into it. Obviously if there are limited food sources then metabolism would be lower to compensate. Doesn't mean that functioning that way is optimal. Why would I want to increase food intake? Well, perhaps because it's a consequence of increased energy expenditure? For me that means improved mood, energy levels, athletic performance, cognitive function and sexual function over various paleo dietary approaches I've attempted. I'll take eating more if it means continuing to receive those benefits.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 4:10 PM

Genuinely though, why would you want to increase the amount of food you need for maintenance by over 50%? Sounds like a surefire failure for the tribe but you suggest it gives you some advantage in the modern world?

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 4:03 PM

3500 kcal... ;-)

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19120 · February 21, 2012 at 3:39 PM

@PrimalDenny, I have a suspicion @JRAC doesn't understand that 1 Calorie = 1000 calories, and 2.2k Calories doesn't equal 2.2kcal. Maybe we should switch to Joules. ;-)

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 3:38 PM

And how (and for God's sake why?) do you make sure you're not burning fat when eating dairy, gelatin and coconut oil? Why is it necessary to supplement? What are you trying to achieve other than proving you can follow an arbitrary set of dietary rules? All I've heard is that, whatever physical problem you have, it will be fixed by following Ray Peat's dietary guidelines. Yet those guidelines are generally a bit unclear without reading dozens of research papers. Just doesn't seem to be the kind of religion I can believe in.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 3:33 PM

You're judging failure as non-compliance then? That's a completely different area. I just think you need to be a lot clearer when trying to make comparisons like this. And then, perhaps, get some data. Otherwise I could tell you I fail at Ray Peat pretty much every day.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 3:31 PM

3.5 Calories? I wasn going to ask for more explanation of the first line but this one is even more inexplicable.

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 2:53 PM

Cliff wasn't failing at weight loss, I believe he succeeds in gaining weight. There's a big difference. Peatarianism is a high-carbohydrate diet to make sure you're not burning fat. Most calories should come from fruit, dairy, gelatin and coconut oil. Supplement with salt, aspirin, niacinimade, etc. where necessary.

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 2:49 PM

The diet itself defines what is "doing it right" and "doing it wrong". There's no need for fine print disclaimers if the diet is well-defined. And peatarianism is well-defined. You will know if you fail on it, just like I know I failed on raw vegan and on ZC and do/did quite well on standard paleo.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 2:48 PM

Is there a coherent diet to apply this to? 'Low-carb' is used to describe all manner of eating approaches, most of which no-one here would ever expect to work. What is the defining characteristic of Peatism? Eat fruit? And what is it's aim? Weight loss? I thought Cliff was failing at that spectacularly (and intentionally).

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18635 · February 21, 2012 at 2:32 PM

"doing it right".....is what every regime adds on to the end as the fine print disclaimer leaving themselves an out.

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15 Answers

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661 · February 22, 2012 at 6:27 AM

As for the philosophy (it's not a diet) "not working."

I look at Peat's stuff like a toolbox for modulating the hormones he believes are responsible for degeneration (serotonin, estrogen, prolactin, cortisol, aldosterone, PTH, TSH, etc.).

If someone concludes that "they have failed" on the diet because of this or that, the next thing they need to do is produce labs where all of the above are in Peat's favored ranges.

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78422 · September 21, 2012 at 11:10 PM

Does anyone smell bananas? Lots of Bananas? Like 30-Bananas?

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1402 · February 21, 2012 at 4:43 PM

I did the Ray Peat protocol for a little bit. It had it's positive effects and it had its negative effects. I fixed my thyroid and testosterone levels but I gained a little bit of fat that I have to guess is related to the fructose intake.

In a lot of ways, these protocols (Ray Peat, Paleo, etc.) are a bit like a pill. A lot of the time they do fix the things they are aimed to fix but there are always side effects, sometimes negative. Even though I gained weight on Ray Peat's protocol I still think it's very useful.

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2544 · February 21, 2012 at 4:49 PM

I am curious, what made you stop? The weight gain?

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Thanks Dylan !

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1402 · February 21, 2012 at 10:22 PM

Then for dinner maybe a buffalo meatloaf (with eggs and potato starch as the filler) and a couple oranges. A little ice cream for dessert maybe. But an average day might be like that plus more sugar, just through juice or chocolate or anything because I was pro sugar. My calorie intake spontaneously rose by maybe one-third or a half. And I certainly don't profess to be an expert on the diet, I just had a thyroid problem and thought I'd try my best at it and it worked. I did not eat many vegetables on the diet either.

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18635 · February 21, 2012 at 10:38 PM

Since you have discontinued the protocol....what are the factors you feel you have identified as the original culprits to your thyroid problems?

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1402 · February 22, 2012 at 1:39 AM

Oh, and alcohol probably didn't help. And being unhappy with my workplace.

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 8:37 PM

What were you actually eating in a typical day?

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1402 · February 21, 2012 at 6:36 PM

Since I had solved my thyroid problem I didn't really have much incentive to stick to the protocol while I was gaining fat (given that I recognized likely factors that led to the thyroid problem so I can prevent it from happening in the future)

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1402 · February 21, 2012 at 10:18 PM

Breakfast might be eggs cooked in coconut oil with havarti cheese (with animal rennet, not enzymes) and bacon with as much of the fat cooked out as possible and some milk (I went for Straus as it is not homogenized). Lunch could be steak or lamb (6-8oz, which is smaller than my typical portion) with bone broth and maybe some marshmallows or fruit snacks (obviously limiting bad ingredients as much as possible) and some coffee to inhibit the iron load from the meat. I'd have a raw carrot somewhere in the day but not too close to any mealtime.

