3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
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Should we have a little more humility when making observations and recommendations for other people?

by (11986)
Updated about 8 hours ago
Created December 18, 2011 at 11:11 PM

I've only been on PaleoHacks for eight months, so maybe there have been other streaks like this, but it seems to me that the past couple of weeks have seen an unusually high level of know-it-all prescriptiveness in the questions -- questions, folks -- being "asked."

Look, I'm zero-carb/near zero-carb, and have been since September 2009. I've been VLC since February 2007. I've never experienced such amazing health as I have in the last several years, and as it says in my profile, the lower my carbs go -- yes, even to the last couple of decimals left in 99.9%-meat diet -- the better I look and feel. My labs back it up, too.

So you can bet I'm sorely tempted to tell people here who are having problems with Paleo that the one, right, true and only way to go is zero carb. Not losing that last ten pounds? Zero carb! Tired, grumpy, and plagued by lawn gophers? Ditch the veggies! Hate your fat or skinny ass, your fat or skinny spouse, your lazy or hyper dog? Get out of denial, drop that salad fork, and your troubles will be over.

But I don't do that. Not because I possess piles and piles of discipline that would otherwise go to waste (cough), but because I know that I have no earthly fricking clue if my very specific way of eating would work for someone else. I'm dying, for example, to counsel Evelyn/CarbSane to just give zero carb a try for one month, like I did, and see if it changes her mind. But I have no idea 1) if she's ever tried it -- maybe she has and it totally screwed her over, and 2) even if she hasn't tried it, maybe it really would screw her over, and then I'd feel like a jackass. (Boy, and then she'd really have some negative shit to say about low-carb, lol.)

I don't mind when people have confidence in their way of eating, especially when they have solid results to show for it. And I don't mind confidence in mere opinons, either; after all, if you didn't believe in your own opinions, you'd have different ones (citations do help in that case, though). And I generally enjoy PaleoHacks' atmosphere of cordial competitiveness and occasionally sharp repartee.

But I also think it ought to be acknowledged that none of us knows everything about physiology, and certainly none of us knows everything about some other person. Does it help us get closer to the truth about health and nutrition when we dismiss experience that contradicts our theories as mere "self-deception" or, more insidiously, as outright deception? As a thriving ZCer, should I say that Cliff, for example, is just lying about his OJ consumption? Aside from being rude and contemptible, wouldn't such a denial of his experience keep me from seeing reality, and from adjusting my theories accordingly? And isn't that the point of this site, to try to get at the truth, and not just confirm our pet theories?

Ba20b502cf02b5513ea8c4bb2740d8cb
0 · August 14, 2013 at 4:21 AM

yeah humility is normally good a policy in any situation.

Eed7dabde3d61910685845e04605267f
0 · December 02, 2012 at 8:00 AM

Somehow I don't think not walking in front of cars is informed by other people's experiencs as much as it is by theory...

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6
0 · April 29, 2012 at 7:20 PM

love that this is tagged "arrogance." ha.

7255a87872b75e6f691d84dca769b87e
0 · December 27, 2011 at 8:49 PM

'"Do I sound like a fruititarian?"' xD

85026a0abe715229761956fbbee1cba0
0 · December 24, 2011 at 2:46 AM

And Josh, do you chase your tail incessantly and eat your own poop? :P

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 22, 2011 at 12:47 AM

Satya, not everyone who is a ZCer has a "fear" of carbohydrate. I have *experience* that shows me, time and again, that even small quantities of carbohydrate, even in the form of vegetables and cream, bring joint pain and weight gain very quickly. Mocking others' experience, or devaluing it as "fear," is exactly what I'm taking aim at with this question. It's like telling a kid with a peanut allergy that he needs to get over his unreasonable aversion to peanuts. Quite reckless. IMHO.