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1402 · February 23, 2012 at 1:01 AM

Well, I try to experiment as much as I can, cycle between eating certain things and not and try to see if there are any results, so my diet isn't always an attempt at the ideal diet. Butter and coconut oil are my fats, and I use bacon fat to cook goat liver once a week. For meat I'm sticking with ruminants only and I'm going to stop eating eggs for a while. I eat macadamia nuts, brazil nuts and avocado, but never a whole lot of any of those. I go for a serving or two of fruit per day between oranges and blueberries. I like greek yogurt with cinnamon and stevia. Aged cheddar cheese.

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1402 · February 22, 2012 at 1:38 AM

Well going very low carb was what ruined me and I only did it for a few weeks, but that was the tipping point. Not enough carbs, too much protein, poor sleep, too much exercise and too much caffeine were probably the top 5 culprits for me (in that order if I were to guess)

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431 · February 22, 2012 at 6:42 AM

Dylan, so what do you eat now that you've determined that Ray Peat's thing and VLC aren't the best for you?

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1402 · February 23, 2012 at 1:06 AM

And plenty of vegetables (cooked). And lower sugar chocolate. I have no other dairy besides yogurt and aged cheese. Obviously I try to make everything organic/grass-fed/pastured as much as possible. Can't do it on the steak but I try to get my food from sustainable ecosystems as much as I can. I eat about 2000 calories a day, I do the 8 hour window IF but it's mostly just to not eat unnecessarily than it is for the IF. I do like unpasteurized orange juice occasionally. And bone broth. And sweet potatoes/yams, how could I forget that...

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 7:14 PM

I am still "trying" Ray Peat's methods, and have been since August 2011. (I consulted with him via email). Everything from the dietary suggestions to the supplement suggestions.

I am trying to get rid of some digestive issues (Gas, burping, bloating), which nothing else has worked on. Ray Peat's theory on low thyroid causing bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine is what made me want to try to it. It gave me a "cause" to my symptoms, so I could treat the cause instead of just the symptoms.

Pro's: Warmer all the time!! My hormones seem to be balancing out nicely. I get up in the morning with ease (for the first time in my entire life!!). Intestinal(?) inflammation I had been experiencing for years is GONE. (learned from peat about pufu in poultry and pork -who knew that soy feed made for a soy filled animal! I am super allergic to soy). 2/27/12 I just got back a CBC blood test (last one was pre-peat but years into paleo): So much improvement!! Paleo didn't improve my OFF results in any way, but eating Peat-style has done something amazing with my blood results. Improvements across the board and I am no longer technically anemic! (Which I have been since a teen!). I am just a few point off normal in only a few portions -versus nearly all of em.

Con's: My digestive issues are the same.

Issue's: The milk component was a problem for me. I am technically "allergic" to casein, and am lactose intolerant. I gradually added milk to my diet, and my GI symptoms got worse, big-time constipation started, and acne from hell. (Normally I have super clear skin). I tried switching brands including trying raw. The only thing I didn't try, at the time, was supplementing Vit A, to help counter it. (Although I am taking a small vit A supplement now). I might experiment some more in the future. I do eat a ton of cheese and heavy cream in my coffee daily without experiencing ANY of the above mentioned effects.

Verdict: Was it a fail? In a way, but I sort of like eating this way anyway (I hate eating a ton of veggie's) so its something different, for now. With no other hopes, currently, on the horizon, for solving my issues, I am sticking to it, and trying to tweak it for improvements.

UPDATE: Per request -here is a typical days food.

Breakfast :Large Americano with gelatin, coconut oil, heavy cream, and honey.

Lunch :a combo of something like two boiled eggs, 12oz pulp free OJ, cheese slices, pemmican, gelatin, and orange.

Dinner :(I am rarely hungry for dinner)...more oj, shrimp & spag squash, or buttered potatoes, or more eggs, sometimes steak (with gelatin), cheese usually melted over some component.

I am going to be adding oysters as of this weekend -I am trying to eat more shellfish. I would say Peat would want more of a real breakfast, like the eggs and OJ or something..and coffee drunk along with it. Coffee with meals really. Also more liquid milk obviously. He likes liver once a week -that is so not happening. If I eat muscle meat at all then I eat gelatin with it. I sometimes snack on 'enjoy life brand' chocolate chips. Sometimes I eat olives or ketchup. But for the most part I just eat what's listed. I am trying to eat more protein, but my complete lack of appetite makes that difficult.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:42 PM

I haven't paid much attention to his commentary on heavy metals, if there is any (although I have read and listened to almost everything that he has put out there). I have been diagnosed with SIBO but have extremely low iron, and been hair tested with no heavy metals showing up. I have had a number of doc's put this heavy metal thing out there and want to do foot baths or chelation on me. I keep hoping that damn daily carrot will do its trick on my small intestine.

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3703 · February 21, 2012 at 9:38 PM

Senneth, what are Peat's thoughts On modern toxins specifically heavy metals? My observations are that metals are always linked to refractory sibo and intestinal dysbiosis... Peat has great thoughts on progestins which was his earliest bench work I believe! Thanks!

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3703 · February 23, 2012 at 3:56 AM

Senneth, Another reason for low iron is insufficient gastric acidity... Acid pH of 1-2 is necessary to absorb minerals like iron, calcium, magneium, zinc, selenium, etc (mandatory for thyroid/adrenal optimal function). Has the stomach acidity for digestion been addressed by Peat? The more stress, the more hypothyroid, the more cortisol/poor adrenals, the less the stomach secretes adequate acid. Drugs like acid blockers (Zantac, 'the purple pill' Prilosec, etc) also prevent stomach acidity and cause iron and B12 deficiencies... Have you heard of Robb Wolf's betaine HCl test?

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:44 AM

Senneth, I can't believe how much bad luck you have! Your digestive issues seem impossible to solve... The daily carrot actually makes things worse for me because of the beta-carotene, but that's a personal thing (probably because of my vitamin-D-deficiency). Thanks for you great answer!

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1590 · February 22, 2012 at 8:51 AM

Korion, I know someone who grates the carrot and then rinses it to get rid of some of the beta carotene. Not sure of the % mind.

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3703 · February 23, 2012 at 3:26 AM

The hair only shows metal if one is chelating... Thanks for your reply! Low iron is related to many things but low thyroid/adrenals the most common, I observe. Sounds like that is improving with the wispy hairs around your face!

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3703 · February 23, 2012 at 3:56 AM

http://sandiegoperformancetraining.com/?p=216

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4080 · February 23, 2012 at 6:57 PM

Grace- I have tried betaine in the past and it burned the hell out my poor inflamed digestion. But now, thanks to Peat, I am no longer inflamed, so I am experimenting with Betaine again. I don't think Peat specifically addresses Stomach Acid, per se.

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8933 · February 27, 2012 at 5:49 PM

It's so cool you got rid of your anemia by eating Peatarian : that's way lower on iron and he promotes caffeine to inhibit iron absorption.

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4080 · February 27, 2012 at 6:58 PM

I think the diet improved my health in such as way that I was better able to use and absorb iron correctly. I drink an americano every morning. I am super excited -maybe my tummy issues will start getting better!!

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4080 · March 02, 2012 at 10:30 PM

Tyler -I will update my post right now with a typical days food.

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955 · March 02, 2012 at 10:10 PM

Senneth, would you mind sharing with us what your eating regime looked like?

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8933 · April 13, 2012 at 3:42 PM

Have you ever tried to cut out all starch, Senneth?

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4080 · April 13, 2012 at 4:54 PM

Korion -I have been such an idiot! Peat told me like 6 months ago to cut out all starch and I just was in denial about it. I stopped eating those beloved potatoes about 2 weeks ago and I am finally seeing some MAJOR tummy improvements. Maybe the carrot is finally getting to do its magic. How about you?

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 6:42 PM

What does the coffee do to you btw? Never did it yet. I've also seen that there is a PH-like forum about Ray Peat now : http://peatarian.com. Can't wait to see other people's experiences. I told a girl to eat salt, she said she didn't have severe food reactions for over a year anymore...

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 3:02 PM

There's still a lot of work, but I'm coming close to real health nowadays. I have yet to try coffee, egg shell calcium, pregnenolone, cutting out more supplements (I'm way down on pills) and eating more OJ and milk (currently only 2 quarts of milk and 1 quart of OJ). My sugar intake is only 350g daily too, I'd like to make that higher now.

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4080 · May 01, 2012 at 10:53 PM

I drink coffee with cream, cc oil, and honey every morning. I adore it. But I haven't noticed any health benefits. I will look at the peatarian.com. Thanks! Every time I try to add more salt, like salt pills, I get the worst migraines.

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 6:41 PM

Pregenenolone boosts you? YESSS I absolutely love milk, can't stand cheese, so I had to drink milk and I just managed to tolerate it. I'm taking retinol though. Goat milk seemed to do me no good btw, but I could be wrong (I might try it again). Ever tried boiled or ultra-pasteurized milk? I don't eat veggies at all, don't see why I would bother :). I still have quite a lot of issues to solve, but the list is becoming quite short. Especially since I finally have the time to do whatever I want now. Cooking took so much time in the past, now it takes 10 minutes for most meals.

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4080 · May 01, 2012 at 6:27 PM

Korion -glad to hear you are doing so great!! Do you eat any veggies? like summer squash or mushrooms? I can imagine myself accidently eating some starch out of sheer lack of knowledge. I discovered that its the pregnenolone that is giving me such great energy levels. I have been doing the eggshell calcium but I still can't down the milk. I just tried to add goats milk in again and it was a huge fail. I am probably still getting too much muscle meat since I can't compensate with the milk. I do put cream in my coffee and eat a ton of cheese. A work in progress right!!?

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8933 · May 01, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Hahaha yeah I thought about you when Peat said *for people with very sensitive digestion, starch should be zero*. I have seen massive improvements, Senneth : temperature much higher, less shy, constantly walking around with a smile on my face, stronger hair, better brain function (I was able to work 24 hours in two days on a boring project), finally sleeping very very well, need less sleep (7-9 hours versus the old 11-12 hours), acne on my legs is finally disappearing, tinea is almost gone. Who would have thought sugar would solve my issues with bacteria :D?

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4080 · May 01, 2012 at 10:54 PM

Oops I also add gelatin to my coffee.

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8933 · May 02, 2012 at 1:08 PM

Sorry, that should have been *"for the first time in a year"* instead of *"for over a year anymore"*. I love the idea of "salt pills". I started getting migraines from OJ at the start of the diet, but it went away, maybe because of the epsom salt baths I take.

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4080 · May 04, 2012 at 4:59 PM

Korion -I haven't tried bright light. Sugar in a day -1 tablespoon honey, 40oz of OJ, coconut water 15g of sugar. So I haven't calculated it. I am actually starting to have some hypoglycemia episodes again though. Which haven't been an issue in a few years. Worrisome. Part of my problem is that since starting eating Peat style -I have a zero appetite. Danny Roddy thought it was because I was super low in zinc.

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8933 · May 04, 2012 at 8:53 AM

By the way, Senneth, ever tried bright light? Just plug in some good old, powerful incandescent light bulbs! They make me smile all the time :D, though they also give me zits haha. Any idea how much sugar you eat, too? I noticed I need a LOT of OJ to prevent hypoglycemia or other issues.