7b11ed525ffa23bc7257684e27488a6a
0 · December 21, 2011 at 8:20 PM

Good answer. Demonizing substances that are required by the body - like cholesterol and glucose (for vegans and zcers, respectively) - is just not healthy, imho. Now, if you choose to eat as an outlier without the fear of every carb (or saturated fat or cholesterol molecule), then great. But I think when fear is a factor in the choosing of foods, then it's unfortunate. Weight loss should not be the end all of an eating plan. Sound nutrition should be, imho.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5
0 · December 21, 2011 at 12:50 PM

@thhq: It was sort-of me I guess. I've said I don't understand why folks want to follow a diet that transforms (if it does actually do what it's supposed to do) one's metabolism into that of an old, fat person. I'll add diabetic to that list as well as diabetics also have low RQ. If eating meat/fat makes one lean, I suppose more power to them to bank on that leading to longevity. I'm not going to construct my nutritional philosophy on experiments in worms that can all but suspend metabolism completely for long periods.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · December 19, 2011 at 7:59 PM

@evelyn, was it you that called the meat/fat diet an old man's diet? LC works for almost anyone to escape diabetes (and ADA's carb exchange counting predates Atkins by decades) and obesity, but once you're out of that the macros aren't as important. The scaremongering used to promote continued eating skewed macros irks me, especially because it is so driven towards selling supplements, diet plans and books. I exercise so that I can eat a young man's diet again, and that's not piles of pork chops at every meal.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157
0 · December 19, 2011 at 5:47 PM

Kissing the ground is a great way to get probiotics. Shari's answer is not silly even though Shari is a dummy.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 19, 2011 at 4:46 PM

Yeah, I probably skated a little close to the loaded edge myself in this call-out, er, question. But you're right, the votes generally do seem inversely proportional to the degree of sincere questioning.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 19, 2011 at 4:18 PM

Glad you didn't delete it; it's a good rant. I agree that I'm probably an outlier, along with some others who do well on ZC. I know of too many people who didn't thrive on ZC to be a zealot about it. And the cacaphony of scientific and pseudo-scientific voices drowning each other out is the reason I don't blindly follow research, but stick to my own experience instead. Even research that seems to make sense can be wrong for reasons we just don't understand yet (well, that I don't understand, anyway).

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM

I am very much like my dog, I try to eat when I am hungry and I eat what I am naturally meant to eat, sleep when I am tired, play when I feel playful and when I get stressed I go lay in the shade.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:18 PM

stabby, stabbin and stompin as stabby is wont to do...

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 5:05 AM

Devil's in the details

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63
0 · December 19, 2011 at 3:03 AM

Going high carb and low fat led me to my leanest state ever. Subsequent experiments in higher fat intakes and IF led to me gaining fat and spinning my wheels. So that's another n=1. I completely agree though, do whatever works for you.

6d06945c5244687be2f6a9ca731b9cc6
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:44 AM

I'm working on such an n=1 right now!

Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:37 AM

Re: nipple massage, I contend that Shari already taught me everything I need to know.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:31 AM

Sounds like somebody could use a nap.

85026a0abe715229761956fbbee1cba0
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:04 AM

You're on a roll today, "Rosa"Dragonfly! @ Andy.That follows the Diurnal flow of Dragonfly's cortisol comment. Well done.

85026a0abe715229761956fbbee1cba0
0 · December 19, 2011 at 1:55 AM

@ albert Your profile says you are "exited" by paleo. I think more people over forty-45 consider Paleo "exciting", then the younger ones.Isn't it damn "exciting to be going backward in age,while everyone else around you is aging at an alarming pace. The joy of not being one of those fast aging contemporaries, is "exciting". And by the way, what does that answer above mean?

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 1:02 AM

Dragonfly -- lol!! You made me choke on my coconut oil-avocado smoothie. :)

0a2dd50f2d3951bf3fb83fc4638c9512
0 · December 19, 2011 at 1:02 AM

(taking a shower, shaving and putting on a nice tie for potatoes)

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 1:01 AM

I think we should clearly all be nicely aggressive in the morning, with a gradual decline during the day. By evening of course, our blue-light-emitting computers will be turned off.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 1:01 AM

Rose, I heart you, and I heart this post.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:57 AM

Dear Rose~ I am generally in agreement, but if everyone gets really humble & oh,so PC here, where will I get my daily shot of cortisol?