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8933 · May 06, 2012 at 8:50 AM

The zinc is a popular problem with anorexic people so he might have a point, but I guess it wasn't that since you eat oysters now? The only down-side with all this is zits : I'm getting a small amount of zits again (on my hands especially because the lights are next to my hands when I type :D), though overall my skin is looking better due to less inflammation. Still have to experiment with retinol though, my current intake is not that high...

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4080 · May 07, 2012 at 5:50 PM

Korion - I have stopped eating oysters, I think I got food poisoning or something from them -so now I can't even think about them without feeling nauseated. I have been supplementing zinc for 3 weeks, but no changes are apparent. I am going to consider upping my sugar, recipe for the fruit candy??

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8933 · May 06, 2012 at 8:47 AM

oh you haven't? You really ought to do it, finally my sinus issues are way down, I'm under the impression my digestion even improved from it, but my mood is better and I don't get tired after being on the computer anymore. I really saw a big difference, and I'm only at 120W right now (RP does 500W I believe). And 2 be honest, it looks like your diet is like 200g sugar, right? Cliff does 700g, I do 300-400g sugar but I need as much as Cliff does to prevent things like hypoglycemia etc. Gonna try to up my intake with homemade fruit candy today.

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273 · February 21, 2012 at 4:18 PM

I think part of the problem is how to define "failing" on a Ray Peat diet. Most people would consider gaining weight to be failure but this is far too simplistic. The goal of Peat's dietary recommendations isn't to lose or gain weight. It is to restore a youthful metabolism and optimize thyroid function. Changes in weight through gain/loss in muscle and fat come about as a result of that.

For some, like Cliff, it results in an underweight person putting on additional muscle mass. Others will lose body fat over time. But it's hardly a quick fix diet. It can takes months or even years in long-term hypothyroid cases to restore proper function as the various hormonal shifts occur and PUFA is released. There are some things that can be used to improve the transition time such as thyroid, niacinimade and aspirin, but they are usually not required.

I actually read through the entire Low-Carb Forum thread on Peat. There are definitely people there who "failed" in some way, whether it was gaining fat or poor blood sugar control. But in all those cases there was good reason for it. Some people took ice cream being allowed to mean you could eat it all the time. It's a thyroid supporting food but still very calorie dense and not meant to be eaten outside of certain situations (like before bed) unless metabolism is high. Pretty much every person who complained of blood sugar issues refused to drink orange juice saying they simply hated fruit. The potassium in orange juice is a key part of Peat's protocol for blood sugar control (Cathy documents this in the thread with her own tests). So Cliff has a point. In almost all the cases where people struggled, it was because they were cherry-picking the bits they liked from Peat's plan and discarding the rest. Quite simply it doesn't work that way. It requires a proper balance of sugar, protein and fat for your goals and also proper micro-nutrient supply.

Unfortunately finding that balance takes work because there is not a one-size-fits-all approach. Each situation is different and you will see throughout that thread the slightly different recommendations Peat makes based on each person's situation. But if you take the time to read his work and learn how to build a proper plan for your goals then from I've seen (and experienced) you will greatly improve your metabolic function.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=419742

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 5:55 PM

Fine then, no-one has ever failed at low-carb diets doing it right.

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8933 · February 21, 2012 at 4:59 PM

Thanks PrimalCG. This is why I said "doing it right". Eating tons of icecream... that's not Ray Peat, since your nutrient density is nihil... Ray Peat says *"Animal proteins, and fruits, because they contain the lowest levels of toxins, should form the basis of the diet."* (source : http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml)

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8933 · September 07, 2012 at 9:52 PM

I'm answering my own post with my own experiences. Using thyroid, progesterone, pregnenolone and applying most of Peats ideas took care of my most serious problems, and clearly increased my testosterone (not confirmed yet).

While my thyroid tests returned pretty normal I benefit tremendously from cytomel.

I rarely think about sinus issues anymore, which is big because I've had them for 2 years. My hair is going upwards again.

I'll update when my puffy face is normal again.

I have quite some acne now but I cut tons of pills out of my diet, including selenium bcomplex aspirin calcium and fatsolubles. With lots of retinol and aspirin I got less acne (only 1 real zit and some inflammation) but was often tired so I'm experimenting to see what doses I need.

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4458 · September 08, 2012 at 2:55 AM

cytomel, is that just T3? (or is there T4 in it as well)

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1786 · September 07, 2012 at 11:11 PM

exactly right brad. i can only eat cheese and butter. and i dont do well on all the liquids, but i do great on fresh pineapples. many of the supplements do work, but again self experimentation is key. i find i do well supplementing extra acetyl groups, carnitine and choline, as well as do TCM herbs. works for me better than not doing them.

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253 · September 07, 2012 at 10:21 PM

I've been following Peat's recommendations for diet, supplementation, and lifestyle for about 1.5 months so far and seem to be improving each day. There is definitely an adjustment period, and everything is so individualized you really must take the time to self-experiment to find your own sweet spot. After exhaustive experimentation, I cannot tolerate dairy of any kind.

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8933 · September 08, 2012 at 9:06 AM

I don't drink that much milk, but increasing metabolism, salt and sugar solved problems I had with it (hives, bloating). Cytomel is T3 yes, I don't seem to tolerate T4 well atm, Peat thought it might be the result of T4 accumulation due to selenium deficiency and/or liver issues. I actually got worse issues with only cynoplus than without cynoplus.

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 9:24 PM

Cliff or someone else needs to help us out here a bit and post what a proper Peat-approved diet would actually look like in practice. I suspect that 10 people reading his articles would come up with 10 different diets.

He seems to contend not only that humans don't require PUFAs in any amount, but that we don't even have cell membranes. What the hell? Anyway, setting that aside, I'd like to see a day's worth of meals that is consistent with this diet.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:45 PM

Primal Danny -Ya, I was already doing primal, so it wasn't a big change to me to cut out some veggie's (which I didn't like anyway) and add a ton of my beloved cheese. Who doesn't like drinking a ton of OJ! Liquid sugar with minerals. Yummy. I am slim, so the hell with it! ;)

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 10:03 PM

Are these typical of what obese people losing weight are eating?

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:47 PM

Primal Danny -Ya, I was already doing primal, so it wasn't a big change to me to cut out some veggie's (which I didn't like anyway) and add a ton of my beloved cheese. Who doesn't like drinking a ton of OJ! Liquid sugar with minerals. Yummy. I am slim, so the hell with it! ;) Peat says filtered OJ, that the pulp causes issues. But I eat an orange or some tropical fruits daily because I want to.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:04 PM

Travis - I don't know about the others but my appetite has just about died on this Peat way of eating. I eat about half the "amount" of food I did on paleo. I am just never ever hungry anymore. When I was trying the liquid milk thing -it was even less. I could go days without eating...but am trying to keep my food up to work on thyroid stuff.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 12:03 AM

Indeed they may. Lucky for me I tend to judge theories by the qualities of the people that believe in them.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:17 PM

I have no idea if I am eating more or less calories, I am just never hungry. I didn't come into the whole thing for weight loss -so I monitor that. I am super active: walking, yoga, 20m power workout daily. I also hike and rollerblade a ton in the summer. I ate a lot of coconut oil before and still do -so maybe my metabolism is exactly the same?

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:26 PM

Travis, thanks! I just keep cherry picking from a variety of area's on my own health quest. I try to not stick with one regime or another, but am willing to try out things I have researched and think might be helpful. Right now I am on a peat-style binge, who knows whats next!?

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11204 · February 21, 2012 at 9:44 PM

He doesn't say we don't have cell membranes. I think he was saying that the modern view of the cell overemphasizes it's role. Peat seems to be promulgating 30s era biology over what he considers corporately controlled modern biology. I don't know enough about either to see where he might be right or where he might be wrong. He seems to be wrong on DHA, especially for infants. But here again, I don't know enough about the processes to critique those studies.

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 10:12 PM

I saw a quote of Peat's somewhere stating that he eats pretty much all day long while remaining almost completely sedentary. Sounded like my own personal version of Hell. Good to see that that isn't the only way, but maybe that means you're doing it wrong?

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 10:08 PM

But you are consuming more calories? I thought the point was to rev the metabolism.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:36 PM

I think this link is a pretty accurate list of what Ray Peat eats http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=419742 (He recently said he uses 1% milk)

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18635 · February 21, 2012 at 10:28 PM

Yo Travis....I'm not an advocate of the Peat diet at all. I especially find the concept that we all need a racing heart rate and supersonic metabolism to be well as a bit dubious and refuted in enough places that its definitely out on a limb.....BUT here is some interesting stuff on all that cell membrane issue http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Do%20you%20believe%20in%20MRI%20scanners%3F You can follow his links to the author of the research he's pointing to. Interesting/radical theories may still have some validity.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 9:33 PM

Travis -I do a coffee with cream, honey, and gelatin in the morning. A couple of boiled eggs with about 16oz of OJ, then later cheese -an orange maybe or papaya -a couple bites of beef jerky. Dinner -usually shrimp, potatoes with cheese and butter, more OJ. Although most Peats would do an addition of liquid milk. I don't eat a ton of food.

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 10:01 PM

These seem like a lot more reasonable diets than I was expecting. All of that OJ and milk sound pretty unappetizing, but I suppose the overall breakdown is fairly similar to my tuber-heavy diet. I was picturing a largely frugivorous diet, which has always been strikingly unsatisfying to me, satiety-wise. I guess this diet is supposed to be anti-satiety though.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Yesterday I ate, 2 litres OJ, 4 pints whole milk, 100g cheese, 2 duck eggs, 1/2lb oxtail, 400g potato, a lot coffee with a lot of sugar and a bucket load of salt. Typically 50/30/20 CFP.

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39841 · February 21, 2012 at 10:22 PM

Yeah, who cares about strict adherence to one dietary religion or another? That's awesome that it pointed you in a good direction. A few more tweaks and you'll probably get the remaining issues sorted.

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4080 · February 21, 2012 at 10:18 PM

I have no idea if I am eating more or less calories, I am just never hungry. I didn't come into the whole thing for weight loss -so I don't monitor that. I am super active: walking, yoga, 20m power workout daily. I also hike and rollerblade a ton in the summer. I ate a lot of coconut oil before and still do -so maybe my metabolism is exactly the same? I could be doing it "wrong" but I am not exactly militant about doing it "right" or I would be drinking a ton more milk.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:42 PM

Apart from the OJ (is this *necessary* or can you eat oranges) this sounds fairly paleo to me - ok, primal.

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39841 · February 22, 2012 at 4:58 AM

Thanks for the link, Jay. My knowledge of biochemistry is miniscule compared to any of these guys, so I'm ill-equipped to dispute any of it, but of everything of Peat's I've read, those things stand out the most. Drink 10 gallons of OJ? Yeah, whatever. We don't require unsaturated fats in any amount? Wait a sec.... I hope he's right about that. It'd make diet composition a lot easier for me.