36ba71ea8bc4f736f4113433fde572bd
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:57 AM

+1 for Rose, and a gentle suggestion, that humility extends "beyond" not telling others what to do, but also back towards oneself... I have read numerous stories about a person adopting a way of eating, having it work wonderfully for some time, then the wonder tapers off... and maybe even goes backwards towards not good... and hard as it is to do, people need to be humble enough with *themselves*, too, to admit that even to themselves their ideas may not be right for the long term.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:39 AM

@AndyM, yes someone mentioned the other day that the silly answers are getting more votes than truly helpful ones. Wish we could distinguish.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:37 AM

Humility and reflective caution ftw. :)

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:23 AM

Well stabbed Stabby

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:14 AM

+100 from a fellow long term VLC-ZC human (5 years). I don't preach, I just tell my personal experience and anyone is free to take away what they will :)

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:08 AM

Isn't that why we're going for Ancestral these days? I just personally find it a whole lot more meaningful to identify and acknowledge the compromises I'm making and being honest with myself. Am I cheating for a good reason? Am I allowing fruit so that I don't have to waste time baking squash? Did I really try every option and get all the information before writing off low/high carb? There's no right or wrong answers to these questions sure, but I don't think it's anti-thetical to the paleo movement to ask them to ourselves all the same.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:08 AM

Paleo2.0 that's hilarious. I can't stop laughing.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:07 AM

Isn't that why we're going for Ancestral these days? I just personally find it a whole lot more meaningful to identify and acknowledge the compromises I'm making and being honest with myself. Am I cheating for a good reason? Am I allowing fruit so that I don't have to waste time baking squash? Did I really try every option and get all the information before writing off low/high carb? There's no right or wrong answers to these questions sure, but I don't think it's anti-thetical to the paleo movement to ask them to ourselves all the same.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:07 AM

No we would call them WAPFs and love them just as much. I know you're not missing my point but just want to banter. Look no one really has all the answers. I'm not convinced anyone has any answers many days. This is all new thinking and new ideas keep coming out every day. No one has the final say on any of this yet. We're just not to that point. We agree on real, whole foods making up the bulk of the diet and that industrial oils may not be the best choice. Beyond that it's high carb/ZC/low carb/ no such thing as a carb/Immune protocol/No cheats/20% cheats/fruit/no fruit...PALEO!

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM

I was just questioning this being the highest ranking answer Nance.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:00 AM

No we would call them WAPFs and love them just as much. I know you're not missing my point but just want to banter. Look no one really has all the answers. I'm not convinced anyone has any answers many days. This is all new thinking and new ideas keep coming out every day. No one has the final say on any of this yet. We're just not to that point. We agree on real, whole foods making up the bulk of the diet and that industrial oils may not be the best choice. Beyond that it's high carb/ZC/low carb/ no such thing as a carb/Immune protocol/No cheats/20% cheats/fruit/no fruit...PALEO!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:57 PM

I wasn't thinking of a particular person, AndyM, but I do think some of the conversations have been cranky lately. Not open-minded, not exploratory, just combative. In the area of "This is what I think and if you don't agree you're wrong." That's not helpful.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:57 PM

<3 .

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:56 PM

Huey, I don't see your point with that url. Also, I don't know if performing a Clockwork Orange procedure on people who disagree with you is exactly what Rose is talking about.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:55 PM

Amen, Shari .

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:50 PM

Stabby, great stabbing points. Especially the long-term issue -- I don't know if I'll be doing as swell next year as I am this year. And of course, nobody else knows that about themselves either. We're all gambling with our lives, even those who think they're playing it safe. For now, I actually take a bit of refuge in the lack of data on long-term extreme low-carbing (you can't *prove* it's bad for me, lol), but ultimately that's a lack I'd like to see addressed. And for other ways of eating too, of course.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:48 PM

I use other people's experiences all the time. It's a vital component of learning. I'm simply not able to conduct all the experiments myself to survive the modern world. I've never walked out in front of a car, however I'm pretty confident in my assumption that, based on the experiences of others, my best course of action is to be careful crossing the road.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:46 PM

Shari - please don't talk about Kamal that way!

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:43 PM

What if your decision is that your ancestors have been grinding bread for thousands of years, and you feel like crap after only a few hours if you don't eat wheat, so you're going to eat bread at every meal? Is THAT paleo?