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661 · February 22, 2012 at 6:19 AM

His thesis is that energy and structure are interdependent at every level. In practice this means that providing energy to the smallest unit of living matter, the cell can have a “ripple effect” throughout the entire organism. Cells form tissues and tissues form organs. There two posts should bring anyone up to speed if they're interested in his stuff. http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2012/1/16/the-lens-of-a-peat-a-tarian-part-i-the-perfect-health-diet.html http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2012/2/13/why-thyroid-is-so-important-a-response-to-dr-paul-jaminet.html

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1453 · February 23, 2012 at 9:05 PM

My Peat-inspired diet consists of orange juice, milk, ripe tropical fruits, cheese, honey, liver, mussels, eggs, shellfish, beef, salt, coconut oil and butter. Typical day is milk, OJ/fruit and 1 egg for breakfast, milk, cheese and OJ during the day and meat/fish with coffee in the evening. Ratio is about 50/30/20 (carbs/protein/fats) am also experimenting with ice cream. Started a few weeks ago (coming from low-carb), so it's to early to draw a conclusion. This may give you an overview. He is only a researcher, so you can apply his research do different diet-versions.

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1026 · April 07, 2012 at 7:58 AM

@Travis Ray Peat said in a podcast that ideally you should get 50% of your calories from fruit, but I think he prefers milk if fruit is not good quality. He also thinks macronutrients should be around 33/33/33 CFP but says it's more about the quality than the quantity. I've been listening to too many podcasts recently :D. The guy is awesome to listen to : he is a library of studies in itself, remembers names of tons of researchers and always has cool anecdotes about Mexico etc.

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4620 · February 21, 2012 at 8:21 PM

I suppose you can say I failed, on one aspect at least. Big bad dairy. I've been somewhat lactose intolerant all my life, and drinking milk gives me the runs no matter what I do. Plus I find milk gross. So my calcium:phosphorous ratio might make Peat sad. That being said, once I increased my fruit intake and lowered my PUFA intake to ~5g/day, my premature hair loss stopped and I have a very consistent positive mood and high energy.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:50 AM

Drinking milk does not work for me either, but it isn't absolutely necessary on Peat's diet.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 11:31 PM

If you eat enough fructose Peat has said the ratio matters less. Can't remember where I heard that though; maybe herb doctors?

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269 · February 22, 2012 at 10:26 AM

For lactose intolerance, have you tried simply supplementing with lactase?

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4620 · February 22, 2012 at 10:04 PM

@Poisson: I used to take lactase when I was little and it worked pretty well. I can't be bothered nowadays, mostly cause I don't like milk anyways. @Mallory: Yeah, I don't find that kind of liquid diet satiating. I'd rather just eat the whole oranges. I'm gonna start an experiment soon with supplementing egg shell calcium to match my phosphorous intake 1:1.

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2231 · February 22, 2012 at 6:07 PM

peat told me my problem was calcium to phosphorous ratios too...actually, everything peat has told me has been spot on true actually kinda scary, i just cant do a liquid OJ and milk diet b/c i dont process dairy and i cant live on liquid food, its not my thing. it may well work, but the 'diet' is made extremely difficult w/o milk products

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1026 · April 07, 2012 at 7:56 AM

@JRAC you probably heard it on the East West Healing podcast. I've been listening to that A LOT and he mentions that, in the context of adequate fructose, the ratio is less important. I personally am not a fan of milk either, so I try to drink a lot of fruit juices and eat fruit. The liquid diet is very satiating IMO if the fruit is eaten with protein (eg. eggs or gelatin).

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11204 · February 21, 2012 at 8:05 PM

The first time I read Peat's stuff, I tried drinking orange juice and bone broth together. Two sixteen ounce mixes of the stuff a day. It tastes pretty good. Anyway, after some period of time, I started feeling bad. If I consistently eat carbs above some as yet undetermined level, I end up feeling like crap. This particular experiment was not as bad as the what happened with tuber derived starches, but it was still uncomfortable. I suppose this could go under the heading of 'not doing it right'. The raw carrot recommendation seems to be the most interesting and, possibly, beneficial one. Probably at least as powerful as some drugs on the market- I don't eat very much of it.

I don't have the sort of objective other people trying Peat's stuff have, so I don't know whether or not this is helpful to others. I am in unexplained nerve pain (probably from dentistry) and am willing to try and chase down stuff that may help. Unfortunately, Peat's idea that we need to supplement with calcium, and the more ubiquitous advice that we supplement with iodine makes this worse immediately.

I do, however, think I have learned something valuable from Peat. Weight-loss isn't paleo. Oh, paleo helps you lose weight, but the process of losing weight, the hormone profile it encourages- staying in that mode for years is probably not a good idea. Now Peat's diet will keep you in one biochemical stage as well, but I am still inclined to believe that variation is the key for appropriate health. We can't really be sure exactly what our ancestors ate, but surely the seasonality of food isn't a neolithic invention.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 8:11 PM

Seasonality is all but gone now, which I consider a serious issue. I do wonder if the natural reduction in veg intake during winter fulfils some of the ideas Peat has. On the weight-loss though, I think it depends where your yard-stick is. If you are severely overweight then the paleo thing is to lose that. Otherwise though, I agree bodyfat should rise and fall with the seasons but that's not anti-paleo. In fact in general paleo doesn't have to be about losing-weight at all.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 4:11 PM

Good point PrimalCG, I never read about calcium supplementation either. He even says iodine-deficiency is extremely rare and iodine will probably make matters worse.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 9:40 PM

Yes not eating all those obesogenic vegetables allows you to lose fat in winter.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 12:00 AM

I realize it's a lot easier to make personal comments than anything constructive, but on the off-chance you have something useful to say I'll try to be clearer. Your comments do not make sense to me. If you are only interested in making terribly clever in-jokes for the benefit of people with your knowledge and way of thinking then that's fine, otherwise you might want to consider reasons beyond brain damage for someone not agreeing with you.