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:41 PM

I'd just naturally suppose that it's more than likely no two people are ever exposed to the exact same set of inputs. "It's genetics" is an easy get-out clause that we learned from CW. Be nice to throw a bit more rigour at the things we can actually control first.

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:38 PM

Let's save the URL to that thread, okay? See if this works: http://paleohacks.com/questions/84328/is-there-something-we-can-attribute-to-as-to-why-some-people-dont-do-well-on-zc#axzz1gvpDPtov

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:37 PM

Well, yes, it's true that we're more alike than not. I'm more like my adoptive mom than I am like my dog. Yet I got fat eating the same diet she stayed lean on, and I got lean and healthy eating more like my dog, lol. Part of the reason we're in this quandary is that it's clear different people respond to the same inputs differently, so while I like to smirk at the "precious snowflake" business too, I have to admit there's some truth in it.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:36 PM

Sorry but, helpful? Not being cranky but...

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:34 PM

Cordain says potatoes aren't paleo. If we can't reach consensus on a damn potato then we have some inherent problems we need to address and one solution is to open our arms a bit wider instead of closing them together. I think we need to allow people to call themselves paleo if they are taking dietary guidance based on ancestral evidence. The end. Full stop. You look at that evidence, seek guidance,,if needed, from others who have done the same then you make the best decisions you can for your body and your life. THAT is paleo.

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:31 PM

I think I did that once already. Got a little bit sick on too much tallowy bone broth. are you saying I should gorge myself silly often enough to measure the results? Yuck! Do you do that?

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:27 PM

On the other hand, we are all by definition alike to a remarkable degree. I think a lot of our current confusion is rooted in our attempts as a species to divorce ourselves from the rest of the animal kingdom. Not everyone who reads about paleo suddenly becomes a first-class researcher or experimentalist. Some questions do have objective answers, and some people who come here would rather get those than a lot of well-meaning encouragement to go out there and discover it for themselves.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:27 PM

You recently made a statement that excess dietary fat does not get stored as fat. Go eat 5000kcal of VLC food and report back.

85026a0abe715229761956fbbee1cba0
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:26 PM

+1 Perhaps Xmas brings out more whinning about people's existential crisis. Perhaps its just most temptations to eat NADs Perhaps its people eating more NADs. A more Paleo answer: Winter. The other SAD: Seasonal Affective Disorder ,and not just Xmas.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:25 PM

+1 Me too, Rose! I've been starting to think some folks are just cranky--too much holiday stress? Not enough carbs? (Just kidding!) :-))

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:24 PM

You and the filthmeister need to stay out of this one. Do not soil the golden ground of the Rose with your disgusting thoughts.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:24 PM

+1 Rose, nicely written.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:22 PM

+1 I think I also heard Aravindan mention a few other things you kiss also.

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3
10653 · December 18, 2011 at 11:28 PM

People recommend only what they know, which is to say, in other words, what has worked for them or what they have seen work for other people, and perhaps that has only produced a very narrow range of results, so they think: "yes, this must be right." Because why would you witness something that didn't work and say "hey, this completely bombed but you should try it anyway."
Very rarely (or maybe not even at all) have I seen people who have tried high-carb for an extended length of time to know for sure what effect it has on their body, and then subsequently switch to low-carb and observed its effects. That would be a great n=1 if I ever heard of one, but sadly, I don't think it has been done. And even if it has, the subject size would be so small it would be simply unreliable. You said it perfectly: no one knows everything about human physiology.
I think the lesson of the story here folks, is don't ever let anyone else's experiences control what you do in your life. If you seek help, take into consideration other people's advice, but it would be foolish to assume it will work for you.

Eed7dabde3d61910685845e04605267f
0 · December 02, 2012 at 8:00 AM

Somehow I don't think not walking in front of cars is informed by other people's experiencs as much as it is by theory...

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 5:05 AM

Devil's in the details

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63
0 · December 19, 2011 at 3:03 AM

Going high carb and low fat led me to my leanest state ever. Subsequent experiments in higher fat intakes and IF led to me gaining fat and spinning my wheels. So that's another n=1. I completely agree though, do whatever works for you.