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11204 · February 22, 2012 at 4:58 PM

Yes, Peat recommends skim milk (or 2%), and I when I tried to put more iodine in my diet, I used seaweed. I didn't mean to imply Peat was recommending supplements, but that he was recommending a level of calcium that I just couldn't handle. I can't handle the casein in milk, and I imagine that even if I could get the calcium from food, I'd still be in more pain than I am in at the lower paleo calcium intake.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:59 PM

So eating vegetables is Peat's theory for the obesity epidemic? I hadn't realized that.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 10:07 PM

I think you need some more glucose PrimalDanny... your brain appears to have malfunctioned.

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273 · February 22, 2012 at 7:06 AM

I'm not sure where the ideas for supplementing calcium and iodine come from. Peat doesn't believe supplements are a good idea for anything, except possibly Vitamin E. He believes calcium to phosphate ratio is important, so you should eat calcium rich foods like milk and cheese. He also says iodine deficiency is not an issue except in rare cases with some usually higher altitude groups. He would not suggest supplementing iodine because it would hurt more than harm thyroid if you already had enough in your diet.

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8933 · September 22, 2012 at 11:24 AM

You can't handle milk? Well who can, after paleo.... Aspirin, sugar and salt usually solve that. But even so, are you saying you can't handle eggshell calcium?

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11204 · September 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM

I couldn't handle milk before paleo either. I'm not sure about the eggshell calcium. I've tried a bit of it, but it is hard to stomach on a regular basis, and if I do a lot of different things at one time, I'm not sure where the increased pain is coming from. Calcium and iodine supplements appear to make the nerve in my face that likes to send messages of pain all the damn time worse.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 3:25 PM

Peatartarianism (if that's the name) isn't a weightloss diet. It's much more than that.

I've gone from maintenance at 2.2kcal on average to 3.5kcal...

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19120 · February 21, 2012 at 3:39 PM

@PrimalDenny, I have a suspicion @JRAC doesn't understand that 1 Calorie = 1000 calories, and 2.2k Calories doesn't equal 2.2kcal. Maybe we should switch to Joules. ;-)

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 4:03 PM

3500 kcal... ;-)

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:47 AM

*"Sorry, I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get even one straight answer."* Because Ray Peat is not as simple as "drink OJ", it's much more than that. It's very hard to explain it fast. That's why we all continuously tell you to read Ray Peat. Your questions are not specific, and things like *"it's using your greater knowledge and experience of a subject to answer a few specific questions"* aren't really helping.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:48 AM

Have you ever tried explaining paleo to random people, PrimalDanny? Obviously not. If I tell them what I eat, the first thing they say is "ooooh, Atkiiiiins". So yes it is harder than you think.

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273 · February 22, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Haha, brilliant answer from the guy who refuses to read Peat's work.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 10:00 PM

It's not cherry-picking, it's using your greater knowledge and experience of a subject to answer a few specific questions. Now *that's* something that isn't really hard.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 8:49 AM

You want an answer like "Ray Peat = OJ + Milk", but there is no such answer.

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273 · February 21, 2012 at 4:23 PM

Not sure why you would bring the effects on "the tribe" into it. Obviously if there are limited food sources then metabolism would be lower to compensate. Doesn't mean that functioning that way is optimal. Why would I want to increase food intake? Well, perhaps because it's a consequence of increased energy expenditure? For me that means improved mood, energy levels, athletic performance, cognitive function and sexual function over various paleo dietary approaches I've attempted. I'll take eating more if it means continuing to receive those benefits.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 11:20 AM

Paleo is eating in a manner consistent with our evolutionary history. And yes there are as many definitions as there are people. What I'm hearing is that there's no absolutes for Ray Peat and that most primal diets could be described as Peat diets. And that measuring failure seems to be based mainly on one's ability to divine what Peat would do in your specific situation.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 9:42 PM

I'm not going to cherrypick for you. Stop being so lazy and go read a few articles; it's really not hard. I never said you had any problems...

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 3:31 PM

3.5 Calories? I wasn going to ask for more explanation of the first line but this one is even more inexplicable.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 4:10 PM

Genuinely though, why would you want to increase the amount of food you need for maintenance by over 50%? Sounds like a surefire failure for the tribe but you suggest it gives you some advantage in the modern world?

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 6:24 PM

Calorie restriction works because it stops the accumulation of unsaturated fats in tissues like the brain and the reduced build up of heavy metals. You really should read some of RPs work with comments like that. Calorie restrictors van keep their sex drive of a panda, cold hands and infertility... Just read some of RPs articles it's not hard to see his views on longevity.

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM

Oh, and since you like the analogy, low-carb eating is much more than don't eat carbs.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 6:50 PM

I'm sure he has opinions. But I gather there's a lot of work, and it's not straight-forward finding what to read. So I'm just trying to get the basic idea, am I risking my health or an early grave by not having year-round access to oranges? Or will I just lose weight faster (while building muscle)? Or is it just a necessary step to 'fix' thyroid for people who got it badly wrong before, and the reason why I have no problems with my sex drive is because I didn't make myself severely ill?