6d06945c5244687be2f6a9ca731b9cc6
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:44 AM

I'm working on such an n=1 right now!

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:48 PM

I use other people's experiences all the time. It's a vital component of learning. I'm simply not able to conduct all the experiments myself to survive the modern world. I've never walked out in front of a car, however I'm pretty confident in my assumption that, based on the experiences of others, my best course of action is to be careful crossing the road.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d
27
17949 · December 18, 2011 at 11:32 PM

Some relevant posts by Chris Masterhacks

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/12/when-standing-at-brink-of-abyss-staring.html

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/08/against-dietary-dogmatism.html

How many people have done a diet for 5 years, felt great for a few of them because they eliminated junk food and started to get more of some nutrients, but then ran into problems because of a deficiency in other nutrients? How many people have made a whole host of changes and have had good results, but in reality only ever needed to make a couple of changes and make the others in vain? Your personal experience isn't worth beans (and on paleohacks that ain't worth much!) Most people aren't the least bit objective about their personal experience and have selective memory. I know that's all many people have, but maybe they should look into changing that if they want to be persuasive. To be able to persuade others effectively, it requires a presentation of evidence that can be verified by both parties. A good question to ask is "Do I sound like a fruitarian here?" if the answer is yes, changes should probably be made.

7255a87872b75e6f691d84dca769b87e
0 · December 27, 2011 at 8:49 PM

'"Do I sound like a fruititarian?"' xD

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:18 PM

stabby, stabbin and stompin as stabby is wont to do...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:23 AM

Well stabbed Stabby

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:50 PM

Stabby, great stabbing points. Especially the long-term issue -- I don't know if I'll be doing as swell next year as I am this year. And of course, nobody else knows that about themselves either. We're all gambling with our lives, even those who think they're playing it safe. For now, I actually take a bit of refuge in the lack of data on long-term extreme low-carbing (you can't *prove* it's bad for me, lol), but ultimately that's a lack I'd like to see addressed. And for other ways of eating too, of course.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e
22
20519 · December 18, 2011 at 11:36 PM

Such perfect timing Rose! As always, wonderfully said.

Ironic that you posted this today as I was so utterly frustrated this morning when after my workout, conversation started about Paleo and potatoes, OH NO THE POTATO, were brought up. I said I ate them. One of the guys said bluntly and point blank "potatoes aren't Paleo." Oh sweet jam, seriously? SERIOUSLY?!?! Yet another shut down know it all opinion from someone who has been Paleo for less than 3 months. I tried to coax him into a productive open minded conversation with "oh.. who told you that?" And shut down yet again with "a book." Thank god I was able to whip out some info quickly and with a smile saying how about checking out some additional information re: safe starches and anytime would love to discuss.

I don't know everything and I like that. Tinkering with "my" Paleo is a great joy to me. Yes, I'm a nerd Anyway, it's why I frequent PH as I may learn something new re: books, diet, science, new methods of nipple massage. PH is, to me, a nice part of the Paleo oyster. But those questions and statements that fall into the "shut down/know it all" category just don't make it fruitful - just frustrating.

Everyone has an opinion and huzzah if they have confidence in what worked for them. But it's not difficult to keep an open mind because knowledge is knowledge - whether or not we agree with it. You never know, thought processes can change and expand with just a few words that register in the right way. Hopefully a positive way!

Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:37 AM

Re: nipple massage, I contend that Shari already taught me everything I need to know.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493
16
11099 · December 18, 2011 at 11:24 PM

Amen Sister! What I have loved since I've found this paleo way of eating is how much I've been able to experiment, tweak, shift and flow with my own body's constantly changing needs. I think that self experimentation and a curiosity to seek answers beyond what we've heard in the mainstream our whole lives is at the heart of what it means to be healthy...We're all so different that the whole "this is the magic pill for all that ails you" thing just doesn't jive...it's just not ever going to be true that the exact same diet could possibly be optimal for ALL people! I'd love to see us as a community lose the judgement, and open our hearts and minds, that's the only way the answers can reveal themselves.

85026a0abe715229761956fbbee1cba0
0 · December 24, 2011 at 2:46 AM

And Josh, do you chase your tail incessantly and eat your own poop? :P

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM

I am very much like my dog, I try to eat when I am hungry and I eat what I am naturally meant to eat, sleep when I am tired, play when I feel playful and when I get stressed I go lay in the shade.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:07 AM

Isn't that why we're going for Ancestral these days? I just personally find it a whole lot more meaningful to identify and acknowledge the compromises I'm making and being honest with myself. Am I cheating for a good reason? Am I allowing fruit so that I don't have to waste time baking squash? Did I really try every option and get all the information before writing off low/high carb? There's no right or wrong answers to these questions sure, but I don't think it's anti-thetical to the paleo movement to ask them to ourselves all the same.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:00 AM

No we would call them WAPFs and love them just as much. I know you're not missing my point but just want to banter. Look no one really has all the answers. I'm not convinced anyone has any answers many days. This is all new thinking and new ideas keep coming out every day. No one has the final say on any of this yet. We're just not to that point. We agree on real, whole foods making up the bulk of the diet and that industrial oils may not be the best choice. Beyond that it's high carb/ZC/low carb/ no such thing as a carb/Immune protocol/No cheats/20% cheats/fruit/no fruit...PALEO!

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:41 PM

I'd just naturally suppose that it's more than likely no two people are ever exposed to the exact same set of inputs. "It's genetics" is an easy get-out clause that we learned from CW. Be nice to throw a bit more rigour at the things we can actually control first.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:37 PM

Well, yes, it's true that we're more alike than not. I'm more like my adoptive mom than I am like my dog. Yet I got fat eating the same diet she stayed lean on, and I got lean and healthy eating more like my dog, lol. Part of the reason we're in this quandary is that it's clear different people respond to the same inputs differently, so while I like to smirk at the "precious snowflake" business too, I have to admit there's some truth in it.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:27 PM

On the other hand, we are all by definition alike to a remarkable degree. I think a lot of our current confusion is rooted in our attempts as a species to divorce ourselves from the rest of the animal kingdom. Not everyone who reads about paleo suddenly becomes a first-class researcher or experimentalist. Some questions do have objective answers, and some people who come here would rather get those than a lot of well-meaning encouragement to go out there and discover it for themselves.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
13
24271 · December 18, 2011 at 11:13 PM

I kiss the ground you walk on Rose.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157
0 · December 19, 2011 at 5:47 PM

Kissing the ground is a great way to get probiotics. Shari's answer is not silly even though Shari is a dummy.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 2:31 AM

Sounds like somebody could use a nap.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:39 AM

@AndyM, yes someone mentioned the other day that the silly answers are getting more votes than truly helpful ones. Wish we could distinguish.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM

I was just questioning this being the highest ranking answer Nance.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:57 PM

I wasn't thinking of a particular person, AndyM, but I do think some of the conversations have been cranky lately. Not open-minded, not exploratory, just combative. In the area of "This is what I think and if you don't agree you're wrong." That's not helpful.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:46 PM

Shari - please don't talk about Kamal that way!

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:36 PM

Sorry but, helpful? Not being cranky but...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:25 PM

+1 Me too, Rose! I've been starting to think some folks are just cranky--too much holiday stress? Not enough carbs? (Just kidding!) :-))

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:24 PM

You and the filthmeister need to stay out of this one. Do not soil the golden ground of the Rose with your disgusting thoughts.

6714718e2245e5190017d643a7614157
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:22 PM

+1 I think I also heard Aravindan mention a few other things you kiss also.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64
8
11478 · December 18, 2011 at 11:55 PM

Great question Rose! My answer is that most of the time the community will decide with the voting mechanism when something crosses a line into arrogance, presumptuousness, etc. For example this recent question, which illustrates your point, is currently sitting at -7.

I agree with your implied point that questions should be different from answers. A loaded question is not really a question. I believe we should save our "sharp repartee" for answers and comments.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 19, 2011 at 4:46 PM

Yeah, I probably skated a little close to the loaded edge myself in this call-out, er, question. But you're right, the votes generally do seem inversely proportional to the degree of sincere questioning.