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 5:53 PM

The tribe? Well, this is *Paleo*hacks. The occasional nod to natural selection isn't entirely out of place. Anyway, sounds to me like the concept is live fast and die young. Which I'm sure feels good, but so does cake. If the key question is longevity then don't we need to wait another 50 years or so to get some data on that? Aside from that, flatly contradicting the consensus on caloric restriction seems a smart move.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Wait, what is low-carb then, apart from "don't eat carbs"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 4:33 PM

You'd have to read some of Peat's work to understand; you're aiming for a thyroid driven oxidative metabolism for health and longevity. The number of calories (along with temps, heartrate etc) are just indicators... I don't like spending more on food. lol. When I was IFing and PHD macros I had a resting heartrate of 43... now I'm pushing 80. Warmer and generally feel like a don.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 7:50 PM

Sorry, I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get even one straight answer. I don't believe I have any problems for him to fix. You believe you've found something worth commenting obliquely on. More power to you.

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1590 · February 21, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Just look at the articles entitled with the words longevity and such in their title... seriously

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5188 · February 22, 2012 at 12:19 PM

It's so much more than that, there's more to read than wikipedia.

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5188 · March 02, 2012 at 7:34 PM

Ah, I see you've got a basic grasp of irony at least.

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78422 · September 21, 2012 at 11:14 PM

Did it for 30 days. Cut my meat by 2/3, switched it almost all from beef with just a little fish to mostly fish and seafood. Replaced all my varied fats with coconut. Started drinking OJ throughout the day and indulged in ice cream from time to time. Included lots of gelatin etc... Drank 30oz of whole milk per day.

Dropped all supplements but Vitamin E and asprin.

Had heart palpatations, blood sugar swings, gained 6lbs instead of my average of losing 3-4 per month, headaches, morning nausea etc...

I don't have thyroid issues so Ray Peats nonsense is completely irrelevant to me and is the opposite of healthy.

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8933 · September 22, 2012 at 7:28 AM

Cool. What supps did you drop?

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78422 · September 23, 2012 at 5:10 PM

Multi vitamin and fish oil.

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8933 · October 05, 2012 at 9:38 AM

Okay... did you measure temp and pulse too? If so, did it increase or not? Peat isn't a protocol, he just puts everything into context. Drinking lots of fluids is a bad idea if you're not eating adequate sodium, for example.

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1631 · September 21, 2012 at 10:41 PM

Ray Peat has helped me feel more relaxed and sleep better.. Ever since the addition of more fruit and raw milk I already feel better. I went further and removed almost all PUFA's meaning I'm not eating much chicken or even fish. I'm eating OJ, milk, lots of fruit and fatty meats. I just sleep better. I remember zero-carb I could not sleep.

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8933 · September 22, 2012 at 11:22 AM

I couldn't sleep on zero-carb either, woke up every night with diarrhea, palpitations, ... Eating tons of salt helped.

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2175 · March 03, 2012 at 12:20 AM

I propose that one should do Ray Peat protocol once a week, and Primal/Paleo the other 6 days. A Hybrid/compromise that may help the body balance, as nature is usually balanced. Since some parts of our biology require spikes to improve function, other areas require less frequency of variation. Appears to work for some, but may not work for others.

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115 · April 23, 2014 at 2:50 PM

I just recently started looking in to the Ray Peat experience. And it doesn't seem better than many other solutions. Some failure, some successes.

Here's a site one person dedicated trying out the diet:

http://ispeatright.blogspot.se/

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0 · October 03, 2012 at 12:36 PM

New to paleohacks but I'm taking it that there is no way to message people individually?

Dylan - if you're reading this I'd be interested to know how long it took for you to resolve your low testosterone and fix your thyroid using the Peat method as I'm in a similar boat, feeling sh*t and your story gave me some inspiration.

I also have messed myself up into a hypometabolic state with overtraining, IF and the party lifestyle (stimulants and booze)

Be good to hear back from you.

Thanks

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0 · October 03, 2012 at 6:23 PM

can't seem to add a comment to his question?

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4703 · October 03, 2012 at 2:30 PM

If you comment on his question directly he'll be more apt to respond as he will get a notification that you did so.

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0 · October 03, 2012 at 4:41 PM

thanks for that

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 7:56 PM

Do people fail to stick to Ray Peat's guidelines despite their best intentions? Yes.
Do people fail to fix certain problems despite sticking to Peat's best advice? Yes. Could the same be said about any dietary approach? Yes.

In discussing and comparing different approaches to diet I feel we ought to be more responsible than the majority. We can all list the many many flaws in the arguments made for conventional wisdom. Many people have lost weight eating mainly whole grains. Self-reporting on adherence and success to a diet which is essentially self-defined rather than specified by the researcher is useless at best and dangerously misleading at worst.

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1453 · February 21, 2012 at 8:19 PM

You obviously never intended to grasp his ideas.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 9:06 AM

You're confusing "failing to apply the diet" to "failing to get healthier on the diet". As every diet has bounds (though paleo as a diet has practically no bounds), it is very well possible to fail on a diet even though you did it right. For example, I can do the SAD right but still fail to get healthier.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:12 PM

It's the question I'm struggling to grasp, not the ideas.

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5188 · February 21, 2012 at 9:39 PM

For the benefit of those silently offended enough to downvote this, I mean that the question appears to apply a double-standard. It's essentially impossible to fail if you do it right because failing is being defined by whether or not you do it right. To compare this to the supposed many failures on low-carb (which many people have in fact found to be useful in their situation) is disingenuous. It's the same kind of irresponsible reasoning used in much CW dietary advice which disregards the details that make all the difference.

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8933 · February 22, 2012 at 9:07 AM

On paleo though, I guess it's not possible to fail, since your possibilities are endless. This is why I don't consider paleo to be a diet, I kinda call it my super-diet since it is above many other diets : low-carb, Ray Peat, zero-carb, raw-vegan, ... all the foods they eat is natural and thus paleo.

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