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242
4
7275 · December 18, 2011 at 11:23 PM

Yes, we should! The biochemical/physiological differences between people is amazing to me. I am constantly reminding myself that others' experiences could be vastly different than mine.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
2
5332 · December 18, 2011 at 11:24 PM

I think there's an issue of wanting Paleo to be all things to all people. There is a variety of experience, but there is also a paleo consensus on the best approach to many things. If you're aware that your experience is in the minority then I think it is responsible to acknowledge that if you share it, after all this isn't a general diet/health/lifestyle discussion forum - it's a place to ask questions specifically about paleo, and for the most part people want the 'official' or consensus answer.

I think we should be more willing to say that paleo doesn't necessarily work in all aspects for us rather than trying to claim our own approach as being just as paleo as anyone else's. The name's really shouldn't matter that much. And people could perhaps do better to present multiple points of view in their answers rather than trying to deny any controversy.

85026a0abe715229761956fbbee1cba0
0 · December 19, 2011 at 1:55 AM

@ albert Your profile says you are "exited" by paleo. I think more people over forty-45 consider Paleo "exciting", then the younger ones.Isn't it damn "exciting to be going backward in age,while everyone else around you is aging at an alarming pace. The joy of not being one of those fast aging contemporaries, is "exciting". And by the way, what does that answer above mean?

0a2dd50f2d3951bf3fb83fc4638c9512
0 · December 19, 2011 at 1:02 AM

(taking a shower, shaving and putting on a nice tie for potatoes)

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:08 AM

Isn't that why we're going for Ancestral these days? I just personally find it a whole lot more meaningful to identify and acknowledge the compromises I'm making and being honest with myself. Am I cheating for a good reason? Am I allowing fruit so that I don't have to waste time baking squash? Did I really try every option and get all the information before writing off low/high carb? There's no right or wrong answers to these questions sure, but I don't think it's anti-thetical to the paleo movement to ask them to ourselves all the same.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:07 AM

No we would call them WAPFs and love them just as much. I know you're not missing my point but just want to banter. Look no one really has all the answers. I'm not convinced anyone has any answers many days. This is all new thinking and new ideas keep coming out every day. No one has the final say on any of this yet. We're just not to that point. We agree on real, whole foods making up the bulk of the diet and that industrial oils may not be the best choice. Beyond that it's high carb/ZC/low carb/ no such thing as a carb/Immune protocol/No cheats/20% cheats/fruit/no fruit...PALEO!

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:55 PM

Amen, Shari .

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:43 PM

What if your decision is that your ancestors have been grinding bread for thousands of years, and you feel like crap after only a few hours if you don't eat wheat, so you're going to eat bread at every meal? Is THAT paleo?

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:34 PM

Cordain says potatoes aren't paleo. If we can't reach consensus on a damn potato then we have some inherent problems we need to address and one solution is to open our arms a bit wider instead of closing them together. I think we need to allow people to call themselves paleo if they are taking dietary guidance based on ancestral evidence. The end. Full stop. You look at that evidence, seek guidance,,if needed, from others who have done the same then you make the best decisions you can for your body and your life. THAT is paleo.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5
1
8879 · December 19, 2011 at 3:15 PM

Rose, I've tried going zero carb after seeing all these wonderful testimonials at Charles Washington's site. At the time I was very gung ho LC I might add, though a bit burnt out and not really relishing giving up my veggies. But it did not agree with me! Physically (digestive distress!), and certainly mentally. VLC for long stretches, yes. ZC? Nope. Personally, based on all I've read over the past almost three years now, it's just not a diet I would recommend for the long haul, unless someone is of Inuit ancestry, lives in an arctic climate and consumes native cold-water fish and mammals. But I try to avoid giving advice past the "you might want to try" and "this worked for me" and share the scientific information as I find it.

I think folks who thrive on ZC are outliers. Just as I believe the Durian Riders of the world are as well. I'm quite sure IF I could eat 30 bananas in a day I wouldn't be transformed into some female version of Harley and more than ZC would turn me into a female Charles Washington.

For the record, I have lots of nice things to say about low carbing. How could I not for something that was key to significant weight loss? It's low carb pseudoscience I oppose and even the notion that humans evolved to eat little or no starch and sugar is ludicrous. Less than the SAD, well DUH!! But none? Riiiiigghhht. I cannot for the life of me understand why advocates -- who are such sticklers for science and rant on about misinformed doctors and government officials -- don't just stick to advocating the good without making shit up to gin up book sales and sell supplements and such. Misinformation is misinformation. It is not acceptable to me. It's no more acceptable than the cholesterol hoax, and it should not be tolerated, especially by those seeking mainstream acceptance of the dietary lifestyle. Mainstream acceptance will not come from this approach, and it ultimately undermines it.

Sorry for the rant there. I thought of hitting the X button on the browser, but since I took the time to write this, there it is. Peace :-)

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 22, 2011 at 12:47 AM

Satya, not everyone who is a ZCer has a "fear" of carbohydrate. I have *experience* that shows me, time and again, that even small quantities of carbohydrate, even in the form of vegetables and cream, bring joint pain and weight gain very quickly. Mocking others' experience, or devaluing it as "fear," is exactly what I'm taking aim at with this question. It's like telling a kid with a peanut allergy that he needs to get over his unreasonable aversion to peanuts. Quite reckless. IMHO.

7b11ed525ffa23bc7257684e27488a6a
0 · December 21, 2011 at 8:20 PM

Good answer. Demonizing substances that are required by the body - like cholesterol and glucose (for vegans and zcers, respectively) - is just not healthy, imho. Now, if you choose to eat as an outlier without the fear of every carb (or saturated fat or cholesterol molecule), then great. But I think when fear is a factor in the choosing of foods, then it's unfortunate. Weight loss should not be the end all of an eating plan. Sound nutrition should be, imho.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5
0 · December 21, 2011 at 12:50 PM

@thhq: It was sort-of me I guess. I've said I don't understand why folks want to follow a diet that transforms (if it does actually do what it's supposed to do) one's metabolism into that of an old, fat person. I'll add diabetic to that list as well as diabetics also have low RQ. If eating meat/fat makes one lean, I suppose more power to them to bank on that leading to longevity. I'm not going to construct my nutritional philosophy on experiments in worms that can all but suspend metabolism completely for long periods.

Thumbnail avatar
0 · December 19, 2011 at 7:59 PM

@evelyn, was it you that called the meat/fat diet an old man's diet? LC works for almost anyone to escape diabetes (and ADA's carb exchange counting predates Atkins by decades) and obesity, but once you're out of that the macros aren't as important. The scaremongering used to promote continued eating skewed macros irks me, especially because it is so driven towards selling supplements, diet plans and books. I exercise so that I can eat a young man's diet again, and that's not piles of pork chops at every meal.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7
0 · December 19, 2011 at 4:18 PM

Glad you didn't delete it; it's a good rant. I agree that I'm probably an outlier, along with some others who do well on ZC. I know of too many people who didn't thrive on ZC to be a zealot about it. And the cacaphony of scientific and pseudo-scientific voices drowning each other out is the reason I don't blindly follow research, but stick to my own experience instead. Even research that seems to make sense can be wrong for reasons we just don't understand yet (well, that I don't understand, anyway).

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa
1
2936 · December 18, 2011 at 11:23 PM

When someone makes a statement, as Evelyn did, that there is NO evidence that hominids were carnivores, I think they should have their eyelids propped open, like in Clockwork Orange, and be forced to read this:

http://tinyurl.com/3jqbmuo

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc
0 · December 19, 2011 at 12:08 AM

Paleo2.0 that's hilarious. I can't stop laughing.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:56 PM

Huey, I don't see your point with that url. Also, I don't know if performing a Clockwork Orange procedure on people who disagree with you is exactly what Rose is talking about.

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:31 PM

I think I did that once already. Got a little bit sick on too much tallowy bone broth. are you saying I should gorge myself silly often enough to measure the results? Yuck! Do you do that?

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63
0 · December 18, 2011 at 11:27 PM

You recently made a statement that excess dietary fat does not get stored as fat. Go eat 5000kcal of VLC food and report back.

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